Religion and War....

[Imagist]

What wars? Certainly not World Wars I and II.

Don't be ridiculous.

World war I was fought due to a set of alliances forged very much in the fires of religious conflict since before the time of the crusades.

Word war II was driven largely by anti-Semitism which has roots in the writings of Martin Luther, considered a German national hero by the Germans of the time.

Certainly not the American Civil War or Revolutionary War.

The revolutionary war was in part a war to gain religious freedom, founded in the beliefs of the Puritans and other groups who settled the Americas for religious reasons.

The civil war was founded in the abolitionist teachings of the quakers, shakers, and puritans of the north, and the southern Christian pro-slavery teachings based in the writings of Paul from the bible.

Certainly not the Vietnam War or even the more recent Persian Gulf Wars (though I do believe that the terrorist acts surrounding these wars are largely fueled by religious beliefs).

The Vietnam war was fueled by anti-communist feeling which was largely fueled by the religious in America.

The Persian gulf wars are responses to radical Islam, and in part are fueled by the religious right in America.

Also - not the wars that rage in Africa.

Which ones? The Darfur conflicts are tied to Christian and Muslim interaction and along with tribal religions. The conflicts in Sierra Leone were primarily cultural but were supported by the local tribal dieties. And let's not forget that nearly ALL of the conflicts in Africa have their roots in colonialism and slavery from Europe, which was excused by biblical arguments based on which of Abraham's sons was favored by god.

Now, I'm not going to argue that atheism doesn't have some black marks on its record also. Totalitarian communism is strongly linked to atheism, and there's no denying that. And in that vein, I've never supported the argument that the bad actions of some or even most religious people should reflect on all religious people.

But let's not whitewash the records. Religion has played a key role in nearly EVERY war ever fought. It may not have been the primary factor in all wars, but to claim that no major war has been caused by religion is blatantly preposterous.

 

[Kathryn]

Don't be ridiculous.

World war I was fought due to a set of alliances forged very much in the fires of religious conflict since before the time of the crusades.

Word war II was driven largely by anti-Semitism which has roots in the writings of Martin Luther, considered a German national hero by the Germans of the time.



The revolutionary war was in part a war to gain religious freedom, founded in the beliefs of the Puritans and other groups who settled the Americas for religious reasons.

The civil war was founded in the abolitionist teachings of the quakers, shakers, and puritans of the north, and the southern Christian pro-slavery teachings based in the writings of Paul from the bible.



The Vietnam war was fueled by anti-communist feeling which was largely fueled by the religious in America.

The Persian gulf wars are responses to radical Islam, and in part are fueled by the religious right in America.



Which ones? The Darfur conflicts are tied to Christian and Muslim interaction and along with tribal religions. The conflicts in Sierra Leone were primarily cultural but were supported by the local tribal dieties. And let's not forget that nearly ALL of the conflicts in Africa have their roots in colonialism and slavery from Europe, which was excused by biblical arguments based on which of Abraham's sons was favored by god.

Now, I'm not going to argue that atheism doesn't have some black marks on its record also. Totalitarian communism is strongly linked to atheism, and there's no denying that. And in that vein, I've never supported the argument that the bad actions of some or even most religious people should reflect on all religious people.

But let's not whitewash the records. Religion has played a key role in nearly EVERY war ever fought. It may not have been the primary factor in all wars, but to claim that no major war has been caused by religion is blatantly preposterous.

I have one word for all this:

S-T-R-E-T-C-H

 

[Enoch07]

Quote from Imagist : But let's not whitewash the records. Religion has played a key role in nearly EVERY war ever fought. It may not have been the primary factor in all wars, but to claim that no major war has been caused by religion is blatantly preposterous.

You admit that it was not the primary factor, but you claim its is the cause. That does not make any sense. That is a direct contradiction of your own words. There have been wars fought falsely under the banner of religion. But that is only because evil men wanted to put a happy face on it. You sir have been deceived by your own sense of factual reality.

