Religious involvement in marriage

[Katzpur]

It is because atheists marry one another because they actually love the person - they do not get married to fulfill some religious or social requirement (like Mormons do - Mormon believe they cannot go to heaven unless they get married etc.)

Seriously? That's utter nonsense and you know it. Just because you're no longer LDS, it doesn't mean you have to start lying about the Church. What has leaving the Church turned you into?

 

[Katzpur]

^This is just false information. LDS marriage vows are made by people who have already sworn to God Himself to cleave and be sexually involved with no one but their spouse (future spouse in the case of people who aren't yet married). A person raised LDS will literally make this promise to God at the age of eight and it is expect that you'll keep to it. Sexual relations outside of marriage are *extremely* frowned upon. All in all, I don't know of a single faith that is MORE focused on fidelity to your spouse than LDS.

You are absolutely 100% correct. Idea's post was intentionally deceptive and misleading. How someone can do such a 180° is beyond me. Talk about going way, way off the deep end. Nothing good is ever going to come from an attitude like that.

 

[Kenny]

In your religious faith, does your religious organization require obedience/vows/commitment to the organization as part of its marriage vows? - ie - you are not allowed to just make a commitment to a person, you have to commit to the religious organization? The organization forces itself between you and your spouse?

For those of you who put God first - it seems like you would not have as close of a relationship with your spouse...


I was married in the Mormon church, have now left the church, and am feeling horrible about my marriage vows:
Mormon Temple Marriage Ceremony

Mormons do not include " forsaking all others" as part of their vows - the vows is to the "new and everlasting - polygamous - covenant", so there is no loyalty to your spouse, no vow of commitment to any single person, it is nothing more than a commitment to an organization which is sickening.

I am navigating a mixed-faith relationship (I have left the church, spouse has not) - anyone else out there in a mixed-faith marriage? Do you feel your religious organization comes between family members, forces itself between people - holds itself to be more important than human-to-human real relationships?

What should a marriage vow be?

No, I don't think obedience to an organization is part of a marriage vows. It is commitment to God and to your spouse, yes.

It was by putting God first that saved our marriage and enhance our marriage. I'm not sure how it would hinder it.

My sister was a Mormon too.

I love the story of the woman at the well. Having had 5 marriages and the man she was living with was not her husband.

What was Jesus' answer to the problem? Not condemnation but simply "Drink from the living waters of my life".

What a beautiful answer of and from love.

 

[Segev Moran]

In your religious faith, does your religious organization require obedience/vows/commitment to the organization as part of its marriage vows?

No (Jewish), it does however have a religious ceremony that bonds you in a religious marriage.

- ie - you are not allowed to just make a commitment to a person, you have to commit to the religious organization?

In Israel (where i live), a marriage without a religious ceremony is not yet considered marriage.
You do not get all the benefits of being married religiously.
You can however declare in a court of law that you are the husband or wife of X, but it is a bureaucracy process.

The organization forces itself between you and your spouse?

Not at all. and the ceremony is very emotional and thrilling. once you are married, apart from the "binding document", the religious way of life is your decision and no one intervenes.

For those of you who put God first - it seems like you would not have as close of a relationship with your spouse...

I disagree.
How can one believe in God and not put it first?
You wont have a relationship at all without God.
If else, managing marriage life as suggested by the Jewish (the proper Jewish religion) can do wonders to your marriage.
I am divorced, and only after discovering the Jewish religion i understand how many mistakes I have done in my marriage.
I wish every couple to have the wisdom of understanding the smarts of marriage as suggest by God's ways.

I was married in the Mormon church, have now left the church, and am feeling horrible about my marriage vows:
Mormon Temple Marriage Ceremony

Mormons do not include " forsaking all others" as part of their vows - the vows is to the "new and everlasting - polygamous - covenant", so there is no loyalty to your spouse, no vow of commitment to any single person, it is nothing more than a commitment to an organization which is sickening.

