Religion vs. Everything else

[monkeyman]

I'm a Catholic of origin and would never go to any religion except Catholicism. Only place I would go is secularism.

I lost faith big time a couple of years ago. Felt like my whole world fell down around me. Lost faith in most people too.

Tried to rediscover Catholicism in past few months, but still have little faith in religion or people generally beyond tribal interests.

A problem I used to have is, how can priests deny themselves the magic of romantic entaglements and the romantic love that goes beyond lust (as well as I guess the lust)?

A problem I now have is, what do you do if religious and national or any other interests conflict as they often do [without going into personal/controversial examples]?

Note to Moderator: I'd like to change my title to something more directly related to Catholicism. Why can't I do this?

How can you just all of a sudden deny your own personal opinions or instincts on one Pope's whim?

And if you're a liberal Catholic, how can you justify being an oxymoron? How can you belong to a religion that states all authority and rules come from the Pope, break those rules and at the same time call yourself a Catholic?

Note to Moderator: I'd like to change the title of my post to something more directly related to Catholicism. Why can't I do this?

 

[Mister Emu]

A problem I used to have is, how can priests deny themselves the magic of romantic entaglements and the romantic love that goes beyond lust (as well as I guess the lust)?

Because they are called by God to do so... for what it is worth, I am not particularly fond of mandatory priestly celibacy... I much prefer the Eastern way(and there are Catholics under the Pope of Eastern rites)...

A problem I now have is, what do you do if religious and national or any other interests conflict as they often do [without going into personal/controversial examples]?

That is a decision the individual has to make, as you may know, the Church teaches one to follow their conscience above all...

Note to Moderator: I'd like to change my title to something more directly related to Catholicism. Why can't I do this?

Let me know what you want and I'll get it for you

How can you just all of a sudden deny your own personal opinions or instincts on one Pope's whim?

It is difficult... and you can disagree with the Pope on many issues, you don't have to be exactly like him...

 

[monkeyman]

You can't disjoin the Pope from Catholicism. It's the central thesis of the Church. I think "live and let live, just don't tell me about your conquests" with regard to homosexuals, for instance, but the Catholic Church views them as sinners full stop.

I have a couple of gay mates and they're nice people. I find it a bit weird when they talk about boyfriends etc. but that's beyond the point. How can you condemn the act without the person? It's like Geert Wilders saying he thinks Islam is retarded, but not the Muslims who follow it.

You can't think an act is a sin without condemning all that commit or want to commit it as sinners. And that's taking into account what Jesus said about anyone thinking lustfully as having committed adultery and a grave sin. So even if you're just walking down the street and you happen to see an attractive person and become aroused by the sight of them (not full blown erection, but "(s)he's really pretty... if only (s)he were my girlfriend/boyfriend...) - that's a sin right there. Am I supposed to look down on myself and everyone who has these perfectly human, natural, instinctual reactions as a sinner and a bad person?

 

[monkeyman]

In regard to the division of religious and natural issues, what would a Catholic do if he lived in Spain or Germany in the late 30's or early 40's? The Church was in the hands of murderous dictatorships, despite the New Testament preeching live and let live and all that stuff.

How could one deal with this???

Surely it's better to admit that all humans are a great big muddle of genes and screwed up evolution which can't be rectified than fooling yourself into thinking you're not holy, or good, enough just by being human and individual, and therefore you need these sometimes contradictory yet passionate beliefs to elevate yourself into levels of self-worth and -esteem.

 

[Mister Emu]

You can't disjoin the Pope from Catholicism. It's the central thesis of the Church.

Indeed, I never said that you could... I just said that you could disagree with the Pope on many issues, which you can... As I noted, I disagree with the Pope on the issue of priestly celibacy as a discipline...

I think "live and let live, just don't tell me about your conquests" with regard to homosexuals, for instance, but the Catholic Church views them as sinners full stop.

Indeed, but the Church considers us all as sinners

How can you condemn the act without the person? It's like Geert Wilders saying he thinks Islam is retarded, but not the Muslims who follow it.

I would not say it is quite like that... but even so, calling an act a sin is indeed calling the person a sinner, however, that does not mean that you are calling them evil, or condemning them to hell...

So even if you're just walking down the street and you happen to see an attractive person and become aroused by the sight of them (not full blown erection, but "(s)he's really pretty... if only (s)he were my girlfriend/boyfriend...) - that's a sin right there

If your conscience says it is... then maybe it is for you... the sin in my eyes would be more thinking "**** I'd like to **** the **** out of her"... I think there is a difference from being attracted to someone and being lustful...

Am I supposed to look down on myself and everyone who has these perfectly human, natural, instinctual reactions as a sinner and a bad person?

Well, on the whole, we are all sinners... that does not mean we are all evil, or bad... but none of us is good(at least according to Jesus )

 

[roli]

I'm a Catholic of origin and would never go to any religion except Catholicism. Only place I would go is secularism.

Is their a difference between being Christian and catholic.
Did Jesus encounter catholics in the Roman empirer and who was he referring to when he spoke to the Roman priests.

I lost faith big time a couple of years ago. Felt like my whole world fell down around me. Lost faith in most people too.

I'm not clear on why ,but understand the loss of faith in people.

Tried to rediscover Catholicism in past few months, but still have little faith in religion or people generally beyond tribal interests.

Have you tried Christ verses religious institutions?

A problem I used to have is, how can priests deny themselves the magic of romantic entaglements and the romantic love that goes beyond lust (as well as I guess the lust)?

Man made traditions over God's call.

