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Reincarnation - Scripture or imagination?

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Muffled, Dec 6, 2012.

  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    I understand the sentiment ... but what often occurs is the creation of a more borders. So instead of having 2 sides insisting they are right, and another attempting to find compromise, what happens is that this compromising side creates another whole different group insisting it is right, and the other two are wrong. So then you have 3 groups, all insisting they are right. In my book, it's called fundamentalism, and in this case, on all 3 sides.

    So personally I think a better strategy is for the original two to just say let's not discuss religion, and have mutual respect for our differences, we don't need a third party to tell us we're both wrong.
     
  2. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    Dear Vinayaka,
    thank you so much for your post. I respect you view and your honesty. It is very important that one has to be faithful to one's understanding.
    My understanding is that truth has no boundaries. Boundaries are man-made. When an astronaut goes up he or she sees only one earth and all the national boundaries are man-made and artificial. If I really wish peace then I cannot remain in my self-enclosed ghetto. I need to have the courage to expose myself, to criticize myself and willing to learn from others and see how these artificial walls can be removed. When I live within a boundary I feel the tension, violence within me. Where there is a boundary there is a potential for conflict, for war. With this inner violence I cannot contribute for peace.If there is peace it is only an artificial peace.Violence can break at any time. The only way I can contribute for peace is to discover the truth that has no boundaries. I only pray that the eternal spirit helps me. Thank you for your dialogue. It has been wonderful to share with you. I appreciate your stimuli. I feel it is better that we do not continue this dialogue because it is not taking us anywhere. Thanks
     
    #302 John Martin, May 10, 2013
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  3. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    Agreed, but I will be obliged to jump in whenever anyone (you're not the only one) misrepresents the tenets of Hinduism. If this discussion was in the Christian DIR, I wouldn't have entered it.
     
  4. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    Dear Vinayaka,
    thanks. Yes, you have every right to intervene if you feel your religion is wrongly interpreted.
     
  5. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Therefore when Jesus was talking about His Own return, how do you know He meant literally?
    And when Jesus said, before Abraham I am, how do you know He meant literally?

    Rather, this whole concept of saying "Return" or "Jesus saying before Abraham I am" must logically mean "All Prophets were and will be continuing and fulfilling God's revelations, and therefore represents each other. Jesus was a New Moses, Moses was a New Abraham, Abraham was a New Noah, and thus, Jesus was also a New Noah, Hence He said "Before Abraham I am"
     
    #305 InvestigateTruth, May 10, 2013
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  6. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    He said "Before Abraham was I am


    To understand Jesus in this way does not do justice Jesus and his message. In order to understand this statement we need to look at the divine revelation to Moses. When Moses asked God his name, first God said 'I am who I am'. It was too difficult for Moses to understand. So God told him, I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This revelation reveals us to aspects of God, the God of eternity and the God of history. 'I am who I am is' the God of eternity; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob represents the same God manifested in the human history, in time and space. The God of history is like the womb of God. There are no two Gods.
    At the moment of Jesus' baptism he transcended the God of history and encountered the God of eternity. He realized a level of consciousness that that transcended time.We can say he discovered the image and likeness of God him.
    This consciousness transcends Abraham and goes even to the beginning of creation.
    Jesus Christ is not the continuity of the prophets from the past either Noah,Elia, Abraham or Moses or any others prophets. He mission was to inaugurate the New Covenant promised by the prophets. It is the revelation of the Law written in the heart, a heart of flesh, an experience in which the whole world is filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

    Jesus Christ is discontinued the God of history and inaugurated the God of eternity, I am who I am. When Jesus said, 'Before Abraham was I am' he was referring to a level of consciousness that transcended time. He was there at the beginning of creation. He was there before all the prophets ever came. To say Jesus was continuing the work of the old prophets does not do justice to his vision and mission.
    Jesus invited everyone to enter into that realm of eternity where every one can say like Jesus' 'before 'Abraham was I am'.
     
    #306 John Martin, May 10, 2013
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  7. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    So according to scriptures, all Men have an Individual Physical Body, and an individual Spirit. Then there is the concept of appearance of the image and attributes of God in a Perfect Man.