In Jewish religion you don't have an actual vows, you sanctify your wife. it is actually a very strong and powerful moment imo. you actually sanctify your bond to one another, making her and yourself one soul (as an idea)

I am navigating a mixed-faith relationship (I have left the church, spouse has not) - anyone else out there in a mixed-faith marriage?

Not me I was an atheist and she was not, but both not religious.

Do you feel your religious organization comes between family members, forces itself between people - holds itself to be more important than human-to-human real relationships?

God no! The bond between man and wife is one of the strongest bonds in the Jewish religion.
For that matter, the Jewish religion "preaches" to treat others as best as you can, regardless of their beliefs.
I find it sad that a religious organization can come between people (we also have that in the Jewish communities of course, but it is in contrast to what the Jewish religion teaches you)

What should a marriage vow be?

To be the best person you can in order to make your other the person he/she can.
To become one minded, one entity while maintaining and respecting the individual of each.
To support and to encourage.
To provide and to nourish.
ETC... you get the point

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's a bit like asking if you love your spouse or your children more. You simply love them in different ways. It's not like there is a limit on how much love you have.

Now in terms of who has ranking authority in marriage, that's a different question. If God says don't steal, and the spouse says to cheat on the income taxes, God is the higher authority.

 

[Trackdayguy]

It's not like there is a limit on how much love you have.

I like your comment. Without wanting to de-rail this post why is that most people see that this comment is ok loving God & loving our spouse, but had HUGE problems with it when I shared that I was in a Poly relationship.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I like your comment. Without wanting to de-rail this post why is that most people see that this comment is ok loving God & loving our spouse, but had HUGE problems with it when I shared that I was in a Poly relationship.

There are PRACTICAL problems with having more than one spouse. Does one have the financial resources to support more than one? And can one find enough QUALITY time to spend with both, especially if one has children? It's not that you can't have strong affection for two mates (some can't and some can), it's that if you aren't independently wealthy, you can't care for them. And then arises the natural jealousies of the two mates -- it's just human nature.

In societies where polygamy exists, it has by no means existed universally. Only those men with rank, prosperity, and the accompanying free time have had multiple wives. That pretty much means that the scores of typical Joe Blows have been monogamous.

In Judaism, polygamy is not considered a sin. However, it became prohibited by Rabbeinu Gershom ben Judah at the turn of the first millennium, and that decree is now recognized by almost all Jewish groups (there are some very wealthy middle eastern Jews who are still polygamous).

When I was a young mother, one of my regular babysitters was a teenager who was the daughter of a polygamous veteran. He had married his first wife in the US. Then when he went to Vietnam, he married a second wife in a Buddhist ceremony. When he brought her and the kids to the US, we didn't recognize the marriage. She is simply looked upon by the US as his kept woman. It is a complicated and ugly situation. The two wives are very competitive, and at least the Vietnamese family felt he treated the American family much better. My babysitter was very unhappy. She felt like she never had time with her dad, and things were always financially strapped because of the situation. You can't blame her for feeling resentful.

A person can't help their feelings. But feelings don't rule our actions.

 

[idea]

^This is just false information. LDS marriage vows are made by people who have already sworn to God Himself to cleave and be sexually involved with no one but their spouse .....

How many wives did Joseph Smith have again? Faithful??? Faithful??? He went behind Emma's back, cheated on her and called it holy.

If you think the likes of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Warren Jeffs - if you think that is faithful, think again...

Listen to the temple vows again - there is no vow to be a one-and-only, it is a DC132 vow, a new and everlasting vow of polygamy - there is no "in sickness and in health", no "love", nothing but polygamy - even in the "no sexual relations unless with your wives - plural - not singular - not "wife" - it is plural - wives - nothing but polygamy in the temple covenants and ceremonies.

Every "faithful" Mormon man spends their married life fantasizing about all the additional wives they will have - if you don't think that is true, you are naive.

You are absolutely 100% correct. Idea's post was intentionally deceptive and misleading. How someone can do such a 180° is beyond me. Talk about going way, way off the deep end. Nothing good is ever going to come from an attitude like that.

