Religion and Paradox

[syo]

Paradox does not exist in my religion (a pagan one).

 

[Left Coast]

Paradox does not exist in my religion (a pagan one).

Which variety of paganism do you practice, syo?

 

[syo]

Which variety of paganism do you practice, syo?

Polytheism. In polytheism we have 33 million Gods (the Hindus found the number in this one ) so everything we experience has it's own God. All Gods create the Cosmos and each God fits. So nothing is strange. (I hope Im not offtopic)

 

[Left Coast]

Polytheism. In polytheism we have 33 million Gods (the Hindus found the number in this one ) so everything we experience has it's own God. All Gods create the Cosmos and each God fits. So nothing is strange. (I hope Im not offtopic)

Not off topic, I was just curious.

 

[Fool]

According to people who are supposed to know, a paradox is, "A seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."
Paradox | Meaning of Paradox by Lexico

For a while now, it has struck me how religion is the ritualization of paradox. Various paradoxes are central to the teachings of a variety of religions. In Zen Buddhism, for example, one meditative technique used by practitioners are koans, which are paradoxical statements, questions, stories, etc. used to open one's mind and awareness to a deeper understanding than may be immediately obvious. Throughout Eastern religions, there is a common thread that understands reality as "non-dual," which itself is a paradoxical insight that perceives the oneness or unity of all things despite their apparent differences and separateness.

Paradox exists in the Abrahamic traditions as well. Christianity, with which I'm most familiar, utilizes a number of paradoxes in its theology, including certain understandings of the Eucharist (bread and wine as divine flesh and blood), the Trinity (three divine "Persons" in one Being or substance), and the Incarnation (God as man) - though I grant not all Christians accept these interpretations. Jesus employs paradox multiple times in the Gospels, such as, "Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." (Luke 17:33)

Existence itself is mysterious, paradoxical, not completely within our intellectual grasp, try as we might to discover as much as we can. And I think one of the primary functions of religion is to honor and highlight that mystery through ritual.

What are your thoughts? How is paradox expressed in your religious tradition, or other traditions you're aware of?

if one studies the name; so oft mentioned in christianity, or baptizes/immerses themselves in it then one realizes that the outward appearance is not so much prevalent as it's behavior is relevant.

this name can be understood in other belief systems and lead to the same point; which has no referential point to be measured against, contrasted/opposed to. love is a mysterious thing and paradoxical. why would someone endanger their own well being to save another from harm and in so doing harm themselves?

maybe because they are already hurting at the loss of love that binds two seemingly different bodies into one mind, one spirit?


we'll leave a light on for you. like a moth to a flame, love is inevitable

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What are your thoughts? How is paradox expressed in your religious tradition, or other traditions you're aware of?

For me, it generally isn't expressed, IMO.

I don't see anything special about paradoxes. If your understanding of a thing suggests that it's both true and false at the same time, this just means that your understanding isn't good enough to say whether it's actually true.

 

[metis]

We had a paradox sitting on our front lawn twice this week, and they were mallards.

True, btw.

 

[Super Universe]

According to people who are supposed to know, a paradox is, "A seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."
Paradox | Meaning of Paradox by Lexico

For a while now, it has struck me how religion is the ritualization of paradox. Various paradoxes are central to the teachings of a variety of religions. In Zen Buddhism, for example, one meditative technique used by practitioners are koans, which are paradoxical statements, questions, stories, etc. used to open one's mind and awareness to a deeper understanding than may be immediately obvious. Throughout Eastern religions, there is a common thread that understands reality as "non-dual," which itself is a paradoxical insight that perceives the oneness or unity of all things despite their apparent differences and separateness.

Paradox exists in the Abrahamic traditions as well. Christianity, with which I'm most familiar, utilizes a number of paradoxes in its theology, including certain understandings of the Eucharist (bread and wine as divine flesh and blood), the Trinity (three divine "Persons" in one Being or substance), and the Incarnation (God as man) - though I grant not all Christians accept these interpretations. Jesus employs paradox multiple times in the Gospels, such as, "Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." (Luke 17:33)

Existence itself is mysterious, paradoxical, not completely within our intellectual grasp, try as we might to discover as much as we can. And I think one of the primary functions of religion is to honor and highlight that mystery through ritual.

What are your thoughts? How is paradox expressed in your religious tradition, or other traditions you're aware of?

Christian paradoxes come from primitive humans misunderstanding revelation.

The Trinity is this, God created Himself, then He created the Son, then both God and the Son created Spirit. They are not the same being nor are they equal.

The bread and wine were not really the flesh and blood of Christ. It was symbolic, it meant that the Apostles had taken Christ's teaching within themselves.

As for the Incarnation, Jesus was not God. Jesus had to incarnate into a human being so He could have that experience and judge humans. Jesus controls the doorway to heaven.

"Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it," means this: human life is temporary, if you really want to live forever in heaven (meaning you want to save your eternal life) then you will not worry about dying because you accept that this is temporary and not important compared to an eternity in heaven. "...and whoever loses his life will preserve it," means this: whoever loses his life, while living a good life, shall preserve it forever in heaven.

Religion is very much about rituals. God cares not for those things.

