Religious Affiliation & Side Taken Regarding Israel

[InChrist]

I'm sure they do, but on terms unacceptable
to Israel & USA, ie, justice for Palestinians,
& reparations for those killed, robbed, &
driven away during & since Israel's founding.

More so than you are. For you seek only to
continue the brutality that has failed for
decade after decade.

Intransigence on the other side is best dealt
with by ending intransigence on one's own.
Note that Israel wants no country for Palestinians,
even as it kills, maims, robs, & evicts Palestinians.

No, I don’t and I’m sure most people don’t want continued brutality. Yet, it seems you often make these personal ad hominem attacks against those who see the situation differently than you. I just don’t think your perspective lines up with reality or history. It’s Israel that has endeavored to make peace, ready to make concessions and come to a two state solution, only to have such overtures repeatedly rejected, as terrorist jihad attacks continue year after year.


“In the wake of the October 7 Hamas terror attack on Israeli civilians and Israel’s military response, a narrative is emerging that condemns Hamas for its brutality while blaming Israeli policies toward the Palestinians as the root cause of the Hamas atrocities. This narrative defies historical accuracy. It is time to set the record straight.

First, to ascribe the root cause of the Hamas attacks to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank ignores the century-long history of Palestinian terrorism against their Jewish neighbors, commencing long before the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and indeed long before the creation of the State of Israel.

For example, in August 1929, two decades before Israel existed, Palestinian terrorists massacred 70 Jewish civilians in Hebron. The Times of London carried a chilling report of the massacres in its September 2, 1929, edition, describing how the terrorists slaughtered women and Yeshiva students.

Second, Israel is not to blame for the Palestinians’ lack of statehood. On multiple occasions over the past 85 years Palestinian leaders rejected both the one-state and two-state solutions.”


“The Palestinians continued their November 1947 renunciation of the two-state solution for months and decades afterward. In December 1948 hundreds of Palestinian leaders met in Jericho and passed a series of resolutions asking King Abdullah I of Jordan to formally annex the West Bank. Jordan accepted the request and annexed the West Bank, occupying the area until the June 1967 Six-Day War. Egypt, meanwhile, occupied Gaza from 1948-1967.

Significantly, not once during the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank and the Egyptian occupation of Gaza between 1948-1967 did the Palestinians ever demand statehood in the West Bank and Gaza. Instead, the Palestinians demanded the destruction of Israel.”

Lost Opportunities for Peace in Palestine

The Hamas atrocities earlier this month demonstrate once and for all that Hamas and its supporters have no interest in pursuing the two-state solution.

www.independent.com

 

[InChrist]

These people absolutely love war. They live and breathe war, and adore war and look toward their rewards from their God as they engage in war for their spiritual rewards and to have their names on the martyrs wall.

Why do you think they would/could love war and such brutality so much? I was reading an account of a young Jewish woman hiding in the bushes for hours on October 7th, while the Hamas soldiers and even Palestinian civilians were massacring men and women at the music festival. She could see the hatred in their eyes as they raped, brutalized and mutilated people. She could not explain or understand the intensity or even pleasure she saw mixed with the hate.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, I don’t and I’m sure most people don’t want continued brutality.

Many say so. Yet they support Israel's & US's
continued attacks on Palestinians, & destroying
their ability to remain in Gaza.

Yet, it seems you often make these personal ad hominem attacks against those who see the situation differently than you.

Tis not an ad hominem to recognize what people
actually do. Christians & Jews here hold the power
& the majority that continue to pursue oppression,
theft, & war crimes.

I just don’t think your perspective lines up with reality or history. It’s Israel that has endeavored to make peace, ready to make concessions and come to a two state solution, only to have such overtures repeatedly rejected, as terrorist jihad attacks continue year after year.

Israel wants peace, but its actions are at odds with
this. It foments violence by stealing Palestinian land,
by killing & maiming, by imposing apartheid & a
lesser standard of justice upon them.
Tis you that lacks the perspective of seeing what Israel
does, & the inevitable consequence of violent rebellion.

“In the wake of the October 7 Hamas terror attack on Israeli civilians and Israel’s military response, a narrative is emerging that condemns Hamas for its brutality while blaming Israeli policies toward the Palestinians as the root cause of the Hamas atrocities. This narrative defies historical accuracy. It is time to set the record straight.

Prior to the Oct 7 attack, Israel had killed more Palestinians
than in the prior decade. It had ramped up brutality.