Polygamy is absolutely 100% still going on in the Mormon church. The current prophet - president Nelson - is sealed to two different women. The covenants in the temple revolve 100% around polygamy. entrance to the celestial kingdom is only possible through the "new and everlasting" polygamy covenant....

 

[idea]

My husband and I are both Baha'is and have never been members of any other religion. He was raised Christian but it never took; I was raised in no religion with no God belief. He has been a Baha'i for 53 years, me for 48.

Who do I love more, God or my husband? Well, I am mad at both of them a lot of the time but I guess I love them because I would not want to be without either one of them.

I would not say I have a relationship with God... How does one have a relationship with the Unseen?

Love it - love that your faith allows you the freedom of being mad at God - a healthy love/hate relationship.

I agree, hard to have a relationship with the Unseen - seems like those who put God first are only putting their own personal idea of God first - their own speculations, their personal beliefs - their philosophies first...

It's better to love what is real - love an actual person, than love your opinion of who God is or your opinion of some imagined being.... Easy to love what you imagine God to be, harder to love a real flesh and blood person - but real is better than imagination.

 

[idea]

No, I don't think obedience to an organization is part of a marriage vows. It is commitment to God and to your spouse, yes.

It was by putting God first that saved our marriage and enhance our marriage. I'm not sure how it would hinder it.

My sister was a Mormon too.

I love the story of the woman at the well. Having had 5 marriages and the man she was living with was not her husband.

What was Jesus' answer to the problem? Not condemnation but simply "Drink from the living waters of my life".

What a beautiful answer of and from love.

The woman at the well is beautiful - as painful as my faith transition has been (anger at lies and abuse within the church) I have been really trying hard to separate the wheat from the tares - there is a lot of beautiful things within mainstream Christianity that I still love very much.

Yes, those who seek a monogamous committed relationship, many Christian teaching apply to - forgiveness, humility, faithfulness, honesty, work ethics etc.

I think healthy morals are good for all people - religious or not - married or not - adhering to the natural laws that promote the herd sort of a thing. Survival of the fittest vs. survival of the herd - communal well-being takes the selfless route.

 

[idea]

I don't think it's a valid question for me, because God and spouse aren't opposites that detract from each other. If they are, well, just my opinion but is it healthy?

That is wonderful - wish I could have a healthy and happy opinion of God. So long as your personal beliefs do not pit spouse against God, that is a great place to be in.

I feel as though I love my wife and God equally, i’ve never felt as though I had to choose between the two even though we are from different faiths (Baha’i/Hindu).

Kind regards

Wow - many here from the Baha’i faith! Baha’i/Hindu, interesting combination - I do love the idea of reincarnation. An infinite number of lives to experience and understand everything, that does seem the best plan for progression.... never really understood the Christian atonement - sure, forgive someone, but that does not suddenly change their character or give them the experience/knowledge they need to enjoy enlightenment.

God comes first. God before all things. Heck, no human being would even exist were it not for the ever sustaining will of God. To recognize that God is infinitely beyond any creature in no way renders you incapable genuine love for other humans. It in fact helps you recognize their dignity being in the very image of that god.

Nonetheless a human being is a human being. A creature destined to return to the dust. And while I may care for some human beings very deeply (even to the point of my life) no human being is worth the loss of the eternal vision of the infinite. Nor is anything else whatsoever in the entire physical cosmos. God and God alone is capable of infinite love.

If God is love personified - to re-write and say:

"Love comes first. Love before all things. Heck, no human being would even exist were it not for the ever sustaining Love. To recognize that Love is infinitely beyond any creature in no way renders you incapable genuine love for other humans. It in fact helps you recognize their dignity being in the very image of that Love."

There is only one vow required of a prospective bride and groom before two witnesses:

"We will all verily abide by the will of God."

More on Baha'i marriages:

"Bahá'í marriage is union and cordial affection between the two parties. They must, however, exercise the utmost care and become acquainted with each other's character. This eternal bond should be made secure by a firm covenant, and the intention should be to foster harmony, fellowship and unity and to attain everlasting life...

