Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is very logical, the most logical thing I have ever heard.
Jesus cannot be the moshiach because Jesus did not do any of the things the Jewish scriptures say the moshiach will do.
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Resurrected Christ: So what? Still not the Messiah?
- Thread starter Mythos40
- Start date
Jesus cannot be the moshiach because Jesus did not do any of the things the Jewish scriptures say the moshiach will do.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Since Baha'is do believe Jesus is the Messiah, what prophesies did he fulfill?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus was "a Messiah" but Jesus was not "the Messiah" of the latter days, not the Promised One of All Ages.
I really do not know all the prophecies Jesus fulfilled, not my specialty...
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Matt 1:22-23Jesus was "a Messiah" but Jesus was not "the Messiah" of the latter days, not the Promised One of All Ages.
I really do not know all the prophecies Jesus fulfilled, not my specialty...
22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
Matt 2:4-5(W)here the Messiah was to be born. 5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they replied, “for this is what the prophet has written:
Matt 2:13-15“take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.” 14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
Matt 2:16-18Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled:
18 “A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
Matt 2:2318 “A voice is heard in Ramah,
weeping and great mourning,
weeping for her children
and refusing to be comforted,
because they are no more.”
(H)e (Joseph, and the family) went and lived in a town called Nazareth. So was fulfilled what was said through the prophets, that he would be called a Nazarene.
Matthew is a goldmine of prophesies, unfortunately... when I looked up the quoted Bible verses, most of them were very much out of context... including the "virgin" birth one.
Muffled
Jesus in me
That is not going to happen, EVER. People are leaving Christianity in droves in the most educated nations in the world. The only reason Christianity has any growth at all is because Christians still try to convert in other parts of the world, but people who are educated will no longer believe in the superstitious doctrines of the Church.
It is too bad Jesus got all mixed up in this, because none of this was His fault, since He was dead by the time the Church misconstrued what he said and made up the doctrines.... It is a mess that is now impossible to clean up... Like I said on another forum yesterday, Christianity is like a car that is toast and needs a complete overhaul... Baha’u’llah came to do that overhaul and there is no way Christians can stop what God has already set in motion...
The growth rates from 1910-2010 are as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, Baha’i 3.54%.
Growth of religion - Wikipedia
Hopefully, you can do the math.
I believe God is also weeding out the losers. Jesus called it the separation of the goats from the sheep.
I believe It happens all the time even in the US.
I believe I am educated and am not superstitious.
I believe that is unsupportable nonsense.
I believe if that was what he was trying to do he did not succeed but that will not keep deluded people from believing in a useless religion.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Jesus was "a Messiah" but Jesus was not "the Messiah" of the latter days, not the Promised One of All Ages.
I really do not know all the prophecies Jesus fulfilled, not my specialty...
I don't believe you have any evidence for that.
Yes, Jews would not have considered him the messiah (and executed him according to the Biblical accounts). But Christians modified the usage of the term Messiah to match what Christ did. Similar to John changing the word "logos".
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Believe whatever you want to... Beliefs do not change reality. Jesus is not coming back, NOT EVER.
It’s been done. Baha’u’llah was the Return of Christ, the Messiah, the Promise of All Ages.
“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.
In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself. This same verse is followed by these words: “And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that Day.” This is the Day which the Pen of the Most High hath glorified in all the holy Scriptures. There is no verse in them that doth not declare the glory of His holy Name, and no Book that doth not testify unto the loftiness of this most exalted theme. Were We to make mention of all that hath been revealed in these heavenly Books and holy Scriptures concerning this Revelation, this Tablet would assume impossible dimensions. It is incumbent in this Day, upon every man to place his whole trust in the manifold bounties of God, and arise to disseminate, with the utmost wisdom, the verities of His Cause. Then, and only then, will the whole earth be enveloped with the morning light of His Revelation.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-14
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Post all the evidence you have that Jesus the Christ is the Messiah.
For each 1 you give, we will offer 1 to match and 1extra in return for Baha'u'llah.
Also we could add an extra bonus sourced from all the Worlds Religious Scriptures.
