Religion vs. Faith

[Unveiled Artist]

The part that I underlined and bolded is what is at issue here. If you have to go somewhere and do something to bolster your faith, it is not much of a faith to begin with, IMO. Doing those rituals can provide solace for some, but to make a statement that it strengthens what you have makes no sense to me. Either you have faith or you do not. I have complete faith in God. I need do nothing to make that better or worse. It just is. It does not waver.

I get your point And I disagree. People strengthen their faith in many ways. I did by ritual. Still do.

Maybe some depend on ritual, I dont know. Thats not the Catholic faith. That isnt what Catholicsm is about, rituals. You make it sound catholics have no faith because they use ritual.

Opinions and preferences are fine. Both are Not always fact.

@JoStories take your time. Read post 105. Its long. Wazanda and I ended it there.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@JoStories

Taking my experiences out of this.

Do you understand that customs, culture, and tradition are a part of an individuals faith in god?

Do you also know that customs, culture, and tradition shape the way the believer and/or community believes?

Do you know that customs, culture, and tradition define many religions to where faith is not abstract like love but a full immersion and identity?

Do you understand that the rituals you guys speak of are the customs, culture, and traditions that are a part of NOT in place of faith....that these shape how a believer and/or community believes, and define how many religions put their faith to action: charity, helping the homeless, and all the above?

Do you understand that customs, traditions, and culture do not stand alone without faith?

 

[wizanda]

My point: Wazanda belittled Catholics. Agreeing with him makes me assume likewise.

Sorry, yet I'm getting sick of this, as i wasn't meaning to come across as belittling 'all' Catholics...

Was simply stating that 'many' Catholics believe purely by doing ritual, that will count as having faith.

Where as faith is something real in my understanding, that if a person has faith, they will also be able to apply that to any task.

You keep applying your own practise with everyone else, which is just wrong, you can't say everybody is like you...

So i gave you examples, which you then used as evidence against me, rather than see it was to show you other perspectives.

Read post 105. Its long. Wazanda and I ended it there.

I'd given up on repeating myself to you before then, as you're not really listening to my replies...

Then said argue with the Straw man, as you're making up what you think i said, and have gotten worse as the conversation has progressed, now i just think you're being rude.

Post 105 did make me laugh tho, as you spent ages arguing with yourself, and misquoting me to make a case.... Yet to continue it, and then trying to show other people, is just rude.

Wazanda and you dont need to have rituals to have faith AND faith and rituals go hand in hand.

You clearly don't get what I've been saying; ritual doesn't lead to faith in the person, if they think it is a load of crap...

There are loads of Catholics who pay it lip service; yet think it is rubbish, you're saying anyone who does any ritual, automatically has faith.

It is the same as anything in life; you get what you put into it, if you've got no trust in doing something, then you don't get faith out of it.

Please dont yell (How you word your reply NOT your caps.)

JoStories has a disclaimer in their signature saying they're legally blind, you're not paying attention.

Just dogmatically going 'ritual must equal faith' repetitively; even if i swap to another religion that doesn't have faith as one of its precepts.

Maybe we should have another thread on this, so you can see that everyone agrees, you only get what you apply into something.

 

[Rajina]

Inspired by @Zardoz 's thread.
What's the difference between one's religion and one's faith?

From the Islamic perspective Faith is belief in God, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day and in the Predestination; Religion is our way of life.

When our Faith gets more stronger, our way of life gets more closer to Islam. But the reverse doesn't apply. Someone living an Islamic way of life need not necessarily have Faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry, yet I'm getting sick of this, as i wasn't meaning to come across as belittling 'all' Catholics...

Was simply stating that 'many' Catholics believe purely by doing ritual, that will count as having faith.

Where as faith is something real in my understanding, that if a person has faith, they will also be able to apply that to any task.

You keep applying your own practise with everyone else, which is just wrong, you can't say everybody is like you...

So i gave you examples, which you then used as evidence against me, rather than see it was to show you other perspectives.

I'd given up on repeating myself to you before then, as you're not really listening to my replies...

Then said argue with the Straw man, as you're making up what you think i said, and have gotten worse as the conversation has progressed, now i just think you're being rude.

Post 105 did make me laugh tho, as you spent ages arguing with yourself, and misquoting me to make a case.... Yet to continue it, and then trying to show other people, is just rude.