First, to ascribe the root cause of the Hamas attacks to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank....

You ignore all of Israel's injustices visited upon
Palestinians prior to this. And tis no mere
benign occupation.

....ignores the century-long history of Palestinian terrorism against their Jewish neighbors, commencing long before the Israeli occupation of the West Bank, and indeed long before the creation of the State of Israel.

You ignore Israeli terrorism.
It fuels this conflict.

For example, in August 1929, two decades before Israel existed, Palestinian terrorists massacred 70 Jewish civilians in Hebron. The Times of London carried a chilling report of the massacres in its September 2, 1929, edition, describing how the terrorists slaughtered women and Yeshiva students.

Again, you see terrorism on the other side,
but are blind to it on the Jewish side.

Second, Israel is not to blame for the Palestinians’ lack of statehood. On multiple occasions over the past 85 years Palestinian leaders rejected both the one-state and two-state solutions.”


“The Palestinians continued their November 1947 renunciation of the two-state solution for months and decades afterward. In December 1948 hundreds of Palestinian leaders met in Jericho and passed a series of resolutions asking King Abdullah I of Jordan to formally annex the West Bank. Jordan accepted the request and annexed the West Bank, occupying the area until the June 1967 Six-Day War. Egypt, meanwhile, occupied Gaza from 1948-1967.

Significantly, not once during the Jordanian occupation of the West Bank and the Egyptian occupation of Gaza between 1948-1967 did the Palestinians ever demand statehood in the West Bank and Gaza. Instead, the Palestinians demanded the destruction of Israel.”

Lost Opportunities for Peace in Palestine

The Hamas atrocities earlier this month demonstrate once and for all that Hamas and its supporters have no interest in pursuing the two-state solution.

www.independent.com

You aggressively avoid understanding the other
side, seeking only their demonization, & justification
for continued oppression, & slaughter when they
violently resist.
Such has been the way of Christians & Jews in
power for so many ways that they can see no other.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Why do you think they would/could love war and such brutality so much? I was reading an account of a young Jewish woman hiding in the bushes for hours on October 7th, while the Hamas soldiers and even Palestinian civilians were massacring men and women at the music festival.

Then the account you were reading was defamatory and unevidenced, because there has, to date, been no confirmed evidence from any reliable sources that Palestinian civilians did any of the above on October 7, and it strikes me as dangerous and irresponsible for any source to assert that in the middle of a war where over 23,000 Palestinians—about half of whom are children—have been killed by the IDF's strikes.

The world's oldest Christian community in Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, canceled Christmas festivities last year in mourning over and solidarity with the thousands of civilians the IDF had killed:

Christmas has been canceled in Bethlehem this year

The city of Bethlehem, the biblical birthplace of Jesus, is usually bustling with holiday festivities and decor this time of year, but this year, celebrations were called off in the wake of Israel&…

thehill.com

I can only ask what Jesus would say about writing or repeating unfounded and demonizing claims about civilians from another country while they were getting killed by the thousands.

She could see the hatred in their eyes as they raped, brutalized and mutilated people. She could not explain or understand the intensity or even pleasure she saw mixed with the hate.

How many Palestinians have you talked to or asked about their history and background in relation to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? How many sources do you read that are not entirely pro-Israeli and explicitly written from a perspective that neither extensively covers nor deeply understands Palestinian perspectives and concerns regarding the issue?

Your post makes the situation sound like some superhero movie where Israel is the hero and Palestinians—including civilians, apparently—are either one-dimensional villains or supporters of abject evil. This doesn't seem to suggest any deep familiarity with people from the "other side" or recognition of their concerns and humanity to the same extent as those of the "side" you have decided to support.

 

[InChrist]

Then the account you were reading was defamatory and unevidenced, because there has, to date, been no confirmed evidence from any reliable sources that Palestinian civilians did any of the above on October 7, and it strikes me as dangerous and irresponsible for any source to assert that in the middle of a war where over 23,000 Palestinians—about half of whom are children—have been killed by the IDF's strikes.

The world's oldest Christian community in Bethlehem, the birthplace of Jesus, canceled Christmas festivities last year in mourning over and solidarity with the thousands of civilians the IDF had killed:

Christmas has been canceled in Bethlehem this year

The city of Bethlehem, the biblical birthplace of Jesus, is usually bustling with holiday festivities and decor this time of year, but this year, celebrations were called off in the wake of Israel&…

thehill.com

I can only ask what Jesus would say about writing or repeating unfounded and demonizing claims about civilians from another country while they were getting killed by the thousands.