    So, in your opinion when Jesus said, before Abraham was I am, He was talking about His individual physical Body, or His individual Spirit, or the Holy Reality of God whose image appeared in Jesus?
     
  8. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    t

    When Jesus said, 'Before Abraham was I am' he was not talking about his individual physical body, he was not speaking his individual spirit but he was speaking of the image and likeness of God, which is universal spirit, in which the (holy) spirit of God was present.

    All people have body,individual soul and universal spirit, which is the image and likeness of God. The individual soul lives in time and space and often identifies with the physical body. Prophetic messages and all moral systems of various religions are meant to guide people who are living at the level of individual soul. The universal spirit, which is the image and likeness of God, is that in which a person is united with the whole of humanity and of creation. In this level a person does not need a scripture, does not need a authority, does not need religions, does not need prophets and sages. This person lives from the inner wisdom and says, 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. and 'Before Abraham was I am'. At the level of the individual soul a person needs external commandments, in the universal spirit a person experiences the New Covenant, the Law written in the heart. Jesus Christ had this experience of New Covenant at his baptism where God did not give him any commandments but revealed who Jesus was,'you are my beloved son'. This self knowledge becomes the way, the truth and the life according to which Jesus had to live his life. 'Our universal spirit is the reality of Adam, before his fall. So Jesus entered into the consciousness of Adam. He went one step further and said, the Father and I are one'. In this experience he was before Adam. So the consciousness of Jesus was not only 'before Abraham was' but also 'before Adam was'. Jesus opened this possibility to every one. The prophets, the scriptures and the religions belong to the level of individual soul and to guide the individual souls. The mission of Jesus was to invite people to the universal spirit and even beyond it.
     
    #308 John Martin, May 10, 2013
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  9. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    If there was no need for a religion or a Prophet, why did God send so many Prophets then?
     
  10. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    Dear Investigate Truth,
    thank you for your question. I shall reply later.
     
  11. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    #311 John Martin, May 11, 2013
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  12. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    I would say, Human beings have certain potential gems in them, which for these gems of inner being to be discovered within, "education" is required.
    There is no better educator than God, for He is the One who created it, and He is the one who trains it. Thus this education must come from the knowledge of God to ensure infallibility.
    Since no man has access to the knowledge of God directly, God has been appointing Divine Prophets among people, who are His Perfect Mirrors, whose knowledge are identical to God, and they reflect the Words and Will of God into world, like a perfect Mirror. Thus they are the best source of this education for training humanity.

    However, these teachings that came through Prophets, tend to get faded and distorted and forgotten and misinterpreted, when the message is passed through generations, therefore once in every while, a New Divine Prophet is appointed to bring back that original teaching, correct the misinterpretations.
    Moreover, as time passes and humanity goes from one Age to another Age, both the level of understanding of humanity, as well as the Problems of the Time changes, thus God will reveal from time to time His new teachings which are in accordance to the exigencies of the time.

    Like, the Prophets before Jesus had prophesied in their Laws that a Messiah must come, and those prophecies were fulfilled in the Person of Jesus.
    Although those Prophecies are subjected to interpretation, and many can argue that those prophecies are not fulfilled by Jesus (should you investigate various views on those prophecies).

    However Jesus, also Prophesied of another One after Himself with these words:
    "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come." John 16:13

    This spirit of Truth, is a Divine Prophet, who is the embodiment of the holy spirit, for the scripture says He has ear to hear and a tongue to speak.

    "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."" Matthew 16:27-28

    In these words, Jesus was talking about another prophet, referring to him as "son of man" and "He". And the reason that the New Prophet is required is because, the Christian Faith and other people have been divided to many denominations, and that truth that previous prophets had given is misinterpreted in many ways, and that truth is divided. Moreover a new Age has come, with its own problems, and therefor a new guidance is required from God. For example how can the whole humanity become united and all wars go away? Obviously these topics would not be solved on human alone, but the guidance of God is required.

    Jesus likewise prophesied of His own return. So, as long as it is related to the Topic of this Thread, do you believe that return is the Physical return of Jesus, or the return of the same spiritual power and quality in a new person?
    How did Elijah returned as John the Baptist?
     
