Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

[Muffled]

what's the point discussing it if we 'agree'? .. I don't believe a word of it!

I believe that your belief has no basis in reality.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus spoke the truth even when He spoke figuratively.
But, Jesus did not write the Bible. The apostles did. Which we agree it is inspired by God. So, how do we know, when Apostles wrote the New testament through inspiration, the will of God was for them to write in literal language only?

Now, let's see John 16:25, when Jesus said:

"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father"

Now, let's ask ourselves what things Jesus was speaking Figuratively?

We see even from beginning of John 14, is continuation of Jesus speech. So, in all those speeches there are Figures and Metaphors. For example Jesus said:

"Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

Did Jesus mean, He and Father will come to their home literally in a physical form? I don't think so. he was speaking Figuratively.

Then the Disciples were writing Scriptures, wrote similar figures:

"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"" John 20:19




But the Bible talks about return of Elijah as the Person of John. It shows return is not physical. It is spiritual.

The Scriptures of other major religions teach the same:

"I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened..."

"When righteousness is weak and faints, and
unrighteousness exults in pride, then my Spirit
arises on earth. For the salvation of those
who are good, for the destruction of evil in
men, for the fulfillment of the kingdom of
righteousness, I come to this world
from Age to Age."
Bhagavad Gita 4:17

I believe that you mean that Jesus is speaking about true concepts. There is no real Lazarus in Heaven only a made up one to serve the intent of the story.

The way I know anything about scripture: from what it says and with the help of the Paraclete (Holy Spirit).

Jesus never states that He is speaking figuratively in John 14. Yes it is reasonable that Jesus does not come to the believer in physical form but He is not stating that He is. He comes in spiritual form which is already the state of the Father and Paraclete. However it is still a literal coming and Jesus resides in me spiritually. In that sense I am an incarnation of God although He has to share my body with me when I decide to run my own show.

There is no figure stated. They are simply telling what happened.

I hope you are not trying to say that John the Baptist wasn't a pphysical person. Of course I believe it is the case that the spirit of Elijah is the same spirit in John the Baptist.

He makes the claim but I tend to find the evidence less than overwhelming.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I believe that you mean that Jesus is speaking about true concepts. There is no real Lazarus in Heaven only a made up one to serve the intent of the story.

No, I believe there was a Lazarus. Though he was not resurrected physially. He was an unbeliever and sinner in the beginning. Jesus resurrects him, from spiritual death, when He guides him to the right path.

Jesus never states that He is speaking figuratively in John 14.

Yes it is reasonable that Jesus does not come to the believer in physical form but He is not stating that He is. He comes in spiritual form which is already the state of the Father and Paraclete.

And He came to the Disciples in the same way. They are only expressing that spiritual reality, using figurative language.

However it is still a literal coming and Jesus resides in me spiritually. In that sense I am an incarnation of God although He has to share my body with me when I decide to run my own show.

This is what is called spiritual, as opposed to literal.
"Literal" does not signify real or unreal. It only signifies if something happend physically. Spiritual or Metaphors in Bible still means, it happend really, but in a spiritual sense.

I have notices many people think Metaphors is the same as Myth.
No, Metaphors are the expression of spiritual Truths using figurative and symbolic stories. While Myth, is not even real, but can be literal.
For example supperman is a Myth, but its stories are meant literal and physical.
But Jesus resurrection is not a Myth, though it is not literal and physical. It is real, but in a spiritual sense.
The Bible does not contain any Myth. It contains Metaphors!

There is no figure stated. They are simply telling what happened

.


Here is the Problem:

First you said:

"Yes it is reasonable that Jesus does not come to the believer in physical form "

Now, you say, that Jesus physically came to the disciples.

I hope you are not trying to say that John the Baptist wasn't a pphysical person.

No, you can be hopefull here. John was a real person.

Of course I believe it is the case that the spirit of Elijah is the same spirit in John the Baptist.

He had the same spiritual qualities. I hope you don't mean that the same spirit of Elijah physically went to the Body of John.

He makes the claim but I tend to find the evidence less than overwhelming

It would be the same way John was Elijah.

 

[Xchristian]

I believe that your belief has no basis in reality.