In a true Bahá'í marriage the two parties must become fully united both spiritually and physically, so that they may attain eternal union throughout all the worlds of God, and improve the spiritual life of each other. This is Bahá'í matrimony."


Also see:


Marriage, Bahá'í


~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 372


Baha'i marriage ceremonies are free of charge and can occur any where. Non- Baha'is can also request a Baha'i marriage. Usually the Local Spiritual Assembly is contacted should you wish to have a Baha'i ceremony.


My wife and I will be celebrating forty five years of marriage this December!

Congratulations on 45 years!! That is beautiful!!

I do have mixed feelings on the idea "united in all things" - is is possible to love and be married to someone who has different spiritual affiliations? would that lead to more interesting conversations? a more selfless love (rather than just loving those who are the same as you)?

or - does shared beliefs create a better union? I can theoretically see benefits to both.

 

[Trailblazer]

Love it - love that your faith allows you the freedom of being mad at God - a healthy love/hate relationship.

I agree, hard to have a relationship with the Unseen - seems like those who put God first are only putting their own personal idea of God first - their own speculations, their personal beliefs - their philosophies first...

It's better to love what is real - love an actual person, than love your opinion of who God is or your opinion of some imagined being.... Easy to love what you imagine God to be, harder to love a real flesh and blood person - but real is better than imagination.

Thanks, I never thought of it that way but maybe that is part of my problem.... The only way I can know God is through the Messengers God sends to represent Him, so basically I am loving what they are saying about how God loves us and all that, all of which I can only read about in scriptures... The upshot of this is that I have no idea what people mean by loving God, but I sure know when I am mad at God and hating God. Isn't that kind of strange?

So I think people love what they believe God to be, their image of God, as presented in scriptures. But I cannot get all excited about that for some reason.... I hope God can forgive me for that, somehow I think that he does forgive me for that and for all I horrible things I say to and about Him when I am mad... It sure seems like that is the only time He ever listens to me because things usually improve after my tirades.

 

[idea]

Thanks, I never thought of it that way but maybe that is part of my problem.... The only way I can know God is through the Messengers God sends to represent Him, so basically I am loving what they are saying about how God loves us and all that, all of which I can only read about in scriptures... The upshot of this is that I have no idea what people mean by loving God, but I sure know when I am mad at God and hating God. Isn't that kind of strange?

So I think people love what they believe God to be, their image of God, as presented in scriptures. But I cannot get all excited about that for some reason.... I hope God can forgive me for that, somehow I think that he does forgive me for that and for all I horrible things I say to and about Him when I am mad... It sure seems like that is the only time He ever listens to me because things usually improve after my tirades.

Strange thing - I have found things improve after tirades too...

When God's "messengers" did horrible things to my kids... and the other "messenger" stood by and did not stop it - that is when I left the Mormon church (See Sam Young's protect LDS children website)

I figure part of our spiritual journey happens in a community, and part happens as an individual - imperfect messengers force all of us to take that much needed individual journey.

I don't know if God is all-powerful or not (can't be with all the horror in the world, right?) I do believe in spirits - have had spiritual experiences... perhaps heaven is similar to earth - different countries, different groups of people, no one perfect, everyone just doing the best they can... if spirits are just dead people, that is all they are - just a bunch of people... so I pray, not to "Heavenly Father", but to any benevolent spirit who happens to be willing to take notice and help me out... prayers to anything out there that is loving...

love is such a hard thing to figure out - "be the change you want to see" I guess?

 

[Trailblazer]

Strange thing - I have found things improve after tirades too...

Maybe there is something to it. I do not ever plan it, I just get fed up.

When God's "messengers" did horrible things to my kids... and the other "messenger" stood by and did not stop it - that is when I left the Mormon church (See Sam Young's protect LDS children website)

I am sorry to hear about your kids....
What I mean by Messengers are Prophets who are sent by God (Baha'is usually call them Manifestations of God). We believe that they receive a direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit which comes to them in the form of an Angel. There are men in the Church who consider themselves messengers but Bahai's do not believe that anyone except those who get direct revelations can speak for God.

