Religion vs. Faith

[JoStories]

Faith is the core of religion and religious practice. It connects you to the foundation (values) and puts meaning in religious practice/your religion.

For example:
You have Beliefs/values/source which is gas in a car

Religion: Pressing the gas petal (with training, a license, and experience first)

Faith: Trust that you have enough gas and experience to get from A to B.

If you have no beliefs (religious or not) Why get to point B?
If you have no religion, How will you get to point B?
If you have no faith, are you just walking blindlessly? What motivates you to get to point B?

Religion is pointless without faith
Faith doesnt make sense without religion.

They go hand in hand.

I would disagree with you. While I have a rough form of religion, its not a true religion per se. However, I do have faith in God. One does not have to follow religious practice, IMO, to have faith. I am not sure what blindlessly means here but if you have faith, it is reflected in one's life. This, however, does not mean that it is a religious practice. Why does faith not make sense in the absence of religion? Can you not have faith in someone but not to put that faith into some external form? You seem to intimate that without some kind of practice, one cannot have faith and it is that which I strongly disagree with.

 

[JoStories]

Your religion is the book, the story ,the words
Faith is how much trust you put into those words

Why do you need a book to have faith? What if you lived before there were books? Would you not have faith then? Did they have books in the time of Mitras or the God of Noah or Moses? Perhaps, perhaps not. Mostly it was in the form of oral instruction but if we were to go back to the earliest faiths that we know of, such as Catal Huyuk, there was no books. So how then, did they have faith? If you are trying to say there is no faith in the absence of books, I could not disagree more.

 

[JoStories]

Do you see a difference between belonging to the Christian faith and being a part of the Christian religion? What about someone who believes in the [Christian] doctrine of Sola Fide? What religion does that person belong to?

Why do they have to belong to any religion? Why can a person not just have faith alone in the absence of religion? IMO, that is the purest form of faith. It is what, I believe, Thomas Merton was after when he went to the southeast in search of a more pure form of faith.

 

[JoStories]

Prayer, Sunday worship services, all the normal trappings of Christianity.

It's important to remember a few things about sola fide Christians:

- most (though IIRC not all) sola fide denominations preach that even though good works won't save you, once you are saved, you will receive the Holy Spirit and this will be expressed by doing good works.

- they don't necessarily think that good works will have zero effect on their eternal fate. Many believe that certain acts will gain them "reward in Heaven" even if they aren't a factor in the decision to send them to Heaven or Hell. So for some sola fide Christians, everyone who has faith goes to Heaven, but those who have faith AND do good works will get better treatment in Heaven.

- all that aside, there's nothing stopping a sola fide Christian from doing something if they just think that it's the right thing to do for its own sake.

I disagree. One does not have to attend church or pray or any of that to have faith. Faith is simply that, faith in God or whatever higher power one holds. Works may be how some manifest that faith but it not required to have that faith.

 

[JoStories]

I was under the impression that a Christian who believes in Sola Fide doesn't believe that he needs to do anything in order to enter heaven. I didn't know there was more to it than that.

IMO, you are correct in how you understand the concept. IMO, there is no need of works to have that faith. Thomas Merton, a priest, left that faith, in a manner of speaking, to find the faiths that the southeast has, which is to say a faith without the need for works. One spends their time in meditation, which some would say is works but I would disagree. One can spend hours of reflection on God but that does not mean it is works. It is simply study for study's sake.

 

[JoStories]

Faith is an action not just a feeling. Its like two people pulling the rope on either side: trust on one and action on the other. They both go back and forth rythmically.

I strongly disagree. I have a very strong faith but that faith does not require any actions on my part. I know I believe in God. But that does not require me to do anything to substantiate that. I am not sure why you think that it does. Why does faith have to be an action at all? Faith in internal, IMO.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Why does faith not make sense in the absence of religion? Can you not have faith in someone but not to put that faith into some external form?

I feel to have faith in someone or something it should be in external form. I have faith in the Dharma not because I believe it but because I Practice it. I have faith in my ancestors not I belief they exist but because I know theynexist from my being here, what I do, my personality, etc is based on them and their ancestors. My Practice (or religion) is building a relarionship with people I have yet to know.

Faith doesnt make sense if you are standing still. I can have faith I can fly. Muster up all my physiological senses. Really do some psychological acrobats but my faith doesnt mean anything to Me unless I attempt to do And confirm where I decide to put my faith in.

You seem to intimate that without some kind of practice, one cannot have faith and it is that which I strongly disagree with.

I dont understand how youd disagree or at least it just seeks common sense.

I have faith I can cook not because I wish it to be so (if thats the case, anyone can be experienced cooks on the spot):

But because I would have had training, practice, ans experience.

