Religious involvement in marriage

[Epic Beard Man]

This is really the point.

It's unfortunate that the English language is so weak with regard to the concept of love.
I love my mom.
I love my partner.
I love art.
I love cheeseburgers.
I love freedom.

The word "love" means very different things in all of those sentences.

Tom

You and I agree? There is hope.

Yes different types of love.

I look to God for an entirely different thing than I look to my spouse. God is my light and my strength to secure my humanity, my wife or spouse is my partner but even she is finite and needs help beyond her human capacity.

 

[Jumi]

I don't think it's a valid question for me, because God and spouse aren't opposites that detract from each other. If they are, well, just my opinion but is it healthy?

 

[Trackdayguy]

In your religious faith, does your religious organization require obedience/vows/commitment to the organization as part of its marriage vows? - ie - you are not allowed to just make a commitment to a person, you have to commit to the religious organization? The organization forces itself between you and your spouse?

For those of you who put God first - it seems like you would not have as close of a relationship with your spouse...


I was married in the Mormon church, have now left the church, and am feeling horrible about my marriage vows:
Mormon Temple Marriage Ceremony

Mormons do not include " forsaking all others" as part of their vows - the vows is to the "new and everlasting - polygamous - covenant", so there is no loyalty to your spouse, no vow of commitment to any single person, it is nothing more than a commitment to an organization which is sickening.

I am navigating a mixed-faith relationship (I have left the church, spouse has not) - anyone else out there in a mixed-faith marriage? Do you feel your religious organization comes between family members, forces itself between people - holds itself to be more important than human-to-human real relationships?

What should a marriage vow be?

I would suggest that its often difficult to understand how to move forward because of the social norms in our society that state that monogamy is the standard. Its important to remember that monogamy isn't Biblical its Roman. "Sex & Dawn" is a good read on the subject.

 

[Trackdayguy]

Divorce Rates for Atheists Are Among the Lowest in America

those who commit to a real-live person, vs. those who hold their own beliefs above all else... hmmm...

Interesting stats. Is that because less Atheists aren't getting married.

 

[idea]

The relationship is almost always rocky. Little things start to bother people or someone fears a betrayal. Its not always romantic. Rather it should hopefully start out and end romantically, but its almost never pleasant all of the time. Plus as you age you get uglier not prettier. By romance I guess you refer to the long term relationship that becomes possible and the connection that can develop.

I agree - I guess it depends on what you call "romantic". True romance is I think being close to one another - knowing one another, seeing face to face, being completely open and honest with one another - and that is not always pretty.

Is it healthy to be in an "open and honest", anything goes - no religious rules apply - complete trust, unconditional love sort of deal? Knowing it might be a little abusive even, but that might be the price that is paid to experience that level of openness with another?

Or is it better to apply rules - conditional love, don't tell me anything I don't want to hear, know you will be judged and kicked out if you are honest, everyone living in fear of offending "God", using God as the ultimate judge and excuse for judging others, and controlling actions... forced obligatory fear-based love? (I exaggerate to make a point here...)

Respect for both G-d and spouse is very important in Jewish faith. By respecting ones spouse one is automatically respecting G-d. The more you and your spouse respect each other in accordance with Jewish law, the more respect there is between you and your spouse and you and G-d. If you respect your spouse anyways, putting jewish law aside, this too is very special to G-d.

Thinking of fiddler on the roof here... what if you fall in love with someone who is not Jewish? Again - devotion to a faith? or devotion to a person?

God is my Creator. The designer of who I am and my conversation is on the basis of creation to creator. I ask for things that are beyond the capabilities of a human’s ability and at the same time ask for things I feel I cannot attain that is common to humans. I cannot have that conversation with the average person. My wife or whoever is not my creator nor is she the creator of the universe, because like I said, it’s an entirely different conversation.

We create and influence one another too don't you think? We ask people for things which are unattainable too - have wish lists, hope for things...

You are right though - being "with" someone, side by side, vs. seeing yourself as being below someone... a healthy marriage invites "one heart and one mind", seeing eye to eye, face to face, knowing as you are known - on the same level as your partner, not seeing yourself below or above them.

I don't think it's a valid question for me, because God and spouse aren't opposites that detract from each other. If they are, well, just my opinion but is it healthy?

Is your marriage open enough that your spouse could go through a faith transition - change religious beliefs - and you would love them as if nothing had changed? If your religious beliefs were opposite that of your spouse - perhaps they remain loving and loyal to you personally, but for themselves, they come to find that they are atheist (just sharing their own honest inquiry, not trying to belittle anyone, not angry or contentious, just being honest about where their research has led them)... Is it healthy if a marriage is conditional on someone's religious beliefs, or is it more healthy if a relationship is solid with or without a shared faith? Which, in your opinion, demonstrates higher love?

 

[idea]

I would suggest that its often difficult to understand how to move forward because of the social norms in our society that state that monogamy is the standard. Its important to remember that monogamy isn't Biblical its Roman. "Sex & Dawn" is a good read on the subject.