If you have any more Christian paradoxes, please post them and I will explain them for you, though you may not like the answers.

 

[Secret Chief]

I think the two truths doctrine expounded especially by Nagarjuna of the Madhyamaka school of Mahayana Buddhism may perhaps be the source of much apparent paradox. The doctrine essentially says that there are two realities: the provisional and the ultimate. So, for example, the Buddha declared that there are Four Noble Truths:

1.Suffering exists

2.There is a source of suffering

3.Relief is possible

4 There is a path to bring this about.

This describes the mundane truth of conditioned existence.

But then, seemingly paradoxically, the Heart Sutra of the Mahayana tradition declares there to be:

No suffering, no source, no relief, no path.

This is the ultimate reality; beyond all words, ideas, concepts and mental attachments (including to the Four Noble Truths).

 

[blü 2]

According to people who are supposed to know, a paradox is, "A seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."

I think Wikipedia's definition is much more helpful:

A paradox [...] is a logically self-contradictory statement or
a statement that runs contrary to one's expectation.​

For a while now, it has struck me how religion is the ritualization of paradox. Various paradoxes are central to the teachings of a variety of religions. In Zen Buddhism, for example, one meditative technique used by practitioners are koans, which are paradoxical statements, questions, stories, etc. used to open one's mind and awareness to a deeper understanding than may be immediately obvious. Throughout Eastern religions, there is a common thread that understands reality as "non-dual," which itself is a paradoxical insight that perceives the oneness or unity of all things despite their apparent differences and separateness.

Please correct me if I'm wrong ─ I take it that in substance you're offering the following propositions as examples of religious 'paradox' ─

"The sound of one hand clapping" is a paradox. [?] (If so, it would be a self-contradiction paradox, in that, strictly defined, clapping requires two hands.)

"The universe is a unity despite its consisting of constituent parts" is a paradox. [?] (I may misunderstand you here, but as I've expressed it, not until you get to a Zeno-like claim that change / movement is impossible do you actually get to a paradox. Otherwise, the idea of the universe is not incompatible with the idea that it has components ─ the same is true of a car or a toaster.)​

Paradox exists in the Abrahamic traditions as well. Christianity, with which I'm most familiar, utilizes a number of paradoxes in its theology, including certain understandings of the Eucharist (bread and wine as divine flesh and blood)

Is this the propositions

"An unaltered wafer and an unaltered wine are literally the body and blood of Jesus" is a paradox [?] (The change occurs only in the mentation of the individual. Arguably it may be a simple error of fact rather than a paradox.)​

"The Trinity [doctrine] (three divine "Persons" in one Being or substance)" is a paradox [?] (Not only is it self-contradictory but by calling it 'a mystery in the strict sense' the churches acknowledge that the notion is incoherent.)

"The Incarnation of God as man" is a paradox [?] (All five versions of Jesus in the NT specifically deny that they're God, and none ever claims to be God. But the real problem is the lack of any sufficient definition of a real God (one with objective existence) such that if we found a suspect we could determine whether it were God or not. That is, the idea of a real God is the paradox).

"Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it" is a paradox [?] While that apparently involves a self-contradiction, it's really a metaphor, no?​

Existence itself is mysterious, paradoxical, not completely within our intellectual grasp

If that means

"Things exist" and /or "I exist" and / or "People exist" are each paradoxes.
​

then I respectfully disagree. The question 'Why is there something instead of nothing?' seems to me not to involve any self-contradiction.

As to the hypothesis of your post, supernatural religious belief is found in just about every culture in the world. That would suggest that it's an evolved trait of H sap sap, or perhaps an artifact of another evolved trait, such as the human instinct for providing instant explanations to unexplained phenomena, a useful survival tool in its own right.

 

[Left Coast]

I think Wikipedia's definition is much more helpful:

A paradox [...] is a logically self-contradictory statement or
a statement that runs contrary to one's expectation.​

Please correct me if I'm wrong ─ I take it that in substance you're offering the following propositions as examples of religious 'paradox' ─

"The sound of one hand clapping" is a paradox. [?] (If so, it would be a self-contradiction paradox, in that, strictly defined, clapping requires two hands.)

"The universe is a unity despite its consisting of constituent parts" is a paradox. [?] (I may misunderstand you here, but as I've expressed it, not until you get to a Zeno-like claim that change / movement is impossible do you actually get to a paradox. Otherwise, the idea of the universe is not incompatible with the idea that it has components ─ the same is true of a car or a toaster.)​

Is this the propositions

"An unaltered wafer and an unaltered wine are literally the body and blood of Jesus" is a paradox [?] (The change occurs only in the mentation of the individual. Arguably it may be a simple error of fact rather than a paradox.)​

"The Trinity [doctrine] (three divine "Persons" in one Being or substance)" is a paradox [?] (Not only is it self-contradictory but by calling it 'a mystery in the strict sense' the churches acknowledge that the notion is incoherent.)

"The Incarnation of God as man" is a paradox [?] (All five versions of Jesus in the NT specifically deny that they're God, and none ever claims to be God. But the real problem is the lack of any sufficient definition of a real God (one with objective existence) such that if we found a suspect we could determine whether it were God or not. That is, the idea of a real God is the paradox).

"Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it" is a paradox [?] While that apparently involves a self-contradiction, it's really a metaphor, no?​

If that means

"Things exist" and /or "I exist" and / or "People exist" are each paradoxes.
​

then I respectfully disagree. The question 'Why is there something instead of nothing?' seems to me not to involve any self-contradiction.

As to the hypothesis of your post, supernatural religious belief is found in just about every culture in the world. That would suggest that it's an evolved trait of H sap sap, or perhaps an artifact of another evolved trait, such as the human instinct for providing instant explanations to unexplained phenomena, a useful survival tool in its own right.

I'm not really interested in going point-by-point back and forth with you here, because I fear that would just become a debate, and my purpose in this thread isn't to debate. If you don't like any of my examples of paradox or apparent paradox, that's fine.

If the definition of paradox that you prefer can be as simple as something that runs contrary to one's expectations, then existence seems chock full of such examples (at, least, in my experience).

Are there any examples of paradoxes that intrigue you? Excite you? Make you ponder when you lay awake at night?

 

[Sunstone]

Words typically have multiple definitions, of course. I prefer the definition of "paradox" that was offered in the OP. Bit of trivia: It seems to be the definition logicians, philosophers, and scholars of comparative religion most often use. But everyone's preferences are for them to decide upon themselves.

 

[blü 2]

I'm not really interested in going point-by-point back and forth with you here, because I fear that would just become a debate, and my purpose in this thread isn't to debate. If you don't like any of my examples of paradox or apparent paradox, that's fine.

I was trying to understand what you were saying by unpacking it. Forgive me if that doesn't accord with your wishes.

If the definition of paradox that you prefer can be as simple as something that runs contrary to one's expectations, then existence seems chock full of such examples (at, least, in my experience).

You'll have noticed that at no point did I further refer to that definition. I simply gave the Wikipedia definition in full. However, the illusion of the Penrose Triangle is an example of that kind.

Are there any examples of paradoxes that intrigue you? Excite you? Make you ponder when you lay awake at night?

Achilles and the Tortoise is the one that had the biggest impact on my thinking about the relationship of time and space. Another way of looking at the same problem is the "Arrow" paradox (here).

 

[Twilight Hue]

According to people who are supposed to know, a paradox is, "A seemingly absurd or contradictory statement or proposition which when investigated may prove to be well founded or true."
Paradox | Meaning of Paradox by Lexico

For a while now, it has struck me how religion is the ritualization of paradox. Various paradoxes are central to the teachings of a variety of religions. In Zen Buddhism, for example, one meditative technique used by practitioners are koans, which are paradoxical statements, questions, stories, etc. used to open one's mind and awareness to a deeper understanding than may be immediately obvious. Throughout Eastern religions, there is a common thread that understands reality as "non-dual," which itself is a paradoxical insight that perceives the oneness or unity of all things despite their apparent differences and separateness.

Paradox exists in the Abrahamic traditions as well. Christianity, with which I'm most familiar, utilizes a number of paradoxes in its theology, including certain understandings of the Eucharist (bread and wine as divine flesh and blood), the Trinity (three divine "Persons" in one Being or substance), and the Incarnation (God as man) - though I grant not all Christians accept these interpretations. Jesus employs paradox multiple times in the Gospels, such as, "Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it." (Luke 17:33)

Existence itself is mysterious, paradoxical, not completely within our intellectual grasp, try as we might to discover as much as we can. And I think one of the primary functions of religion is to honor and highlight that mystery through ritual.

What are your thoughts? How is paradox expressed in your religious tradition, or other traditions you're aware of?

Dogen and Genjo koan will blow your mind!

Brad Warner in his book, Sit Down and Shut Up expanded on The works of Dogen and the paradoxal and contradictory nature of The Genjo Koan, which contributed greatly to understanding how paradox and contradictions work. Also in reading Dogen's Moon in a Dewdrop.

Dare I say I now understand the works of Dogen? Heh heh.... hahahah!!!

 

[Windwalker]

Jiddu Krishnamurti was of the controversial opinion that trying or desiring to attain enlightenment paradoxically hindered or prevented its attainment.

But how was the paradox resolved?

Something along these lines, I believe: Desire -- even the desire for enlightenment -- somehow strengthens normal, day-to-day consciousness. Which works out to be the sort of consciousness that one is trying to get beyond in order to arrive at enlightenment. Now don't quote me on that. That's just the best I can make of it. I could be quite wrong.

That's a pretty good way of understanding that. It reinforces the normal egoic seeking for itself. To tie this into the Christian teaching of "seek and you shall find", that seeking to find, is paradoxically accomplished by "not seeking". In other words, you seek to not seek.

You seek to let go of trying to attain. You seek trying to stop being driven by the ego. You seek to remove the obstacles of the ego in its grasping and clinging. And then you find what was already there and already yours to begin with. In other words, the seeking is to understand how to allow, not to attain.

 

[Hawkins]

Human mind is limited. Truths to them can be seen as paradox. If you ever learned quantum physics, there are a lot of such paradoxes proved to be truths.