I was christian like you one day, now I saw the light.
People don't walk on water to become gods.
Jesus is a lie that the Greeks made up.
Your belief is based on books that nobody respects anymore.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

what's the point discussing it if we 'agree'? .. I don't believe a word of it!

the point is discussing 'interpretation' of the Bible, not its validity.

 

[Xchristian]

the point is discussing 'interpretation' of the Bible, not its validity.

Again, if we agree on its interpretation, what's the point discussing it?
I have seen people who find it impossible for jesus to err.
Did he personally write anything?
It's a man made religion pretty much like all others.
You make the jesus you want and go kill innocent people because they don't agree with you on the jesus you just created.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Again, if we agree on its interpretation, what's the point discussing it?

Everyone has a different interpretation, that's why we discuss!

I have seen people who find it impossible for jesus to err.

What was His error?

Did he personally write anything?

No. I don't think He did.

It's a man made religion pretty much like all others.

You are welcome to have your opinion.

 

[Xchristian]

What was His error?

I will open a thread for this, please wait as I am abroad at the moment.
I will address it to you and get ready for this.

How many major mistakes would you like that jesus committed?
You are free to have a combination of grave, serious, criminal, petty theft, you name it.

 

[Xchristian]

For now, we have plenty of evidence that jesus and 1st century chums believed in reincarnation, give me one good reason not to accept that please.

 

[Muffled]

No, I believe there was a Lazarus. Though he was not resurrected physially. He was an unbeliever and sinner in the beginning. Jesus resurrects him, from spiritual death, when He guides him to the right path.

There is no connection between the living lazarus and the Lazarus in the parable.

And He came to the Disciples in the same way. They are only expressing that spiritual reality, using figurative language.

I see no evidence of this.

This is what is called spiritual, as opposed to literal.
"Literal" does not signify real or unreal. It only signifies if something happend physically. Spiritual or Metaphors in Bible still means, it happend really, but in a spiritual sense.

Literal means what is written as opposed to someone deriving meaning from what is written. It does not mean that something happened physically. Spiritual is not the same as metaphor. Metaphor does not have to signify something real.

I have notices many people think Metaphors is the same as Myth.
No, Metaphors are the expression of spiritual Truths using figurative and symbolic stories. While Myth, is not even real, but can be literal.
For example supperman is a Myth, but its stories are meant literal and physical.
But Jesus resurrection is not a Myth, though it is not literal and physical. It is real, but in a spiritual sense.
The Bible does not contain any Myth. It contains Metaphors!

I believe myth is possibly an accurate account. The whole concept of myth is that there is no way to verify if the accounts are true of not. Superman is not a myth. It is not an historical account but an imaginative story. We actually have evidence of that so it doesn't qualify as myth.

Jesus was resurrected physically. There is no evidence that it was just a spiritual manifestation.


Here is the Problem:
First you said:
"Yes it is reasonable that Jesus does not come to the believer in physical form " Now, you say, that Jesus physically came to the disciples.

Both.

No, you can be hopefull here. John was a real person.



He had the same spiritual qualities. I hope you don't mean that the same spirit of Elijah physically went to the Body of John.

Yes that is exactly what I mean.

It would be the same way John was Elijah.

The spirit changes as it encounters new experiences. The spiritual qualities that Elijah had are not the same that JTB had. Elijah did not get to see God face to face.

 

[Muffled]

I was christian like you one day, now I saw the light.
People don't walk on water to become gods.
Jesus is a lie that the Greeks made up.
Your belief is based on books that nobody respects anymore.

I believe you were never a Christian like me.

I believe one does not enter into darkness and say I see the light. What you mean is that darkness is now your light.

No but I believe God can walk on water because He is all poweful.

I believe your statement is a lie that you made up.

My belief is based on Jesus living in me.

 

[Muffled]

For now, we have plenty of evidence that jesus and 1st century chums believed in reincarnation, give me one good reason not to accept that please.

Jesus knows everything so it isn't amatter of belief but of knowledge. Those who were acquainted with him do not dispaly a belief in re-incarnation that I am aware of.

 

[Xchristian]

The spiritual qualities that Elijah had are not the same that JTB had. Elijah did not get to see God face to face.