A problem I now have is, what do you do if religious and national or any other interests conflict as they often do [without going into personal/controversial examples]?

Secular world will always conflict with any religious journey.

How can you just all of a sudden deny your own personal opinions or instincts on one Pope's whim?

He's a man and susceptible to failure, trust in God ,call on your God for truth and revelation.

And if you're a liberal Catholic, how can you justify being an oxymoron? How can you belong to a religion that states all authority and rules come from the Pope, break those rules and at the same time call yourself a Catholic?

That is a catholic position ,but God knows your situation and will meet you at your need.

 

[zenzero]

Friend monkeyman,

A problem I now have is, what do you do if religious and national or any other interests conflict as they often do [without going into personal/controversial examples]?

This is the biggest problem faced by all enlightened men. They have realised true FREEDOM but unfortunately those who profess their [enlightened people's] Path / way / religion themselves are not enlightened as to what Religion means and so misinterpret it the way their own MINDS perceive.
kindly understand that true religion is all about SELF discovery. It is all about knowing who am * I * and that can only be done by going through life and learning about it and realising it.

Personally am not a part of any organised religion but am religious in my own WAY.
Love & rgds

 

[monkeyman]

Emu, could you tell me more against this Eastern way because I didn't think it was possible to disjoin the beliefs and opinions of the Pope with what Catholics are supposed to believe by the very nature of the church.

The difference between fancying someone and at least subconsciously wanting to have sex with them if the opportunity presented itself and they weren't promiscuous... it's almost potato potato. People have argued it's the unconscious desire of the human species to reproduce and leave a bit of yourself behind.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Monkeyman,

unconscious desire of the human species

Religion is all about being *CONSCIOUS* by bring out all that lies in the unconscious zone to the conscious level.

Love & rgds

 

[lockyfan]

i follow the principles set in the bible.

So on the whole thing about why priests stop themselves from being with another person, can someone show me where in the bible it actually says that theey cant, because as far as i know they should go and find a lovely female to settle with.

Dont get involved with anything to do with nationalism is my advice, because pretty soon Jehovah will get rid of the nations and we will all come under his kingdom

I wouldnt listen to the pope, remember the catholic church was created in opposition to Christs followers. plus all authority comes from God not a pope. So trust in God and pray that he will lead you to where you need to be.

Always remember

Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it. Matthew 6:13&14

 

[ChristineES]

I found my faith first, then later found a denomination to go to services. In other words, I never had faith in some religion, but in God. Having faith is more important to me than trying to affix to some set of rituals and going to services is important for fellowship.
Did you lose your faith in God or in your faith in Catholicism? That is a question you should ask yourself.

 

[tumbleweed41]

My advice is to follow your own path. What are your core beliefs? Do you accept that the Bible is Reveled Revelation? Do you need a Personal Savior? Do you believe in God? How do your answers fit into what you see around you? I have been there, and found comfort in my beliefs, you need to do the same. Do not try to wrap yourself around a religion or non-religion, let who you are guide you to where you need to be.

 

[Alceste]

I agree with Christine - if you lean toward reason, as it seems from your posts that you do, you first should try to understand what it was you still had faith in (if anything) when everything else fell apart. Find that and build on it. Religion should come later, if it fits. It could be you never find a religious community that reflects your faith or the perspective you gain from spiritual contemplation. It's not much of a loss, though, considering everything you have to gain from accepting complete responsibility for your own heart and mind.

If it turns out you are a theist, you will have a personal relationship with your god or gods. You don't need any middle men - your god will guide you. If you don't feel personally connected to your god in the context of your religion, it's not the religion for you.

 

[lockyfan]

My advice is to follow your own path. What are your core beliefs? Do you accept that the Bible is Reveled Revelation? Do you need a Personal Savior? Do you believe in God? How do your answers fit into what you see around you? I have been there, and found comfort in my beliefs, you need to do the same. Do not try to wrap yourself around a religion or non-religion, let who you are guide you to where you need to be.

Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.”—PROVERBS 3:5, 6.


I follow that scripture. leaning on your own understanding can make things go awry

 

[tumbleweed41]

Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight.”—PROVERBS 3:5, 6.


I follow that scripture. leaning on your own understanding can make things go awry

And how is one to find the truth by ignoring ones own understanding. God gave us intelligence and reason. We are not sheep, we are human.

 

[lockyfan]

And how is one to find the truth by ignoring ones own understanding. God gave us intelligence and reason. We are not sheep, we are human.

Well we are actually God's sheep

Jesus is our shepherd

John 10:13-16 because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep. “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd

Matthew 25:32-35 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably

 

[tumbleweed41]

Well we are actually God's sheep

Jesus is our shepherd

So you do not believe in Freewill? Does God want us to follow him blindly?

 

[lockyfan]

we have free will and the thing is I dont follow him blindly. I follow Jehovah with two eyes firmly planted on the new system and Gods Kingdom Paradise. the reward for sticking it out through to the end of this system and following Jehovahs guidance

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

its more of a guidance than a blind following

Psalms 46:1 God is for us a refuge and strength,
A help that is readily to be found during distresses.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Bad analogy on the biblical writers part then, sheep are creatures of very low intelligence, who will blindly follow anyone who leads them. Rarely looking at what is ahead, or what dangers the shepherd will lead them into. Just blind trust.

 

[lockyfan]

depends on whtherv the cshepherd is good or bad

A good shepherd will only lead his sheep through clear passages and into no harm

Jesus is that Shepherd.

Shepherding us towards the paradise

Psalm 37:11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.