Religious involvement in marriage

[Trailblazer]

Anyone who claims they speak for God - and no one else can, is dangerous ground in my opinion... only men? women are not allowed to get messages from God? I believe in personal revelation for all - and also believe no one can receive revelation for another. No one should have to "trust in the arms of flesh" - no middle-man - to me, that is the evil in many religious organizations, imperfect people wanting you to worship and listen to them instead of God, putting themselves between you and the spiritual side of life.

God does not speak directly to anyone else except His Chosen Messengers. Only they are capable of understanding communication from God because they have a divine mind.

All human souls come into being at the moment of conception, but the souls of the Messengers of God (Prophets) have always existed in the spiritual world. This is a very important concept because this is one thing that differentiates the Messengers of God from ordinary human beings. It was in the spiritual world that their Souls were given the “capacity” to receive God’s revelation on earth and to communicate it to humanity in a way in which we can comprehend it. Since the rest of us are only human we can neither receive messages from God nor can we communicate God’s messages to humanity in a way that they can be understood by all. We just do not have that capacity.

A Messenger of God is human, but more than a human. He has a human nature so He can communicate to humans and act as a mediator, but He also has a universal divine mind, which is beyond our understanding. We can understand His human side, but not His divine side.

Only the Messengers of God have a universal divine mind, heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature, embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations.

To me, the free will argument only covers half of it - most trials, pain, and suffering are not created by free will. Natural disasters, medical conditions etc. etc. quite a lot the no one chooses, quite a lot that does not refine - as a teacher I have very different educational methodologies than God

I place blame in the hands of both the teacher, and the students, not just the students fault - see much of the problem as those who are not properly educated.

I understand your sentiments concerning trials, pain and suffering. That is my biggest “issue” with a God who is purportedly loving. The only way to make any sense of innocents that suffer is to believe in an afterlife where there will be no ore sorrow, no more pain. I believe in such an afterlife. My life has been mostly suffering, in various degrees. It has gotten a little better since I did my inner healing work to overcome my childhood issues, but things never really got that much better until I finally decided to turn to God. Unfortunately, it is still an uphill battle because I have a genetic predisposition to depression and anxiety and my life circumstances right now are somewhat difficult. I often wonder how much free will I actually have to change what I would like to. I think that free will has many constraints, so I cannot just decide to do what I think would make my life easier. It is not that simple.

Not all suffering is caused by free will, but much of it is. Even if it was not our free will choice that caused the suffering, it is often the free will choice of someone else that causes our suffering, and since we cannot control other people all we can do is try to avoid bad people as much as possible. I am dealing with one of these people right now, a bad tenant. By putting myself in the position to have rental houses I become vulnerable. My life would be so much easier without these houses but I have made a choice to keep them for now.

I do not think that the teacher/student analogy works when it comes to God’s Teachers. God’s Teachers are the Manifestations of God and they have God’s knowledge and do God’s Will. Since God is infallible these Teachers are inerrant.

I will stay tuned and check it out over the weekend - off to school

taking the class to do volunteer work today, handing out food in a freezing parking lot, good times! Thanks for your kind replies, you seem like a neat thoughtful person.

I won’t have this thread ready to post until the weekend, even if then. I am very busy during the work week as I work 10 hours four days a week and I have a three hour bike commute. I barely have time to answer posts on my work days.

I look forward to conversing with you further, when you have time. The only issue I have with this forum is that there are so many posters so I do not get to know very many people on a personal level. I come to forums as much to have personal relationships with people as I do to talk about religion. I have two other forums I go to where I have a lot of friends I have made over the years. Most of my good friends are atheists but I have a couple of friends who are believers.

 

[idea]

God does not speak directly to anyone else except His Chosen Messengers. Only they are capable of understanding communication from God because they have a divine mind.

All human souls come into being at the moment of conception, but the souls of the Messengers of God (Prophets) have always existed in the spiritual world. This is a very important concept because this is one thing that differentiates the Messengers of God from ordinary human beings. It was in the spiritual world that their Souls were given the “capacity” to receive God’s revelation on earth and to communicate it to humanity in a way in which we can comprehend it. Since the rest of us are only human we can neither receive messages from God nor can we communicate God’s messages to humanity in a way that they can be understood by all. We just do not have that capacity.

A Messenger of God is human, but more than a human. He has a human nature so He can communicate to humans and act as a mediator, but He also has a universal divine mind, which is beyond our understanding. We can understand His human side, but not His divine side.