I figure part of our spiritual journey happens in a community, and part happens as an individual - imperfect messengers force all of us to take that much needed individual journey.

Baha'is are very community-oriented but I am an loner, a Trailblazer, so I do my own thing. I like conversing with the other Baha'is online though. It is a Bahai belief that our relationship with God is an individual thing and it cannot be conditioned by anyone else.

I don't know if God is all-powerful or not (can't be with all the horror in the world, right?) I do believe in spirits - have had spiritual experiences... perhaps heaven is similar to earth - different countries, different groups of people, no one perfect, everyone just doing the best they can... if spirits are just dead people, that is all they are - just a bunch of people... so I pray, not to "Heavenly Father", but to any benevolent spirit who happens to be willing to take notice and help me out... prayers to anything out there that is loving...

love is such a hard thing to figure out - "be the change you want to see" I guess?

I believe that God is All-Powerful, but humans have free will and God wants us to choose between good and evil and thereby we learn and grow and prepare ourselves fro the afterlife. I believe that the afterlife will be a spiritual world where our souls will go after our bodies die. Our souls will take on a new form, a spiritual body made up of spiritual elements. The nature of the soul and the afterlife is a mystery for the most part, but much has come through mediums who have communicated with spirits on the other side, and I tend to lend these credence since they are congruent with my Baha'i beliefs.

I have been working in a new thread that will have excerpts from a book I am reading called The Afterlife Revealed. It will be really revealing if I ever finish typing it up. The book is not online so it is a lot of typing but it is worth it because it dispels some of the religious myths about heaven and hell.

The spiritual world is different from this world in some ways but very different in other ways -- stay tuned to this forum channel for my new thread.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Every "faithful" Mormon man spends their married life fantasizing about all the additional wives they will have - if you don't think that is true, you are naive.

Idea, I'm sympathetic that you've had a rotten experience with life and have been caught up in a family with major abuse issues. I myself was sexually abused as a kid (not remotely church related), as I've shared with you earlier.

I'm sympathetic to your situation, but... frankly you're not being rational or factual here. I understand you're coming from a place of pain, but please, let us be factual here.

 

[idea]

Maybe there is something to it. I do not ever plan it, I just get fed up.

I am sorry to hear about your kids....
What I mean by Messengers are Prophets who are sent by God (Baha'is usually call them Manifestations of God). We believe that they receive a direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit which comes to them in the form of an Angel. There are men in the Church who consider themselves messengers but Bahai's do not believe that anyone except those who get direct revelations can speak for God.

Anyone who claims they speak for God - and no one else can, is dangerous ground in my opinion... only men? women are not allowed to get messages from God? I believe in personal revelation for all - and also believe no one can receive revelation for another. No one should have to "trust in the arms of flesh" - no middle-man - to me, that is the evil in many religious organizations, imperfect people wanting you to worship and listen to them instead of God, putting themselves between you and the spiritual side of life.

Baha'is are very community-oriented but I am an loner, a Trailblazer, so I do my own thing. I like conversing with the other Baha'is online though. It is a Bahai belief that our relationship with God is an individual thing and it cannot be conditioned by anyone else.

That sounds better!

I believe that God is All-Powerful, but humans have free will and God wants us to choose between good and evil and thereby we learn and grow and prepare ourselves fro the afterlife.

To me, the free will argument only covers half of it - most trials, pain, and suffering are not created by free will. Natural disasters, medical conditions etc. etc. quite a lot the no one chooses, quite a lot that does not refine - as a teacher I have very different educational methodologies than God I place blame in the hands of both the teacher, and the students, not just the students fault - see much of the problem as those who are not properly educated.

I believe that the afterlife will be a spiritual world where our souls will go after our bodies die. Our souls will take on a new form, a spiritual body made up of spiritual elements. The nature of the soul and the afterlife is a mystery for the most part, but much has come through mediums who have communicated with spirits on the other side, and I tend to lend these credence since they are congruent with my Baha'i beliefs.

I have been working in a new thread that will have excerpts from a book I am reading called The Afterlife Revealed. It will be really revealing if I ever finish typing it up. The book is not online so it is a lot of typing but it is worth it because it dispels some of the religious myths about heaven and hell.