Monogamy might not be Biblical (Jesus himself was born to a "handmaid", and if we look at what a handmaid is - Abraham, Sara, Hagar - and Abraham represents Heavenly Father... Hagar was a handmaid... Mary was a handmaid... polygamy and polyandry - Mary had relashions and children with multiple fathers....) ... but I digress...

Without any historical or religious definitions of marriage, what does everyone here think it should be?

If you want multiple partners, fine - but why make any covenants with any partner if you are more interested in variety than in settling down with any single person? Nothing wrong with multiple partners, just seems strange to make any sort of a covenant there... Do you_______ take ___________ to be their lawful wedded .... partner for one day until another fun cutie comes along and you find someone else to sleep with?

seems like marriage and covenants apply more to those who are interested in a monogamous relationship, don't you think?

 

[idea]

Interesting stats. Is that because less Atheists aren't getting married.

It is because atheists marry one another because they actually love the person - they do not get married to fulfill some religious or social requirement (like Mormons do - Mormon believe they cannot go to heaven unless they get married etc.)

 

[Trackdayguy]

It is because atheists marry one another because they actually love the person - they do not get married to fulfill some religious or social requirement (like Mormons do - Mormon believe they cannot go to heaven unless they get married etc.)

I guess in the end people can believe what they want, but it doesn't make it true.

 

[danieldemol]

I feel as though I love my wife and God equally, i’ve never felt as though I had to choose between the two even though we are from different faiths (Baha’i/Hindu).
Kind regards

 

[InChrist]

In your religious faith, does your religious organization require obedience/vows/commitment to the organization as part of its marriage vows? - ie - you are not allowed to just make a commitment to a person, you have to commit to the religious organization? The organization forces itself between you and your spouse?

For those of you who put God first - it seems like you would not have as close of a relationship with your spouse...


I was married in the Mormon church, have now left the church, and am feeling horrible about my marriage vows:
Mormon Temple Marriage Ceremony

Mormons do not include " forsaking all others" as part of their vows - the vows is to the "new and everlasting - polygamous - covenant", so there is no loyalty to your spouse, no vow of commitment to any single person, it is nothing more than a commitment to an organization which is sickening.

I am navigating a mixed-faith relationship (I have left the church, spouse has not) - anyone else out there in a mixed-faith marriage? Do you feel your religious organization comes between family members, forces itself between people - holds itself to be more important than human-to-human real relationships?

What should a marriage vow be?

It must be a very difficult situation for you. I'm sorry. I am very grateful that, although, my husband and I were married in the Mormon temple, we were both saved by Jesus Christ on the same day, after leaving Mormonism. We have shared our love for Jesus together over the years since. I can imagine how hard it would have been if one of us remained in the LDS church.

 

[Jumi]

Is your marriage open enough that your spouse could go through a faith transition - change religious beliefs - and you would love them as if nothing had changed? If your religious beliefs were opposite that of your spouse - perhaps they remain loving and loyal to you personally, but for themselves, they come to find that they are atheist (just sharing their own honest inquiry, not trying to belittle anyone, not angry or contentious, just being honest about where their research has led them)... Is it healthy if a marriage is conditional on someone's religious beliefs, or is it more healthy if a relationship is solid with or without a shared faith? Which, in your opinion, demonstrates higher love?

I personally wouldn't mind if anyone in my family changed religions or anywhere between theism-atheism. My extended family who I keep in contact with includes theists and maybe a few atheists. I'm not sure what one of us believes, but as long as she's happy I don't mind. I myself was atheist for many years without problems...

 

[Elliott5779]

Thinking of fiddler on the roof here... what if you fall in love with someone who is not Jewish? Again - devotion to a faith? or devotion to a person?

In this case it can be a problem on a number of different levels. It is a problem for both the jew and the non-jew if they fall in love. This would be one of the few exceptions where devotion to faith should take precedence over devotion to spouse.

 

[Salvador]

When I married my wife, I considered her to be my goddess, so then I thought I could love my spouse as much as I could love any goddess. ...

 

[Jane.Doe]

In your religious faith, does your religious organization require obedience/vows/commitment to the organization as part of its marriage vows? - ie - you are not allowed to just make a commitment to a person, you have to commit to the religious organization? The organization forces itself between you and your spouse?

All religions talk some about love and the way faith/spiritualism should be intertwined with love and commitment.

I was married in the Mormon church, have now left the church, and am feeling horrible about my marriage vows:
Mormon Temple Marriage Ceremony

Mormons do not include " forsaking all others" as part of their vows - the vows is to the "new and everlasting - polygamous - covenant", so there is no loyalty to your spouse, no vow of commitment to any single person, it is nothing more than a commitment to an organization which is sickening.

^This is just false information. LDS marriage vows are made by people who have already sworn to God Himself to cleave and be sexually involved with no one but their spouse (future spouse in the case of people who aren't yet married). A person raised LDS will literally make this promise to God at the age of eight and it is expect that you'll keep to it. Sexual relations outside of marriage are *extremely* frowned upon.