You clearly don't get what I've been saying; ritual doesn't lead to faith in the person, if they think it is a load of crap...

There are loads of Catholics who pay it lip service; yet think it is rubbish, you're saying anyone who does any ritual, automatically has faith.

It is the same as anything in life; you get what you put into it, if you've got no trust in doing something, then you don't get faith out of it.

JoStories has a disclaimer in their signature saying they're legally blind, you're not paying attention.

Just dogmatically going 'ritual must equal faith' repetitively; even if i swap to another religion that doesn't have faith as one of its precepts.

Maybe we should have another thread on this, so you can see that everyone agrees, you only get what you apply into something.

I dont know if you read 105 but I was speaking to jostories. There is a thread specifcally about annoyances on talking about religion here on RF. One person mentioned about when you (people in general not You) talk against the religion, you (in general) talk against its inheritants.

Some people (in general) are very strong minded about people going to hell yet these same people (in general) will say "but I wasnt talking about the people themselves" and I think, yes you (in general) are.

The statement (talking about your statement not you) of catholics are programmed is just beyond my ability to see that as objective--regardless if you are talking about aliens or jehospephat.

My overall point with @JoStories is that faith and culture/custums/traditions (rituals) are interrellated and for some, because of this, it strengthens our faith. My point with our conversation is I agree with a lot of what you say but as in 105 I point out different Ways you state your opinion as if all religious are in one boat.

The only way you will know and understand what I said (even if you disagree) is read the post. I read all posts, believe it or not, but I dont understand 85 percent of them because of the nature of this site.

105 is not a refute. If youbread the beginning Im just telling you my points. Jostories seem to not follow our full conversation and stuck at one point that I dont think he is getting I wont budge on.

I just know that rituals are not replaced with faith. There is no inside or hidden message in this statement nor my others. No indirect comments.

Thats why its best to read what I said, process it, and think "okay. I can see her point of view And I disagree"

I see your view.

I see jostories.

I dont understand what you two mean based on my opposing experiences. But at least I understand your points.

If I am wrong, please read what I say and quote me and correct me. I cant guess what you mean without full discussion. Same with everyone else on this board.

Read in full.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@wizanda

Sheesh. I agreed on most of what you said in all your posts. After reading all your posts, I honestly dont feel you are reading mine. Not with a critical eye but with an objective one.

Plus, how can you argue with yourself on a forum?

I posted my points. I agree with a lot of whst you said. How you say it and lack of specific words needed because of no body language makes your statements seem like generalizations.

Im at a loss here. Dont insult me with that statement. I am at a loss.

 

[wizanda]

catholics are programmed

Programmed simply means they've been given instructions to follow.

I dont know if you read 105 but I was speaking to jostories.

You were speaking to me in 105, and misquoting me to push your agenda.

Plus, how can you argue with yourself on a forum?

Do you even understand what a straw man is within a debate context?

It means you're misrepresenting the other person's side of the argument, by making a false representation of their belief, and then arguing against that.

makes your statements seem like generalizations.

I've made clear statements, 'not all', 'many', 'some'; you're making stuff up from your misunderstandings, and then arguing against it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

JoStories has a disclaimer in their signature saying they're legally blind, you're not paying attention.

Yeah. Im right. You didnt read my posts.

Read the sentence again. I said it sounded like he was yelling by HOW he words his posts Not the caps.

Was emphasing Not since I know he (and I) have visual impairments. So, I understand the caps. Ask for clarification or let it be if its not part of your overall point of his threads topic.

I talked with him before just it never got this intense.

 

[metis]

I think you are looking at it as if I said he is not an Orthodox Jew if he doesn't believe in G-d. But as you may have heard here before from other Orthodox Jews, the labels mean nothing and all that matters is the degree of conformity to Torah Law. So when I said "practicing Orthodox Judaism", I actually meant at the time he is performing a ritual according to Orthodox Torah Law.
So while performing a ritual, one ideally should have intent that one is performing the ritual to fulfill G-d's commandment (called "commandments [fulfillment] require intent). Minimally, if one doesn't have this intent, or if one intends specifically not to fulfill the commandment are split whether one has fulfilled the commandment or not. Not believing that there are any commandments to begin with, seems to be even less than that.
I will double check it today in case I'm wrong, but an example would be if a non-religious Jew would be circumcised by a doctor for medical reasons, he would still need blood drawn under the guise of "bris milah" in order to fulfill the commandment.
The point being that I"m drawing a distinction between "agnosticating" while riding the bus to work, where there's much less practical ramifications (perhaps a nullification of a positive commandment), and disbelief during the performance of a ritual. The latter potentially rendering the ritual void.