That is were my faith is built on. Then, when I cook Im "developing my faith". It wasnt there until I started practicing. Then it matured. And wallah! Its no longer faith its wisdom, knowledge, and experience.

All of which doesnt make sense without action (religion) and action doesnt make sense unless you have a motivator (faith).

What youre saying is like "I can get to the store by having a car, maybe some gas but I dont need to press the gas petal and I certainly dont need a reason to press the petal. I also dont need to trust where I go. If I go left and the store is right dont worry, I can get there."

Without pressing on the gas petal (religion) and without a guide-yourself, others, X (faith).

Its like you can get to point B without thinking and doing anyhing.

 

[Tumah]

I would hope in this case that another Christian would point out to this person James 2:14-26... the 'faith without works is dead' passage.

That's not a really good argument for those that subscribe to Sola Fide since obviously the church would be aware of that and yet still maintain that doctrine, but I've already received good ones from others.

 

[JoStories]

Its true. They say they "do nothing for their salvation". Its faith first, salvation, then action.

I dont know if Judaism is similar but I learned in Catholicism that its action, faith, then salvation.

We act by taking the sacraments
Which causes growing trust and faith in their truth
We are saved by keeping the sacraments to which we are reminded by action (taking the Eucharist) and reminded by faith or trust in the sacraments we take.

Sola scriptura christians see actions based on the holy spirit. So anything one does to grow into their salvation is void until they are saved.

I honestly never heard of a religion that teaches this other than christianity. All other religions I know put emphasis on practice.

But you're assuming that one has to have religion to have faith. I don't see it that way. One can practice all the parts of a religion, for example, Catholic faith, such as taking the sacraments, etc, and not believe in God. It can be mouthing to platitudes to please parents, for example.

 

[Tumah]

Why do they have to belong to any religion? Why can a person not just have faith alone in the absence of religion? IMO, that is the purest form of faith. It is what, I believe, Thomas Merton was after when he went to the southeast in search of a more pure form of faith.

I'm not discussing what people have to do, only how we would categorize such a person.

 

[JoStories]

I feel to have faith in someone or something it should be in external form. I have faith in the Dharma not because I believe it but because I Practice it. I have faith in my ancestors not I belief they exist but because I know theynexist from my being here, what I do, my personality, etc is based on them and their ancestors. My Practice (or religion) is building a relarionship with people I have yet to know.

Faith doesnt make sense if you are standing still. I can have faith I can fly. Muster up all my physiological senses. Really do some psychological acrobats but my faith doesnt mean anything to Me unless I attempt to do And confirm where I decide to put my faith in.



I dont understand how youd disagree or at least it just seeks common sense.

I have faith I can cook not because I wish it to be so (if thats the case, anyone can be experienced cooks on the spot):

But because I would have had training, practice, ans experience.

That is were my faith is built on. Then, when I cook Im "developing my faith". It wasnt there until I started practicing. Then it matured. And wallah! Its no longer faith its wisdom, knowledge, and experience.

All of which doesnt make sense without action (religion) and action doesnt make sense unless you have a motivator (faith).

What youre saying is like "I can get to the store by having a car, maybe some gas but I dont need to press the gas petal and I certainly dont need a reason to press the petal. I also dont need to trust where I go. If I go left and the store is right dont worry, I can get there."

Without pressing on the gas petal (religion) and without a guide-yourself, others, X (faith).

Its like you can get to point B without thinking and doing anyhing.

But as I just said, one can practice all those things that are required of one's religion and not have faith at all. I know this for fact as my mother made me go to church in my teens and I didn't believe in God at all nor did I have any faith in the notion. Your cooking example does not make sense as one cannot cook in the absence of training, or at least not well!, but one can have faith with no other manifestation required. You are equating actions here with all your examples. God does not require action, God requires that one believe in that concept; that being. That belief does not require anything more than belief. That is the essence of faith. Belief without evidence.

 

[JoStories]

I'm not discussing what people have to do, only how we would categorize such a person.

Why does one need to be categorized? You make me think of 1984, the novel. I don't need to be categorized to have faith. Nor do I need to be placed in some group for others to understand my belief or faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But as I just said, one can practice all those things that are required of one's religion and not have faith at all. I know this for fact as my mother made me go to church in my teens and I didn't believe in God at all nor did I have any faith in the notion. Your cooking example does not make sense as one cannot cook in the absence of training, or at least not well!, but one can have faith with no other manifestation required. You are equating actions here with all your examples. God does not require action, God requires that one believe in that concept; that being. That belief does not require anything more than belief. That is the essence of faith. Belief without evidence.

Faith doesnt make sense without practice. They go hand in hand. I dont believe in my ancestors because its in my heart. If that be the case anyone can believe too. The difference is I do things for them. I act And because I do, my faith develops more.