All in all, I don't know of a single faith that is MORE focused on fidelity to your spouse than LDS. Certainly not mainstream atheism.

I am navigating a mixed-faith relationship (I have left the church, spouse has not) - anyone else out there in a mixed-faith marriage?

I am myself. The key is respect. You got too 100% respect your spouse & their beliefs (or lack thereof). I'm not saying you got to share them, but you got to respect them because they are part of your spouse.

 

[Glaurung]

For those of you who put God first - it seems like you would not have as close of a relationship with your spouse...

God comes first. God before all things. Heck, no human being would even exist were it not for the ever sustaining will of God. To recognize that God is infinitely beyond any creature in no way renders you incapable genuine love for other humans. It in fact helps you recognize their dignity being in the very image of that god.

Nonetheless a human being is a human being. A creature destined to return to the dust. And while I may care for some human beings very deeply (even to the point of my life) no human being is worth the loss of the eternal vision of the infinite. Nor is anything else whatsoever in the entire physical cosmos. God and God alone is capable of infinite love.

 

[arthra]

In your religious faith, does your religious organization require obedience/vows/commitment to the organization as part of its marriage vows? -

There is only one vow required of a prospective bride and groom before two witnesses:

"We will all verily abide by the will of God."

More on Baha'i marriages:

"Bahá'í marriage is union and cordial affection between the two parties. They must, however, exercise the utmost care and become acquainted with each other's character. This eternal bond should be made secure by a firm covenant, and the intention should be to foster harmony, fellowship and unity and to attain everlasting life...
In a true Bahá'í marriage the two parties must become fully united both spiritually and physically, so that they may attain eternal union throughout all the worlds of God, and improve the spiritual life of each other. This is Bahá'í matrimony."

Also see:

Marriage, Bahá'í

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 372

Baha'i marriage ceremonies are free of charge and can occur any where. Non- Baha'is can also request a Baha'i marriage. Usually the Local Spiritual Assembly is contacted should you wish to have a Baha'i ceremony.

My wife and I will be celebrating forty five years of marriage this December!

 

[Trailblazer]

In your religious faith, does your religious organization require obedience/vows/commitment to the organization as part of its marriage vows? - ie - you are not allowed to just make a commitment to a person, you have to commit to the religious organization? The organization forces itself between you and your spouse?

For those of you who put God first - it seems like you would not have as close of a relationship with your spouse...

I was married in the Mormon church, have now left the church, and am feeling horrible about my marriage vows:
Mormon Temple Marriage Ceremony

Mormons do not include " forsaking all others" as part of their vows - the vows is to the "new and everlasting - polygamous - covenant", so there is no loyalty to your spouse, no vow of commitment to any single person, it is nothing more than a commitment to an organization which is sickening.

I am navigating a mixed-faith relationship (I have left the church, spouse has not) - anyone else out there in a mixed-faith marriage? Do you feel your religious organization comes between family members, forces itself between people - holds itself to be more important than human-to-human real relationships?

What should a marriage vow be?

My husband and I are both Baha'is and have never been members of any other religion. He was raised Christian but it never took; I was raised in no religion with no God belief. He has been a Baha'i for 53 years, me for 48.

Who do I love more, God or my husband? Well, I am mad at both of them a lot of the time but I guess I love them because I would not want to be without either one of them.

I would not say I have a relationship with God... How does one have a relationship with the Unseen?

 

[Trailblazer]

A person raised LDS will literally make this promise to God at the age of eight and it is expect that you'll keep to it. Sexual relations outside of marriage are *extremely* frowned upon.

Thanks for sharing that. That is refreshing to hear because I do not think all Christians adhere to that high of a standard. The Baha'i Faith has the same high standards for sexual behavior. It is in our Book of Laws, which is considered our most holy book.

“The Bahá’í teachings on sexual morality centre on marriage and the family as the bedrock of the whole structure of human society and are designed to protect and strengthen that divine institution. Bahá’í law thus restricts permissible sexual intercourse to that between a man and the woman to whom he is married.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 223​

 

[stvdv]

I would be as reluctant to marry someone who loved their god more than me as I would be to marry someone who loved another man more than me, and for pretty much the same reasons.

If the person really loves God so much then I remember the rules my Master gave ones in a discourse:
1: Man should follow God
2: Wife should follow Man
3: Man should NEVER make woman cry
4: Woman should NOT have too many desires

If the person really loves God and follow the rules of the Bible:
1: Wife can be sure man never looks at other women "Do not lust in your heart for her beauty or let her captivate you with her eyes"
2: And if your eye causes you to fall into sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of Godwith one eye than to have two eyes and be throwninto hell,
3: Marry till death do us part

Problem is people easy say "I love God so much", but when it comes to putting in practice they usually fail horribly.

 

[stvdv]

For those of you who put God first - it seems like you would not have as close of a relationship with your spouse

I decided not to marry, just God. Hence I voted for "God I love more"

In India I learned "See your wife as God" ... "But beware not to treat her as a Deity"

That kind of makes sense to me, thinking of Advaita and Bhakti mixing