Only the Messengers of God have a universal divine mind, heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature, embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them, understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and divine significations.

I understand your sentiments concerning trials, pain and suffering. That is my biggest “issue” with a God who is purportedly loving. The only way to make any sense of innocents that suffer is to believe in an afterlife where there will be no ore sorrow, no more pain. I believe in such an afterlife. My life has been mostly suffering, in various degrees. It has gotten a little better since I did my inner healing work to overcome my childhood issues, but things never really got that much better until I finally decided to turn to God. Unfortunately, it is still an uphill battle because I have a genetic predisposition to depression and anxiety and my life circumstances right now are somewhat difficult. I often wonder how much free will I actually have to change what I would like to. I think that free will has many constraints, so I cannot just decide to do what I think would make my life easier. It is not that simple.

Not all suffering is caused by free will, but much of it is. Even if it was not our free will choice that caused the suffering, it is often the free will choice of someone else that causes our suffering, and since we cannot control other people all we can do is try to avoid bad people as much as possible. I am dealing with one of these people right now, a bad tenant. By putting myself in the position to have rental houses I become vulnerable. My life would be so much easier without these houses but I have made a choice to keep them for now.

I do not think that the teacher/student analogy works when it comes to God’s Teachers. God’s Teachers are the Manifestations of God and they have God’s knowledge and do God’s Will. Since God is infallible these Teachers are inerrant.

I won’t have this thread ready to post until the weekend, even if then. I am very busy during the work week as I work 10 hours four days a week and I have a three hour bike commute. I barely have time to answer posts on my work days.

I look forward to conversing with you further, when you have time. The only issue I have with this forum is that there are so many posters so I do not get to know very many people on a personal level. I come to forums as much to have personal relationships with people as I do to talk about religion. I have two other forums I go to where I have a lot of friends I have made over the years. Most of my good friends are atheists but I have a couple of friends who are believers.

It is interesting to come to the forums - an amazing open place where everyone is able to openly share who they are in a beautiful diverse environment. It is strengthening to see how others have overcome their trials, what brings peace - I have struggled with depression and anxiety as well, and am using guided meditations right now to really help control my thoughts and mood. I have also gotten into herbal supplements that have really really helped. I also have a few childhood issues to overcome - I was a convert to the Mormon church, thought it was a safe place, spent many years there under the illusion that there were a few people "called by God" who would be safe - but then one of those "safe" people molested my kids, while other "safe" people upheld them and covered for them... a very painful thing as these "messengers" can very much get mixed in with your own personal religious beliefs - when those messengers are shown to be evil instead of good ... well, if you know what betrayal trauma is... it is more than betrayal, it is an attack on your religious beliefs, on all that you thought you stood on... only Jesus is inerrant - I would caution anyone against relying on any "messengers" - just the painful experience I have gone though - it can be soul crushing to put your trust in the arms of flesh. God wants all of us to have a personal testimony and personal relationship with the divine - no borrowed light, you have to have your own testimony, your own oil in your lamp - no borrowing from another. One of my mantras now:

A scary thing - that first flight... but you will never discover your own wings unless that branch brakes.

It is only when you let go of religious organizations - let go of those imperfect branches, that you find your own individual strength. The divine lives within all of us - thank you for your thoughtful replies, blessings going out to you on your journey!

 

[idea]

Back on topic:

There is what is real...

There is what we imagine to be real, what we desperately want to be real, what we hope will someday be real...

It is easy to commit to an imagined reality, an imagined perfect being...

How deeply are we able to love and commit to what we know to be real? ...

 

[Trailblazer]

It is interesting to come to the forums - an amazing open place where everyone is able to openly share who they are in a beautiful diverse environment. It is strengthening to see how others have overcome their trials, what brings peace - I have struggled with depression and anxiety as well, and am using guided meditations right now to really help control my thoughts and mood. I have also gotten into herbal supplements that have really really helped. I also have a few childhood issues to overcome - I was a convert to the Mormon church, thought it was a safe place, spent many years there under the illusion that there were a few people "called by God" who would be safe - but then one of those "safe" people molested my kids, while other "safe" people upheld them and covered for them... a very painful thing as these "messengers" can very much get mixed in with your own personal religious beliefs - when those messengers are shown to be evil instead of good ... well, if you know what betrayal trauma is... it is more than betrayal, it is an attack on your religious beliefs, on all that you thought you stood on... only Jesus is inerrant - I would caution anyone against relying on any "messengers" - just the painful experience I have gone though - it can be soul crushing to put your trust in the arms of flesh. God wants all of us to have a personal testimony and personal relationship with the divine - no borrowed light, you have to have your own testimony, your own oil in your lamp - no borrowing from another. One of my mantras now:

A scary thing - that first flight... but you will never discover your own wings unless that branch brakes.