I have the gas: the beliefs/values my fam gave me
I have the faith: trusting that my values etc will benefit me, my life.

This is is fine and all but To Me,

I need to have action: giving offerings, ritual, prayer, meditation, charity, etc. Without this my faith means nothing. My values empty.

We disagree.

I dont believe in god. From my four year christen practice, I dont see how non Catholics (excluding JW, luthuren, etc) follow a religion when they consider practice of it is second.

If I believed in God, you better believe my belief wont be based on siting in a chair clicking the stations. My belief and faith would be there because of my practice and what I would do god.

The example with your mother is not the same as faith and action going hand in hand. You didnt have faith you Just had action.

You need both.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Religion isnt a category or a title you lump one a group of people. The religion one has is their identity. How they wish to identify as a follower of Christ, of God of Abraham, of God of Zues is on them.

But you're assuming that one has to have religion to have faith. I

Yes. Religion is a practice of ones faith.

I have a faith: Trust in my ancestors
I have a religion: I venerate (verb) my ancestors and family
I have values: What Ive been taught and learned alone about myself, my family, friends, etc. How these apply to me. How it helps me to help others. And so forth.

I need the values (gas). I need the faith, the reason and trusr in those values.

AND

I need the religion: the application of those values based on my trust in them.

--

How do you have faith in something you dont practice?

(From cooking to riding a bike)

One can practice all the parts of a religion, for example, Catholic faith, such as taking the sacraments, etc, and not believe in God. It can be mouthing to platitudes to please parents, for example.

Many Catholics practice because of their faith in Christ.

Unlike some protestant churches, Catholicism puts emphasis on repetence, communion, private devotion, and prayer. All of these are action words.

If you dont have Faith (trust) why Do anything? It goes hand in hand.

Least thats my experience. I went in as an adult so I didnt juet mouth words I didnt know. They meant something. Holding hands in communion ans taking the sacraments, those actions meant something to me. They had confirmed my faith in god.

In general, its like youre saying actions/religion are not a part of faith. Maybe for yourself but not all of us see it that way nor define it as such.

 

[wizanda]

Religion isnt a category or a title you lump one a group of people.

Yes it is, a religion by definition 'is a group of people with a fundamental belief'.

How do you have faith in something you dont practice?

Because faith comes from within, so if you've got strong faith in your self as saying; then you'll have the confidence to do other tasks you've never tried, and be successful as faith carries you through.

Saying you've got faith in something or someone, when you're completely lacking in faith in your self, means it doesn't stand up to much.

Many Catholics practice because of their faith in Christ.

Catholics have been programmed that way, that faith is following religious ritual; yet that is a religious belief, it isn't faith...

Not even sure following dogmatic ritualistic behavior ever arrives at having trust in your self (faith).

That is the essence of faith. Belief without evidence.

Agree with a lot of what you're saying; yet these lines step back into a religious usage of the words.... Faith doesn't mean what Paul ascribed to it, 'that faith is the hope of things not seen'.

Faith simply means to trust, the later usage is because of Paul ascribing, 'the faith' to mean a religious belief.

Like it says the whole world will be deceived by the Anti-Christ's teachings, and yet most are unaware that is even happening at a word definition level as well.

The Hebrew word for 'faith' is 'to trust' as well, they weren't talking about following religious beliefs; yet sadly due to priests creating religion, many people are left with a shadow of what the followers of God had.

the 'faith without works is dead' passage.

When you know Christianity is established on the teachings of Paul....Who wants to follow James and Yeshua when they're saying have faith in yourself first, its much easier to have faith in someone else.

What's the difference between one's religion and one's faith?

So after reading lots of the replies in this thread, it is beginning to make me wonder... If to some:

One's religion is where people practise beliefs, in the hopes it might give them faith (trust), like the thing they're supposed to be following had.
One's faith is where people have trust in themselves, thus can apply it to other things.

Obviously within that, we still need to recognize that some people have been misled into seeing 'a religion' as meaning the same thing, as 'a faith'.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Why do you need a book to have faith? What if you lived before there were books? Would you not have faith then? Did they have books in the time of Mitras or the God of Noah or Moses? Perhaps, perhaps not. Mostly it was in the form of oral instruction but if we were to go back to the earliest faiths that we know of, such as Catal Huyuk, there was no books. So how then, did they have faith? If you are trying to say there is no faith in the absence of books, I could not disagree more.

Much better defenitions where to follow , am lazy and do not enjoy to play with the alphabet .Numerology I enjoy
Yes the blind man can know god , but is year 2016 my granddaughter faith coming from the words, artwork right now as she is to young to make her own tiny vulnerable little mind up ,she has not heard of doubt as the have not reached that part , they save that part to scare you before you are packed off to high school , speak for her also
I know she was not convinced as on her first encounter with religion she asked " Granddad who is Jesus ".?