I would have directed this criticism at jesus.
He, as a believer in reincarnation misled his disciples,
Leading them to believe that John IS Elijah.
It's a cheap trick really, people have to see some kind of Elijah before the Christ.
Since none came, he had to make up this lie.

Mind, the people around jesus did believe in reincarnation, so can't blame him really, how on earth would they say jesus himself was Elija, John, or just any prophet?

Why.didn't he say people don't become blind due to sins they commit before birth? (Check 4th gospel)

I still have not seen your answer to my question. With all this overwhelming evidence, why don't you admit it? Jesus did believe in reincarnation!!
I would try to find something attributed to him, that simply says, a person can't be another person. If I was you I would try for the learning, knowing in advance that he never said it, it would be againt his religion and surely a development in the 3rd/4th century, long after he perished.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The spirit changes as it encounters new experiences.

There is no biblical reference for this.

The spiritual qualities that Elijah had are not the same that JTB had.

There is no biblical reference for this either.

Elijah did not get to see God face to face.

Simply not true. Elijah according to Bible went to Heaven, and guess who is in Heaven? The Father!

 

[Xchristian]

I believe you were never a Christian like me.

My belief is based on Jesus living in me.

could you do us a favour please?
Ask him for proof thar he didn't believe in reincarnation.
I know for a fact I used to believe in the jesus myth, just like you.
My past, present and future won't benefit this forum members.
Neither wil proving you to be a liar (or not)

So try at least to be useful, you claim to have direct contact with jesus.
I will not ask if Mark ends at 16:8
John's appendix, or even who wrote Hebrews.

Just ask him to show us one line to clear up the John is Elijah saga.
Thanks

 

[InvestigateTruth]

For now, we have plenty of evidence that jesus and 1st century chums believed in reincarnation, give me one good reason not to accept that please.

There might have been some 1st century chums who believed in literal incarnation. That doesn't mean the Bible teaches that. The reason is:

When John the Baptist appeared and gave the glad tidings to people, they asked him, “Who art thou? Art thou the promised Messiah?” He replied, “I am not the Messiah.” Then they asked him, “Art thou Elijah?” He said, “I am not.”


It becomes obvious, if the Authors of Bible intended to say, John was literally the same Elijah, then His reply would have been "Yes, I am"

For example, in Baha'i Scriptures, it is said that God, sent John the Baptist Once again. By this it was meant the Bab, a Prophet who appeared before Baha'u'llah, who gave the glad tidings of the coming of Baha'u'llah. before He came. But by return of Prophets, is meant, the return of the 'same quality' in a new prophet:



"O followers of the Son! We have once again sent John unto you, and He, verily, hath cried out in the wilderness of the Bayán: O peoples of the world! Cleanse your eyes! The Day whereon ye can behold the Promised One and attain unto Him hath drawn nigh! O followers of the Gospel! Prepare the way! The Day of the advent of the Glorious Lord is at hand! Make ready to enter the Kingdom. Thus hath it been ordained by God, He Who causeth the dawn to break." Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of the host.

 

[Xchristian]

There might have been some 1st century chums who believed in literal incarnation. That doesn't mean the Bible teaches that. The reason is:

When John the Baptist appeared and gave the glad tidings to people, they asked him, “Who art thou? Art thou the promised Messiah?” He replied, “I am not the Messiah.” Then they asked him, “Art thou Elijah?” He said, “I am not.”


It becomes obvious, if the Authors of Bible intended to say, John was literally the same Elijah, then His reply would have been "Yes, I am"

Thanks for your reply.
I beg to differ, If the gospel author (I prefer to accuse him as I don't believe the baptist is a historical entity) didn't believe in reincarnation, he would have John say: "what Elijah? I am only 30 years old, never been to the sly before, are we talking reincarnation here?"
He said NO just to deny being Elijah, a prophet or anything else they claimed he was.

Higher TC prefer to think of this, as oppsed to jesus' affirmation that john is Elijah as a by-product or a side effect of the war between the Joanine community, and the new jesus movement which wanted jesus to be top, and went as far as forcing john to deny being anyone of value.
Whereas not only jesus says he is Elijah, he is even the best a woman can bear (i.e. better than jesus!!!) then interpolers inserted a quick degrade from john straight afterwards.