Take for instance today. There are Islamic terrorist that kill people and wage war. These Islamic terrorist are greedy men who search for power and will do anything to get it. They use the faith of Islam to try and justify their actions. But it is not the teachings of Islam that are what is causing these men to kill. It is their own evil lust and desires. If you believe it was Islam then these terrorist have deceived you. Tell me you are not that foolish to be deceived by some desert rat terrorist punks.

 

[Tristesse]

Quote from Imagist : But let's not whitewash the records. Religion has played a key role in nearly EVERY war ever fought. It may not have been the primary factor in all wars, but to claim that no major war has been caused by religion is blatantly preposterous.

You admit that it was not the primary factor, but you claim its is the cause. That does not make any sense. That is a direct contradiction of your own words. There have been wars fought falsely under the banner of religion. But that is only because evil men wanted to put a happy face on it. You sir have been deceived by your own sense of factual reality.

Take for instance today. There are Islamic terrorist that kill people and wage war. These Islamic terrorist are greedy men who search for power and will do anything to get it. They use the faith of Islam to try and justify their actions. But it is not the teachings of Islam that are what is causing these men to kill. It is their own evil lust and desires. If you believe it was Islam then these terrorist have deceived you. Tell me you are not that foolish to be deceived by some desert rat terrorist punks.

Yeah, those suicide bombers are so power driven. They kill themselves because they don't really think there getting 72 virgins in the afterlife, but just want money and power.

 

[Enoch07]

Yeah, those suicide bombers are so power driven. They kill themselves because they don't really think there getting 72 virgins in the afterlife, but just want money and power.

Those guys are just cowards and idiots haha. The fact they strap a bomb to themselves to kill people is proof. Do you really believe anything they would say? I sure hope not cause then you would be just as guilty rofl.

 

[Tristesse]

Those guys are just cowards and idiots haha. The fact they strap a bomb to themselves to kill people is proof. Do you really believe anything they would say? I sure hope not cause then you would be just as guilty rofl.

Why else would they willingly end there life if they weren't certain? I think those men are mistaken. Killing yourself has to be one of the biggest forms of certainty.

 

[Enoch07]

Can't believe you are defending terrorist murderers. And for you believe the lie that they do it for God? Trist I suggest you log off and figure out your life out before posting here anymore. If you have come to a point where you willing to believe this it is a sad sad sad day.

 

[Tristesse]

Can't believe you are defending terrorist murderers. And for you believe the lie that they do it for God? Trist I suggest you log off and figure out your life out before posting here anymore. If you have come to a point where you willing to believe this it is a sad sad sad day.

When did I say I was defending them? Wow, how very christian of you, telling others what to do, how's that working out for ya bud.

 

[blackout]

I would say for the most part nowdays, (elite) leaders plan, execute, and create wars,
and prepare media propaganda for whatever groups they want to rally support from.
(which of course includes their own religious masses)

I'm no historian, but I'm sure I can say that in earlier centuries,
"church" had a much more direct and overt position in politics.
(at least in European countries and the Western world)

It is a tactic of leaders to keep people divided and at odds with one another.
This of course ensures that the whole political circus keep the big tent of 'parties'
performing for the people.

Just like on a Chess board though,
the "bishops" flank the "king and queen".
(....church...............elite rulership)

I think the rooks might be today's media towers?
Knights maybe are people "suited" to influence the pawns?
(could be actors/icons/scientists/"experts" )

*how did I wind up on the black and white parquet?*

Can pawns upgrade to Magus? (I can't remember! chess brainfart)
What happens when a pawn makes it all the way to the other end of the board
without capture?

 

[Enoch07]

Pawns can become any piece you want it to be other than the king, if they make it all the way to the other side. Do you think that the leaders of wars do it for God or for their own pockets?

 

[blackout]

Pawns can become any piece you want it to be other than the king, if they make it all the way to the other side. Do you think that the leaders of wars do it for God or for their own pockets?

Ahhh yes... thank you Enoch.
I thought Pawns could 'change their covering' if uncaptured.
Magus indeed.

Ermmmm.... I'm pretty sure "god" is almost always an excuse (or rally)
used from the upper levels down. They have their own plans in mind.
Down just a bit from the top, yes... more and more
believe they are fighting for "god's cause".
Truth quickly downstreams to propaganda.