It is only when you let go of religious organizations - let go of those imperfect branches, that you find your own individual strength. The divine lives within all of us - thank you for your thoughtful replies, blessings going out to you on your journey!

Thanks for sharing. It is sad to hear what happened to you by putting your trust in the wrong people but it sounds like you are recovering.

What I like most about these forums is making new friends and learning from others, not only about religious beliefs but about people. I also think we can also grow spiritually by learning how to get along with people of diverse backgrounds and beliefs in a spirit of harmony and unity. We can learn humility by realizing we are not right about everything. I know I have been called to grow and I can see the difference in me over the last six years of being on various forums.

I do not look to any religious organization for guidance. Although I believe I could get guidance from the Baha’i community, I tend to do my own thing, why I am called Trailblazer. For many years, I depended upon psychologists and counselors for healing but they did not help me much at all. It was only when I finally turned to God and to people I have met on forums that the answers started to come and true healing began...

Baha’is do not worship any Messengers, not even Jesus; we worship only God. The purpose of our existence and who we worship is clearly stated in the Baha’i Short Obligatory Prayer.

I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify, at this moment, to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth.

There is none other God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.​

Bahá’u’lláh​

To be clear, we do not believe that Jesus was God incarnate but we do believe that Jesus was inerrant because He was a perfect mirror image of God and a perfect conveyor of God’s Will. Baha’is believe that Jesus was “a Way” to God but not the Only Way to God for all time.

 

[Trailblazer]

How deeply are we able to love and commit to what we know to be real? ...

I love and am fully committed to what I know is real.

 

[Watchmen]

Mormons do not include " forsaking all others" as part of their vows - the vows is to the "new and everlasting - polygamous - covenant", so there is no loyalty to your spouse, no vow of commitment to any single person, it is nothing more than a commitment to an organization which is sickening.

I’ve left Mormonism myself, but your post above suggests you weren’t paying attention.

 

[Watchmen]

Every "faithful" Mormon man spends their married life fantasizing about all the additional wives they will have - if you don't think that is true, you are naive.
..

Like you, I think it’d be nice if the false church went away. But statements like this just reveal you to be a hater. Doesn’t help.

 

[tayla]

anyone else out there in a mixed-faith marriage? Do you feel your religious organization comes between family members, forces itself between people - holds itself to be more important than human-to-human real relationships?

I have to hide my true beliefs or everyone will be distressed. But why should we expect that those we love will believe exactly as we do about anything?

 

[tayla]

you are not allowed to just make a commitment to a person, you have to commit to the religious organization? The organization forces itself between you and your spouse?

In my view, this kind of interference with social institutions is cult-like; a way to control people.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have to hide my true beliefs or everyone will be distressed. But why should we expect that those we love will believe exactly as we do about anything?

We should not expect that. I would never hide my beliefs but I do not share them either except on forums or if solicited in real life.

My husband has the same beliefs as I do but even if he didn't I would not hide my beliefs from him.

 

[arthra]

….
Congratulations on 45 years!! That is beautiful!!
I do have mixed feelings on the idea "united in all things" - is is possible to love and be married to someone who has different spiritual affiliations? would that lead to more interesting conversations? a more selfless love (rather than just loving those who are the same as you)?
or - does shared beliefs create a better union? I can theoretically see benefits to both.

Sorry for my late response... The part about being spiritually and physically united is presented to Baha'is as a goal even in a future beyond death:

"Bahá'í marriage is union and cordial affection between the two parties. They must, however, exercise the utmost care and become acquainted with each other's character. This eternal bond should be made secure by a firm covenant, and the intention should be to foster harmony, fellowship and unity and to attain everlasting life...
In a true Bahá'í marriage the two parties must become fully united both spiritually and physically, so that they may attain eternal union throughout all the worlds of God, and improve the spiritual life of each other. This is Bahá'í matrimony."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 372

Baha'is allow for "unity in diversity" and permit marriages with other faiths. Even non-Baha'is can have a Baha'i marriage which is recognized in most states and it's freeee. All they need do is contact a nearby Local Spiritual Assembly.

- Art