My own theory on this is that it'a not really to do with reincarnation. Even though it proves it beyond any shadow of doubt.

The manufacturers of the christ theory imho had to start the NT where the OT left off, the OT ended saying I will send my prophet Elijah before the christ, good. but we can't find Elijah, let's make one, reincarnate Elijah.
And before people start to love him, let's make him die for a good cause.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks for your reply.
I beg to differ, If the gospel author (I prefer to accuse him as I don't believe the baptist is a historical entity) didn't believe in reincarnation, he would have John say: "what Elijah? I am only 30 years old, never been to the sly before, are we talking reincarnation here?"
He said NO just to deny being Elijah, a prophet or anything else they claimed he was

That's what I'm saying. If the Authors of Bible were making up stories, then why should they even put a story that John denied being Elijah? Then relate that Jesus said John is Elijah?
They could make the story nicer. John said I am Elijah, His spirit inside of Me. Which there is nothing like that.

Higher TC prefer to think of this, as oppsed to jesus' affirmation that john is Elijah as a by-product or a side effect of the war between the Joanine community, and the new jesus movement which wanted jesus to be top, and went as far as forcing john to deny being anyone of value.
Whereas not only jesus says he is Elijah, he is even the best a woman can bear (i.e. better than jesus!!!) then interpolers inserted a quick degrade from john straight afterwards.

My own theory on this is that it'a not really to do with reincarnation. Even though it proves it beyond any shadow of doubt.

The manufacturers of the christ theory imho had to start the NT where the OT left off, the OT ended saying I will send my prophet Elijah before the christ, good. but we can't find Elijah, let's make one, reincarnate Elijah.
And before people start to love him, let's make him die for a good cause.

And if you say it was because OT says Elijah must come, then the Authors of New testament could very well say, that is to be fulfilled in the Second Coming of Jesus. They didn't need to make a story that Elijah returned. So I have to say the theory you r suggesting does not prove the point you are trying to make.

Peace

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

There was a sect of Judaism that believed in it...they're dead now though. Romans killed them all. Ironically the only group to survive the purge by the Romans were the Pharasees...the Sadducees who were built around temple worship died out after the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

I guess it doesn't necessarily make you Holy Men if you survive persecution....

 

[Xchristian]

That's what I'm saying. If the Authors of Bible were making up stories, then why should they even put a story that John denied being Elijah? Then relate that Jesus said John is Elijah?
They could make the story nicer. John said I am Elijah, His spirit inside of Me. Which there is nothing like that.

This is called the criteria of embarrasement, you are right.
John here is denying what jesus says, it's obvious. And embarrasing so why didn't they just jot it out? The answer is, it's not that simple.
We must see, there are other wars and agendas that have to be taken into account.
First, John has to deny himself, otherwise, how do you explain biblical jesus' utter **** behaviour wrt his cousin who testified for him, then when john is standing by the law which jesus is supposed to keep, poor old john is left to face the music all on his own, jesus didn't even shed a tear for his old buddy!
Not a word to the disciples to moan for him!

John had to do that and die (no, not for jesus' sins, but for his wins)
Why didn't they remove it?
Take that for an answer: (John's disciples would claim he died for theirs sins)
Or how about this: (this pericope was too famous, people would say, hey where's that bit about John admitting he's no match for our saviour, those Mandaeans have their voice loud again)

T
And if you say it was because OT says Elijah must come, then the Authors of New testament could very well say, that is to be fulfilled in the Second Coming of Jesus. They didn't need to make a story that Elijah returned. So I have to say the theory you r suggesting does not prove the point you are trying to make.

Peace

I like your style!
Ok, remove verse numbers ... Go back to Mark's gospel from the letter T

ThiaIsTheGospelOfJesusChristAsMentionedInTheProphets...
Then guess what? He is using this very same claim, john was making way for the saviour ...

No second coming, there can't be a first coming withot Elijah, no Elijah? Simples, then No Christ either!
Reas Malachi last words ..
I remind myself always singing it to the eternal Bob Morley song, No woman No Chry.
Don't forget now: No Elijah No Cryst

But there is NO Elijah anyway! Ok let's make any poor sod put on the Elijah kit and eat flies or whatever, and before people love him, kill him