How many Palestinians have you talked to or asked about their history and background in relation to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? How many sources do you read that are not entirely pro-Israeli and explicitly written from a perspective that neither extensively covers nor deeply understands Palestinian perspectives and concerns regarding the issue?

Your post makes the situation sound like some superhero movie where Israel is the hero and Palestinians—including civilians, apparently—are either one-dimensional villains or supporters of abject evil. This doesn't seem to suggest any deep familiarity with people from the "other side" or recognition of their concerns and humanity to the same extent as those of the "side" you have decided to support.

At this point, I certainly don’t think Israel is the hero, nor a nation that always acts righteously or benevolently; on the contrary. But I think the hatred mentality with the goal of Israel’s destruction, promoted by Hamas and indoctrinated into the minds of Palestinian people, from childhood up, is evil. So as the writer of the article says below …


It is a grave error to refuse to believe that people could slaughter whole populations – especially populations that are by any objective evaluation not threatening – out of conviction. Why persist in the belief that ‘ordinary’ people could not possibly sanction, let alone partake in wholesale human slaughter? The historical record, from ancient times to the present, amply testifies to the ease with which people can extinguish the lives of others, and even take joy in their deaths.”

Ordinary Germans did.
Ordinary Palestinians, too.”

—————
“A few weeks ago, this writer was invited to the Israeli consulate in Toronto to see 42 minutes of raw video footage. It was mostly taken from video recorders dead (and uniformed) Hamas terrorists brought with them on the morning of Oct. 7, 2023.”

“In the Hamas footage, a Palestinian in civilian clothes uses an oversized green garden hoe to decapitate a foreign agricultural worker who is still alive. There are videos of Palestinian civilians beating hostages – some elderly – with sticks and their fists. And there is footage of corpses of Israelis being desecrated by Palestinians, on the back of a truck.

The Hamas video footage – some now online – also shows non-Hamas Palestinians looting and vandalizing the homes and bodies of Jews.
Multiple videos document Palestinian citizens flooding into Israeli, following Hamas. At Kibbutz Be’eri, near the border with Gaza, video footage – mainly taken from home security cameras – shows dozens of Palestinian citizens following ten truckloads of Hamas killers into the kibbutz.

Some Palestinians came by car, and some on foot and on bicycles. Some are armed. Some are children. They can then be seen stealing agricultural equipment, televisions, motorbikes and more.
Not every Palestinian is Hamas. That’s true. But it’s also true that – on that terrible day – many, many Palestinians were supporting Hamas.”

One of the reasons why Hamas mass murder on Oct. 7 was so effective and efficient was because Palestinian civilians – Palestinians who had been working alongside Israelis in those kibbutzim farms – had told Hamas how to disable the Israeli security and communications systems. They had told them who to kill first, and where victims could be found.

Palestinian civilians did that.”

KINSELLA: Ordinary Palestinian citizens aided and abetted Hamas on Oct. 7

Hamas did not act alone Oct. 7. It did not act alone before or after that date. Palestinians – ordinary citizens – aided and abetted Hamas.

torontosun.com

I am concerned and pray for the Palestinian people and the Jewish people because I believe God cares about every person.

Below a quote by:
Mosab Hassan Yousef, the disowned eldest son of the co-founder of Hamas

“ I am the legitimate representative of the Palestinian children. The child within me speaks: I don’t want somebody coming from London or somebody coming from the other side of the world to tell me what is the struggle of the Palestinian children. The Palestinian society has been hijacked by criminals and anybody who takes their side is participating in their crime,” he said.”

‘Son of Hamas’ in interview: Terrorists brought wrath of God with October 7 attack

In passionate conversation with UK TV journalist Piers Morgan, Mosab Hassan Yousef, the disowned son of Hamas co-founder, advocates for war to topple bloody regime

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[Revoltingest]

At this point, I certainly don’t think Israel is the hero, nor a nation that always acts righteously or benevolently; on the contrary. But I think the hatred mentality with the goal of Israel’s destruction, promoted by Hamas and indoctrinated into the minds of Palestinian people, from childhood up, is evil.