We could thus prove if what you believe about evidence has any foundation.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Okay, so Jesus wasn't "The Messiah". Baha'is say he didn't physically rise from the dead. He didn't fulfill the prophesies about what the Messiah was to accomplish. Baha'is don't believe all the verses in the NT are authentic. So what did Jesus do? Is there anything that Christians believe about him true?
Jesus the Christ brought us back to God. Jesus sacrificed His Life so we could rise above our sinful nature and become one with each other in the Love of God. Jesus came so we could acheive this and by doing so would be prepared for this day.
That Life and Sacrafice is such a great bounty to us all.
This is the promissed 'Day of God', the day when all the Earth is immersed in the 'Glory of God'.
Regards Tony
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Who did Jesus bring back to God? Baha'is don't believe the Catholics or most Protestants when they say that Jesus is God, along with the Father and Holy Spirit. And who has risen above their sinful nature and become one? Baha'is are quick to point out how divided Christians are. There is no becoming "one". And what about a "sinful" nature? I thought Baha'is believed that people are born pure or something? But Christians don't think that. They believe in the Fall of Adam and an inherited sin nature. And the only way to restore a relationship to God is by accepting the atoning sacrifice for your sins by Jesus. Do Baha'is believe that? I don't think so. So pretty much everything about Jesus as taught by Christians, from the NT, isn't true... according to Baha'i beliefs.
So getting back to the OP, why do you believe he is the Messiah? Oh yeah, the OP says in spite of being resurrected, he did not do what the Messiah was supposed to do. But that's no problem, because Baha'is don't believe he rose from the dead in a literal way. So he what exactly did he do? He didn't save sinners from their sins, because there is no inherited sin nature. He didn't rise from the dead physically. And he didn't fulfill the Messianic prophecies.
Those that accept Jesus as the Christ.
When Muhammad gave His Message, those that see Christ's Message in the Koran.
Then when the Bab and Baha'u'llah gave God's Message for this day, those that see Christ in all Gods Messengers, Names and Attributes.
The Messianic promises are fulfilled
Regards Tony
Axe Elf
Prophet
Just to keep you busy for a while, here are 40...
Top 40 Most Helpful Messianic Prophecies - Jews for Jesus
Go.
Regards Tony
Doing it that way is definitely time saving,
here these links should also keep you busy, you will find that quotes that are attributed to Christ are actually just as valid reference to the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Baha'i: Prophecy Fulfilled Homepage
Regards Tony
Axe Elf
Prophet
Pfft. Those are nothing like the prophecies I provided, where it shows documentation of the prophecy and its fulfillment by Jesus. Most of what you have provided are just links to commentaries on this scripture or that--and in any case, you have not nearly fulfilled your promise of 40 pieces of evidence that Jesus is NOT the Messiah, along with 40 more from the Baha'i faith, along with a bonus 40 from the world's religions.
I was just curious to see if you could.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Jesus was "a Messiah" but Jesus was not "the Messiah" of the latter days, since Jesus has NOT returned and fulfilled all of the OT prophecies... Baha'u'llah by contrast has fulfilled all the prophecies for the Returm of Christ/Messiah and the rest of the prophecies for the Messianic Age will be fulfilled as the result of His Coming.
For one example, Jesus did not fulfill any of these prophecies. The only way that Jesus could be the Messiah of the latter days would be if Jesus fulfilled these prophecies upon His Return. Is Jesus going to have children and “see His seed” as Baha’u’llah did? Then there is the slight little problem of Mount Carmel... How did the World Centre of the Baha’i Faith get there? Why is it there? Is Jesus going to tear it all down and build His own buildings when he returns to rule the world as Christians believe He will?
There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.
Isaiah had foretold:
1. “He is despised and rejected of men: a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief …” Isaiah 53:3.
- Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.
- The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.
- I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.
4. “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” Isaiah 53:5
- Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.
- Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.
- Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.
- Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:
- “Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28
- The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the Centre of his Covenant.
“He (God) shall prolong his days …” Isaiah 53:10.
- Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.
- These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes (4:14):
Axe Elf
Prophet
You're probably addressing the wrong person. Unless you're promising to do something as exciting as @Tony Bristow-Stagg did--offering to return three prophecies for one--I'm really not all that interested in scrutinizing the matter. But it shouldn't be hard to find someone who does; people will argue about anything around here.