I would imagine that this falls under the category of doing something "not for [G-d's] sake in order to reach a level of doing it for [G-d's] sake". So I'm not saying that a Jew shouldn't fulfill the Law even if he doesn't believe, because maybe the rituals will affect him and he'll come to believe. I'm saying that in terms of actually fulfilling the Law's requirement to perform the ritual, its doubtful that he has done so and if a minute later he were to come to believe, he'd probably need to repeat the ritual in order to fulfill that requirement.
Also, its worth noting that I am not calling it zero-sum either as I stated in following post that belief can constantly be improved upon.
Also, its worth noting that what most people believe or do doesn't affect what I believe or do.

Thanks for the clarification, and I don't have much of a problem with the above.

The only thing that I would like to throw into this, however, is that I see your point more if the other is an out-and-out atheist versus if one is somewhat, or even quite, agnostic. The former has made up their mind, at least at that moment in time, but the latter is just saying "I don't know", which is obviously quite different because it is not an outright rejection of a belief in God.

To put it another way,I really don't see anything wrong with saying "I don't know" if one doesn't know.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Interesting.

Programmed simply means they've been given instructions to follow.

The wording spiked me. Indoctrinized yes, programmed? The words.

You were speaking to me in 105, and misquoting me to push your agenda.

1. Grammar error
2. What agenda? I was trying to wrap up the convo. I thought you "liked" it because I thought maybe you understood where I came from and nicely disagreed.

I guess I was wrong?

Do you even understand what a straw man is within a debate context?

It means you're misrepresenting the other person's side of the argument, by making a false representation of their belief, and then arguing against that.

1. Actuay no. The tone sounded more like an acusation so I didnt bother ask for clarification.

2. Misrepresenting whose side? You and Jostories? My apologize. I just go what I read in all you guys posts not cut and paste. Catholics? I had a relationship with the church. I feel I can defend it if I want to. That doesnt mean I agree with their morals. Just means I dont like seeing them belittled (by people in general--take out the You).

I have no underling agenda. Hidden message. Etc. Thats the worst thing and most annoying thing about communication on and off line for me. I have many reasons medically and so forth that makes it hard to articulate myself well (hence the long posts)

Excuse? Yes. Medically proven.

Just keep it objective.

I've made clear statements, 'not all', 'many', 'some'; you're making stuff up from your misunderstandings, and then arguing against i

I was focusing on your firsts posts. Your later posts still have the same points just you took the generalizations out a bit.

I still dont see how catholics replace faith with rituals....that was in a post but never got any clarification if thats what you meant.

Thats why debates happen. People (all of Us) skip over posts and take out what we want.

In my case, Im constantly editing.

 

[wizanda]

Read the sentence again. I said it sounded like he was yelling by HOW he words his posts Not the caps.

Sorry, i had assumed overall, because of the misconstruing what was being said.

People (all of Us) skip over posts and take out what we want.

Sorry, I'm generally looking to help expand the understanding, I'm not argumentative, and only like to make sure someone understands...

So i elaborate more as the conversation goes on to make it clearer.

Find with argumentative people, they generally keep going back to the original point, without allowing later aspects to be taken into account.

I still dont see how catholics replace faith with rituals.

No one has said that, you've made it up, and now spend pages arguing against your own idea.

A ritual is a practise, that on its own means nothing to do with faith.

Some people don't realize, the only real point of doing a ritual is the faith you put into it.

It's like a ritual is black and white, until you add faith, which makes it into colour.

Some people don't realize that, thus some religions have become dull by only following the ritual, and not the faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sorry, i had assumed overall, because of the misconstruing what was being said.

Sorry, I'm generally looking to help expand the understanding, I'm not argumentative, and only like to make sure someone understands...

So i elaborate more as the conversation goes on to make it clearer.

Find with argumentative people, they generally keep going back to the original point, without allowing later aspects to be taken into account.

No one has said that, you've made it up, and now spend pages arguing against your own idea.