Hate written English don't really enjoy this kind of discussion , despise the keyboard Q takes the position of A ?,the keyboard manipulated to make it easier to copy the words of another but more difficult to use for your own, but being the middle ground is my duty to be heard .
Is all old minds here I'm 45 physically as strong if not stronger than ever , stamina is slowly fading , future depends on the young , they more important than our own belief , I do not sacrifice her ever she shares a class with 23 other students .
Is called advanced subjective abstract theology .
Onward Christian soldiers fighting for human rights and freedom and that is the reality of 2016 .Still and still having to fight to keep them .

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes it is, a religion by definition 'is a group of people with a fundamental belief'.

In context rather than strict partial definition, if you notice people slap religious titles as if they slap on a par of pants from another each day. Its an identity. When I practiced Catholicism, saying I am Catholic did not mean "JUST a relationship with Christ". It meant the whole caching. His body. His blood. Repentence. Salvation. Resurrection. Communion. God, how they defined it, was inengraved in me.

So its not just put on a group. Its a personal identifier. I only notice us minorities use certain words that main people use as titles as our cultural identifiers. Christians dont seem to do that. But I bet you a Muslim is proud to be Muslim and a Jew a Jew..not because it is a title by tradition and personal connection (in this case and god) but because it is Who they are.

Catholics have been programmed that way, that faith is following religious ritual; yet that is a religious belief, it isn't faith...

Not even sure following dogmatic ritualistic behavior ever arrives at having trust in your self (faith).

No they are not. That is just so, so rude.

You have to actually have faith in God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and His Body to understand why Catholics practice faith rather than just believe in it.

It wont come from books. Actual involvement in heart and soul not from a bias perspective. Catholicism isnt for everyone and I hate when its belittled.

--

Why have faith in something you dont practice?

 

[Windwalker]

A religion acts simply as support structures for faith. It protects and offers the symbols and stories of a group of people or a culture to those seeking to grow and develop their faith and identities. It is the external forms of internal faith, operating in multiple domains both external and internal in the ways the infrastructures of a society are the external structural supports to maintain the cohesion of interior culture. The cultural experience is a shared interior reality created by individual subjects in relations with one another. The laws and protecting elements of society protect and support that culture. And in the best of worlds, the internal and the external work and grow together without one either dominated, or seeing to destroy the other. They help co-evolve one another. An unhealthy system is when religion or society dominates culture and the individual, or fails to keep up with culture or the individual.

 

[metis]

IMO, you are correct in how you understand the concept. IMO, there is no need of works to have that faith. Thomas Merton, a priest, left that faith, in a manner of speaking, to find the faiths that the southeast has, which is to say a faith without the need for works. One spends their time in meditation, which some would say is works but I would disagree. One can spend hours of reflection on God but that does not mean it is works. It is simply study for study's sake.

Actually, that is not true in terms of what Merton said. What he did say is that his Catholic/Christian faith was enhanced, especially with his exposure to Buddhist teachings. Remember that he was a monk, and there are some common characteristics that are shared with both Catholic and Buddhist monks.

BTW, ever read "The Seven Story Mountain"? Excellent book.

And, btw, I say much the same in regards to it also having a significant influence on my "brand" Judaism. One of the words in the Vietnamese language for Buddhism also means "common sense", and much of dharma is just that, common sense-- although sometimes it ain't too common.

 

[wizanda]

You have to actually have faith in God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and His Body to understand why Catholics practice faith rather than just believe in it.

See to me you're not even discussing faith (trust), you're discussing religious practises as being faith...

Faith to me would be Catholics who go out in dangerous environments to help the needy, because they believe Yeshua and God are watching over them....That was what the Bible calls 'faith leading to works'.

Going to mass, doing holy communion, ceremonial prayer, confession, etc, are religious rituals, and don't necessarily have anything to do with trust/faith.

Plus if you understood what Yeshua was saying, you'd see what I'm questioning, is the exact same issue he had with the Pharisees, as is now being discussed about the Catholics.

Yeshua was saying about faith to go the extra mile, to learn more talents, to share everything we have, as God would provide; not some superficial religious practise to look good before others.

Why have faith in something you dont practice?

Trust doesn't need any religious practises, it is just a switch in our hearts....

Like some people will say it takes work to have trust in someone, and yet it doesn't, it is just a choice.

I practise skateboarding, even bought some drift skates lately, and tho they look sort of scary, I've got faith that it will all go OK without much practise.

Now if someone wrote a book, and said it is the ultimate guide for skateboarding, and without it, we've not got faith to skate, we'd say they were mad.

You just do it, if you want to have enlightenment, 'seek and you shall find', 'knock and the door shall open', that is faith.