The spiritual world is different from this world in some ways but very different in other ways -- stay tuned to this forum channel for my new thread.

I will stay tuned and check it out over the weekend - off to school taking the class to do volunteer work today, handing out food in a freezing parking lot, good times! Thanks for your kind replies, you seem like a neat thoughtful person.

 

[idea]

Idea, I'm sympathetic that you've had a rotten experience with life and have been caught up in a family with major abuse issues. I myself was sexually abused as a kid (not remotely church related), as I've shared with you earlier.

I'm sympathetic to your situation, but... frankly you're not being rational or factual here. I understand you're coming from a place of pain, but please, let us be factual here.

It is a fact that Joseph was a pedophile, it is a fact that Joseph and B.Y. can be compared - and inspired - warren jeffs. it is a fact that temple ceremonies are based on polygamy, and making covenants that revolve around polygamy - I am not making that up.

Secret temple ceremonies? Anyone considering Mormonism - do NOT go into anything you are not allowed to study, ponder, and pray about ahead of time. Do a google search for "transcript of Mormon temple ceremonies", read, study - do NOT just walk into a building unprepared, and ignorantly raise your hand and make covenants for things you did not know ahead of time and were not allowed to study for yourself. There is a reason it is "secret" and not disclosed - no one would walk in there and make covenants if they knew what they were getting themselves into ahead of time.

 

[idea]

~~~ Back on subject~~~~
Did you write your own marriage vows? or did your church write your vows for you???

What do you think is better, writing your own vows? or letting your church dictate what those vows should be?

 

[Katzpur]

It is a fact that Joseph was a pedophile, it is a fact that Joseph and B.Y. can be compared - and inspired - warren jeffs. it is a fact that temple ceremonies are based on polygamy, and making covenants that revolve around polygamy - I am not making that up.

It is absolutely not a fact that Joseph Smith was a pedophile. So let's look at the facts and not just start running off at the mouth here. Joseph married Helen Mar Kimball just a few months short of her 15th birthday. He had not been pursuing her. It wasn't even his idea to marry her. Her father, Heber C. Kimball, requested that she be sealed to Joseph. There is no evidence that the marriage was ever consummated. In point of fact, she continued to live at home with her parents after the sealing. Less than two years later, she married a young man she'd fallen in love with. They had twelve children together.

Secret temple ceremonies? Anyone considering Mormonism - do NOT go into anything you are not allowed to study, ponder, and pray about ahead of time. Do a google search for "transcript of Mormon temple ceremonies", read, study - do NOT just walk into a building unprepared, and ignorantly raise your hand and make covenants for things you did not know ahead of time and were not allowed to study for yourself. There is a reason it is "secret" and not disclosed - no one would walk in there and make covenants if they knew what they were getting themselves into ahead of time.

Apparently hundreds of thousands of people do. I did -- 48 years ago -- and have never regretted it. You did, and it apparently didn't bother you for years. Now all of a sudden, it's a big deal.

 

[Jane.Doe]

It is a fact that Joseph was a pedophile, it is a fact that Joseph and B.Y. can be compared - and inspired - warren jeffs. it is a fact that temple ceremonies are based on polygamy, and making covenants that revolve around polygamy - I am not making that up.

Secret temple ceremonies? Anyone considering Mormonism - do NOT go into anything you are not allowed to study, ponder, and pray about ahead of time. Do a google search for "transcript of Mormon temple ceremonies", read, study - do NOT just walk into a building unprepared, and ignorantly raise your hand and make covenants for things you did not know ahead of time and were not allowed to study for yourself. There is a reason it is "secret" and not disclosed - no one would walk in there and make covenants if they knew what they were getting themselves into ahead of time.

Again, I'm sympathetic that you've had a rotten life. It's fine that you don't want to be LDS anymore. Please move on with your life and find some happiness somewhere, rather than posting false statements on here. I don't want to call you on it when you post BS, but you've been excessive on it and I'm going to have to if this keeps up.