Israel teaches its children & people to hate Muslims too.
This is worse because it wields so much more military
power, including USA's military. This is why the kill
ratio of Israel/Hamas is currently about 20:1, & climbing

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3oNelks974

 

[Bthoth]

I notice a correlation between religious affiliation
& stance taken in the Israel vs Palestinian war.
Christians, Jews, Muslims, & atheists tend to
particular sides.
But there are interesting outliers of opinion.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/22/1221128897/masha-gessen-essay-israel-gaza-germany-hannah-arendt-prize

Excerpted....
Prominent Russian-American journalist Masha Gessen received a prestigious award for political thought over the weekend, in a ceremony that almost didn't happen due to backlash over their recent writings on Israel-Gaza.

Israel's air-and-ground assault on Gaza has killed more than 20,000 people in the 10 weeks since the Hamas-led attack on Israel killed some 1,200 people and took more than 240 others hostage.

Gessen, who is Jewish and whose family lost loved ones in the Holocaust, has been criticized for a New Yorker essay published earlier this month in which they likened the Gaza Strip to the WWII-era ghettos that Nazis developed to segregate and control Jewish people in occupied Europe.

Gessen argues in the essay that treating the Holocaust as a "singular event," unlike anything that has occurred before or after in history, not only is incorrect but makes it impossible to learn lessons from the Holocaust that are needed to prevent future genocides.

The term "would have given us the language to describe what is happening in Gaza now. The ghetto is being liquidated," they wrote, referring to the process in which Jews were either killed in ghettos or forced out to concentration camps.

Gessen notes there are key differences between the two: The Nazi claim that ghettos were necessary to protect non-Jews from disease "had no basis in reality," while Israel's stance that the isolation of Gaza is necessary to protect against Palestinian terrorist attacks "stems from actual and repeated acts of violence."

"Yet both claims propose that an occupying authority can choose to isolate, immiserate — and now, mortally endanger — an entire population of people in the name of protecting its own," they contend.

I agree, Gessen is observing that israel should have learned from ww2 rather than create a similar situation.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree, Gessen is observing that israel should have learned from ww2 rather than create a similar situation.

Tis oft said....
"History teaches us that people fail to learn from history."

They have become what they fled.

 

[Sargonski]

Tis oft said....
"History teaches us that people fail to learn from history."

They have become what they fled.

Same can be said about the True Blue crew .. the anti war party now the new Neo-cons --

Used to be party of ACLU -- Essential Liberty -- my body my choice .. free speech. Now they about censorship .. your body the choice of the State .. anti ACLU...

Sad state of affairs.

 

[Samael_Khan]

I see religion as fundamental, not a mere tool.
How it appears to me....
Christians value only Christians & Jews.
Jews value only Jews.
And both devalue Muslims.
This drives USA's & Israel's predation, conquest,
murder, oppression, & theft in the Middle East.

Hmmmm... i think that yes, religion is fundamental to the manipulated but not the instigators at the helm. To me this explains why the evangelicals are so pro Israel now when historically christians have been heavily anti semitic proposing that jews were a problem to be dealt with. Which makes me think that the change in stances in the modern day has got to do with gaining something material rather than merely actions based on spiritual beliefs.

 

[Samael_Khan]

This conflict is not about land. It's about religion.

Religion is the tool. Some deeper strategic intent is at play. Such as gaining land. But even that is a tool for something greater.

 

[Estro Felino]

Religion is the tool. Some deeper strategic intent is at play. Such as gaining land. But even that is a tool for something greater.

No, it's about religion. Period.
Because in Europe so many nationalities coexist: I can give you the example of Bosnia Erzegovina; Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox people coexist, despite the past wars.

 

[Samael_Khan]

No, it's about religion. Period.
Because in Europe so many nationalities coexist: I can give you the example of Bosnia Erzegovina; Muslims, Catholics and Orthodox people coexist, despite the past wars.

In Israel/palestine muslims, christians and jews lived in peace until the influx of jews and the establishment of Israel. If it was purely religion, there wouldnt be such fluctuation in allegiance, beliefs and how thr material gain benefitted from religious stances would change so much. Even christian support of Israel is weird because they were the main ones persecuting jewd

 

[Samael_Khan]

Those 2 sentences show what's happening. "Concern" is
quickly replaced by "terrorist Muslims". Further note that
it's not merely "terrorists", but "terrorists Muslims". This
makes it easier to kill & maim innocent Muslims, & justify
evicting them all from Gaza.