A ritual is a practise, that on its own means nothing to do with faith.

Some people don't realize, the only real point of doing a ritual is the faith you put into it.

It's like a ritual is black and white, until you add faith, which makes it into colour.

Some people don't realize that, thus some religions have become dull by only following the ritual, and not the faith.

I try to go back to the original idea when the thread goes off topic. Gives me grounding on what Im supposed to talk about unless there is a smooth transition. In my head, there usually isnt so I need that guidepost.

Its true (I agree) that ritual means nothing without faith (sorry, cant always reword verbatum). I would not be surprised that some religious dont get that. I mean, thats on my couple of posts in thr OP that faith is the core of religion/religious practice. I never was comfortable with the word ritual. Makes people who have faith in ritual all drones or something.

Now I know some religious dont get it, of course. Ive see that too. In regards to Church rituals, some catholics replace faith with church rituals. Some use faith and forget about the rituals. Others use rituals to strengthen their faih. Others find the two inseperable.

Generally, yes, you need faith for rituals to be more than rituals.
I see faith in catholicism when practiced in faith and rituals based on faith.

Your other posts have a high negative or critical tone with catholic rituals (maybe an example?) and its relation to faith.

How does catholicism differ in regards to how they see faith when many catholics rituals are based on faith?

 

[wizanda]

Your other posts have a high negative or critical tone with catholic rituals (maybe an example?) and its relation to faith.

Was only a line or so about Catholics, was referring to any religion that gives its followers loads of rituals, and lets them believe it is away to, faith, enlightenment or Heaven.

How does catholicism differ in regards to how they see faith when many catholics rituals are based on faith?

First we've got to separate what is a religious belief, and what is faith from the heart.....

So a lot of what Catholicism/Christianity is based on, starts as a religious belief.

They have a religious belief, that through the death of jesus, it counts as an atoning sacrifice.

They can put their faith/trust into that belief being true...

So as you might notice, it is already a lot of steps away from the heart, before even reaching anything that we can call faith.

So then you do a ritual such as communion, you're believing, that it is the body and blood of jesus, you've got faith it is true...

Thus by doing it your expecting that the faith of Christ is taken into you, and you're becoming one with him.

Yet even within the text, Paul makes clear you've got to really believe it/have faith in it, otherwise it doesn't count.

So personally think that is a lot of leaps of faith, that don't necessarily add up, when we question it all.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now as a comparison, you have a ceremony on the beach, where you make a camp fire, every stone is placed as if by magic, as you trust in your heart that it is the right place.

The ceremony is an amazing success, thus you feel it is all helped by the faith put into laying the stones.
=========================================================================

Both are rituals, yet one to me provides instant faith; the other is often just a religious ritual, that hopes (faith) it will be a success.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

I try to go back to the original idea

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiv...ist_alone.22_or_.22through_Christ_alone.22.29

 

[Unveiled Artist]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiv...ist_alone.22_or_.22through_Christ_alone.22.29

Please add commemtary.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Please add commemtary.

http://ewtn.com/faith/teachings/index.asp

Sorry this one catholic link so you can compare difference thought you was sometimes being hit with argument from both side .

 

[Unveiled Artist]

For the record, and Ill put this in my sig...I cut and paste after reading the full post so I can separate what everyone says in my head. Its harder to post straight forward because my brain doesnt process everything and memorizes all at one time. Its also easier to refer back to points. Its not taking what you (and everyone else) say out of context. Im just rephrasing what you say and commenting based on what I think you said. Nothing refutive.

This is mixed up to help with how you related your points.

First we've got to separate what is a religious belief, and what is faith from the heart.....So a lot of what Catholicism/Christianity is based on, starts as a religious belief. They have a religious belief, that through the death of jesus, it counts as an atoning sacrifice.

They can put their faith/trust into that belief being true...

So as you might notice, it is already a lot of steps away from the heart, before even reaching anything that we can call faith.

So then you do a ritual such as communion, you're believing, that it is the body and blood of jesus, you've got faith it is true...

I understand what youre saying but dont understand your position. How is puting faith in a religious belief steps away from faith from the heart?

Thus by doing it your expecting that the faith of Christ is taken into you, and you're becoming one with him.

Yet even within the text, Paul makes clear you've got to really believe it/have faith in it, otherwise it doesn't count.