(and there is different propaganda for different levels of different groups)

 

[Enoch07]

Haha Your answers always crack me up no matter how much I agree or disagree with them. Well done. And when I say well done I mean on being creative with how you answer the question, not the actual answer itself. ;p

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Actually religion was certainly a driver behind some of WW2, i.e. Shintoism, and Chistianitiy in the form of anti-semitism.

I'm not sure how you get that. Nationalism is nationalism even if (as in the case of Germany) the leadership claims "God is with us" or if (as in the case of Japan) the monarchy is tied up in the national religion. Neither country's involvement of WWII was a result of any doctrine of Christianity or Shinto.

 

[Imagist]

You admit that it was not the primary factor, but you claim its is the cause. That does not make any sense. That is a direct contradiction of your own words.

primary 2a. of first rank, importance, or value. link

In other words, there are many causes, and religion is one of them.

There have been wars fought falsely under the banner of religion. But that is only because evil men wanted to put a happy face on it.

Would you agree then, that if religion didn't exist, it would have been much harder for these evil men to put a happy face on those wars?

 

[Imagist]

I have one word for all this:

S-T-R-E-T-C-H

Making a statement in large brightly-colored capitals doesn't make it true. Do you have an actual argument?

 

[Kathryn]

Hey, I'm done marketing for most of my career. I did it to draw attention to the word, and I can see that it worked.

I do have an argument however. You listed a lot of wars and insisted that religion was at the root of them, no matter what the other causes were. I am saying that you may as well say "human nature" caused them - which would be about as true as your assertions. Your claim that religion caused most of those wars is too vague.

 

[gnomon]

What i have noticed over the years, is that most wars, civil wars, or battles tend to be caused by certain religions, or have religion involved.

So are these religions the best place to promote peace and inner wellbeing?

IAA

One would be hard pressed to find many wars over the last few centuries in which religion was a cause of war.

Merely stating that wars involve religion is about as useful as stating that wars involve music and dance as well. Because they do.

And for everyone............religion has practically nothing to do with driving WW2.

Let's not be stupid.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

It's worth noting, I think, that some religions explicitly promote and endorse peace!

I quote from the Baha'i scriptures:

“O people of the earth!
“The first Glad-Tidings which the Mother Book hath, in this Most Great Revelation, imparted to all the peoples of the world is that the law of holy war hath been blotted out from the Book. Glorified be the All-Merciful, the Lord of grace abounding, through Whom the door of heavenly bounty hath been flung open in the face of all that are in Heaven and on earth.
“The second Glad-Tidings . . .”
--Tablets of Baha’u’llah, pp. 21-22

“Beware lest he shed the blood of anyone. Unsheathe the sword of your tongue from the scabbard of utterance, for therewith ye can conquer the citadels of men’s hearts. We have abolished the law to wage holy war against each other. God’s mercy, hath, verily, encompassed all created things, if ye do but understand. Aid ye your Lord, the God of Mercy, with the sword of understanding. Keener indeed is it, and more finely tempered, than the sword of utterance, were ye but to reflect upon the words of your Lord. Thus have the hosts of Divine Revelation been sent down by God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting, and thus have the armies of divine inspiration been made manifest from the Source of command, as bidden by God, the All-Glorious, the Best-Beloved.”
--The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p 23

Best,

Bruce

 

[Storm]

It's worth noting, I think, that some religions explicitly promote and endorse peace!

All the modern religions I'm familiar with do. It's just that, as time and tradition accumulate, loopholes develop, and there are always those willing to exploit them.

 

[Imagist]

I do have an argument however. You listed a lot of wars and insisted that religion was at the root of them, no matter what the other causes were. I am saying that you may as well say "human nature" caused them - which would be about as true as your assertions. Your claim that religion caused most of those wars is too vague.

Wars are generally very complex, and have many causes. Yes, human nature is usually (always?) one of the causes of a war. Religion is also usually a cause. I don't see what is vague about that.