It does in a forum where religious folk, primarily Christians
regularly invoke Jesus to criticize other Christians who
exhibit immorality & a lack of humanity. Then these same
Christians justify mass murder of Palestinians by decrying
peacemaking as feckless. They show no concern for the
tens of thousands of dead & maimed Palestinians, including
children & babies. But oh....do they ever care about a
hundred or so remaining hostages.

In short....
Those who trumpet Christianity as a moral exemplar,
can expect criticism when it fails utterly.

This is indeed a source of bigotry against Muslims,
& dismissal of the value of their lives relative to
"God's Chosen", the Jews.

Your post continues with justification for killing
innocents....if "many Muslim scholars" don't care,
then Jews & Christians needn't care about Muslims.

Dang, man.....you're supporting my view that
Christians & Jews have so much hatred or
disregard for Muslims that war crimes &
genocide have become acceptable...nay,
even righteous.

I am of the belief that the christians who support Israel no matter what they do, such as killing Palestinians in the thousands, don't care about human rights at their core. They care more about their religion. This is why they can easily dismiss the indiscriminate killing that happens in the old testament. Independent of their religion they have no moral compass, so whatever their religion says is ok goes. If they were told by their religious authorities that they should massacre children they would be ok with it. Their whole act of being nice and having this superior moral demeanor is all a farce.

I class them in the same category of those who cheered for Hamas when they massacred those civilians on Oct 7.

 

[RestlessSoul]

These people absolutely love war. They live and breathe war, and adore war and look toward their rewards from their God as they engage in war for their spiritual rewards and to have their names on the martyrs wall.

These people?

 

[Revoltingest]

Hmmmm... i think that yes, religion is fundamental to the manipulated but not the instigators at the helm. To me this explains why the evangelicals are so pro Israel now when historically christians have been heavily anti semitic proposing that jews were a problem to be dealt with. Which makes me think that the change in stances in the modern day has got to do with gaining something material rather than merely actions based on spiritual beliefs.

Christianity evolves over millennia.
Once they scourged Jews.
Now they fete Jews, & especially Zionism.
Religion is what it is, not what it once was.

But of course, when genocide & pogroms
provide material gain, religion tends to
follow that path, eg, Nazis, Putin, Israel,
USA's Manifest Destiny.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Christianity evolves over millennia.
Once they scourged Jews.
Now they fete Jews, & especially Zionism.
Religion is what it is, not what it once was.

But of course, when genocide & pogroms
provide material gain, religion tends to
follow that path.

I agree with you here. But what do you think is the reasoning behind the changing of stances in religions?

 

[Revoltingest]

I am of the belief that the christians who support Israel no matter what they do, such as killing Palestinians in the thousands, don't care about human rights at their core. They care more about their religion.

I see it also as caring about their own tribe.
Their empathy is parochial, especially in Jewish culture.

APA PsycNet

psycnet.apa.org

This is why they can easily dismiss the indiscriminate killing that happens in the old testament. Independent of their religion they have no moral compass, so whatever their religion says is ok goes. If they were told by their religious authorities that they should massacre children they would be ok with it. Their whole act of being nice and having this superior moral demeanor is all a farce.

I class them in the same category of those who cheered for Hamas when they massacred those civilians on Oct 7.

Those who cheer Israel's murder & eviction of Palestinians
are worst than Hamas because they're the oppressors,
rather than the oppressed, & because they kill in greater
numbers....so far forty eyes for an eye, not including the
many maimed for life Palestinian babies & children.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree with you here. But what do you think is the reasoning behind the changing of stances in religions?

I don't think that reason has anything to do with it.
The herd meanders, driven by events, cultural change,
politics, hatred, & material gain.
I'll now consider the factors....not done yet.

 

[Sargonski]

Those who cheer Israel's murder & eviction of Palestinians
are worst than Hamas because they're the oppressors,
rather than the oppressed, & because they kill in greater
numbers....so far forty eyes for an eye, not including the
many maimed for life Palestinian babies & children.

Greater numbers indeed .. Total children dead in Ukraine war ~ 500 .. over 700 Days = 7 kids every 10 days.

24,000 dead in Gaza .. mostly women and children .. call it 8000 children over 100 days = 800 children every 10 days = Bibi over 100 times more evil than Putin. By this metric ..and is one of the best .. Putin is a gentle giant ... a role model for observing rules of armed conflict

Bibi on the other hand .. as well stated by the Irish Delegation to the UN ... "Hague is too good for Bibi"