So personally think that is a lot of leaps of faith, that don't necessarily add up, when we question it all.

Catholics (some) do put faith/beliefs in rituals for it to count. Like the stones. Faith first. Ritual second. Instead faith when ritual is successful. When people have a relationship with the church, have faith without replacing it with ritual, and can do without the Eucharist for a month, then Id consider that faith from the heart.

If they are hands and feet in front the Eucharist ans cant find christ outside church walls, their faith is steps away from the heart.

The first rituals strengthen their faith. The latter, opposite.

Alot of indoctrinized people experience the latter. Because they felt they exchanged real faith ritual. Thats not what the CCC teaches. A lot of people can be misguided.

But then the church is based on peter's teachings, so I dont know how they conflict with pauls.

--
If faith is already in a catholics heart, they shouldnt expect christ to come in as if he isnt there first. They should have trust first. Having trust first in my opinion keeps that catholic less depended on ritual and more depended on his trust.

In the CCC I see it interpreted the opposite faith first without dependence on ritual. Its hard to see unless one reads the CCC. You see catholics floke to the Eucharist as though the Eucharist itself provide faith but Some catholics dont understand the Eucharistic experience is an success because they already had faith. Hopefully.

Now as a comparison, you have a ceremony on the beach, where you make a camp fire, every stone is placed as if by magic, as you trust in your heart that it is the right place.

The ceremony is an amazing success, thus you feel it is all helped by the faith put into laying the stones.

I dont see that different than how i see the church and experienced communion within it.

Unless I was a fake catholic, I dont see how one can have ritual without faith. I see a lot of catholics have faith first (usually around my age group).

---

Im still not understanding faith in religious belief is a step step away from faith from the heart?

**Unless youre saying their faith is based on ritual and not the heart?

 

[Quagmire]

Faith is what you believe.

Religion is a usually futile attempt to explain it to someone else.

 

[JoStories]

1. My point: Wazanda belittled Catholics. Agreeing with him makes me assume likewise.

2. Wazanda said that just because one does what yall call rituals doesnt mean one has faith.

I said. True. Doing rituals is not isolated. They go hand in hand with faith (real faith). I know because I experiences this as well as many people I know and been around.

Doing rituals does not void someones faith in christ. Bring in Catholicism shouldnt void it either. No one knows the relationship one has with christ rituals or not.

3. Faith and rituals go hand in hand. In my experience, when a person (and friend) cant attend Mass, they pray. They probably watch Mass on tv. Pray the rosery. And later go to confession.

Catholicism and other ritual (tradition, customs, and cultural related) religions are always Doing something in Relationz to their faith.

Why is that hard to understand?

Wazanda and you dont need to have rituals to have faith AND faith and rituals go hand in hand. Prayer is a ritual. Catholicism isnt the victim here.

4. Call me pagan, but I DO believe faith and rituals are interrelated.


I never said they are each other. I never said rituals replace faith. I said they are interrelated. Catholicism shouldnt be a victim here. Wazanda specifically said things against catholics based on their rituals and their programed lack of faith.

Look it up. Its the longest post in this thread.

I disagree with him on a lot of things AND he is going by his experience and study as am I. So no, I will not let up faith and ritual go hand in hand.

Experience and study of a faith shouldnt rid half of its inheritants lack of faith because they practice rituals.

Faith meaning trust (as I agreed with Wazanda)

Please dont yell (How you word your reply NOT your caps.)

First of all, I was not yelling, I emphasized that word, that is all. Now, I don't believe, IMO, that Wizanda ever belittled Catholics. I agree that rituals does not mean that someone does not have faith and that, yes, it can often strengthen that faith. I have said that multiple times. However, that being said, I strongly disagree that faith and rituals go hand in hand. But we have hammered this to death so we should agree to disagree. I read the post you have repeatedly referred me to. I didn't see anything new in that post that needed to be expounded upon. So ultimately we agree to disagree.

 

[JoStories]

Yeah. Im right. You didnt read my posts.

Read the sentence again. I said it sounded like he was yelling by HOW he words his posts Not the caps.

Was emphasing Not since I know he (and I) have visual impairments. So, I understand the caps. Ask for clarification or let it be if its not part of your overall point of his threads topic.

I talked with him before just it never got this intense.

I am not a HE Carlita. I am a female. Just wanted to clarify here.