    #312 InvestigateTruth, May 11, 2013
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
  13. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    Thank you for the post. I shall answer later.
    John Martin
     
  14. John Martin

    John Martin Active Member

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    Dear Investigate Truth,
    I do not say I believe or do not believe in the Physical return of Jesus. I do not know. He may come or he may not come. Both believing and not believing are not very useful. As I look back and see what happened to him I presume,if he is wise and has learned a lesson, he will not come back on his own but only if he is forced. If he asks my opinion I will suggest him not to come. The Physical coming of Jesus will not be very helpful rather it will divide humanity further. Do you think people will accept him easily if he comes? Even all the Christians may not accept him, if he teaches something other than what they seem to believe. Hence the physical second coming of Jesus will not be helpful to unite humanity.
    I am comfortable with the idea that the second coming of Jesus is something internal. It is transcending the God of history and entering into the God of eternity. In the God of history first come belief systems or religions, second comes God as understood by that belief system or religion and third come human beings who have to worship God in that particular belief system. Here religion is the way, the truth and the life. The second coming of Jesus means the inauguration of the God of eternity in which first comes God who is greater than religions and human beings, second come human beings who transcend belief systems and third come religions or belief systems which are meant to be at the service of human beings. Here human beings say, 'I am the way, the truth and the life'. It is the birth of a human consciousness which is greater than belief systems. In order this birth of new human consciousness to take place, religions have to become spiritually virgins in the sense of willing to discontinue the God of history and give birth to the God of eternity. It is the celebration of Christmas. It is the second coming of Jesus. Now the second coming of Jesus does not depend on God or on Jesus but depends on religions and human beings if they really want it and willing to cooperate with the plan of God. To desire the Second coming of Jesus is to desire sincerely the unity of mankind. This unity cannot be brought out at the level of religions or by a new religion but only by the birth of a new human consciousness that transcends all religions. The second coming of Jesus breaks down the walls of division and created one God, one creation and one human kind.
     
    #314 John Martin, May 11, 2013
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
  15. Latuwr

    Latuwr Member

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    Hi John Martin,
    Blessings to you through Messiah Yahushua, My YAHWEH and My ELOHIM!
    Shabbat Shalom!
    You wrote:
    "Human beings have the innate capacity to walk spiritually on their own feet."
    I agree. Even so, walking spiritually can be both good and evil just as spirit, itself, can be both good and evil. The Torah is good; therefore, whenever one walks according to the Torah, then their spiritual walk is good. Of course, whenever one walks contrary to the Torah, then their walk is not good. They become thereby transgressors who have engaged in evil. An evil walk results in physical death.
    If all of mankind physically die, then what really is the state of the spiritual innate capacity of man? As the scripture says:
    Psalms 14:3
    3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    I believe that My Messiah Yahushua came to save me from this condition so that I might live and not physically die. Is this something that you yourself have considered?
    Thanking you in advance should you be moved to reply, I am,
    Sincerely, Latuwr
     
  16. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe He has. I believe the visitation by God with Abraham was an unnamed incarnation as a fully grown adult before His incarnation as Jesus.
     
  17. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I'm not sure that there is a direct dicholtomy. I think it is more like a book of math only having addition while another book has addition, subttraction, multiplication and division. Subtraction is not a contradiction of addition and in fact may be implied by it.
     
  18. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Jesus speaks the truth and only speaks metaphorically when He is telling parables.

    This doesn't follow from the premis which also has not been proven as true.

    There are some who think so but Jesus does not lead His people to liberation from the Romans.
     
  19. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Jesus spoke the truth even when He spoke figuratively.
    But, Jesus did not write the Bible. The apostles did. Which we agree it is inspired by God. So, how do we know, when Apostles wrote the New testament through inspiration, the will of God was for them to write in literal language only?

    Now, let's see John 16:25, when Jesus said:

    "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father"

    Now, let's ask ourselves what things Jesus was speaking Figuratively?

    We see even from beginning of John 14, is continuation of Jesus speech. So, in all those speeches there are Figures and Metaphors. For example Jesus said:

    "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them."

    Did Jesus mean, He and Father will come to their home literally in a physical form? I don't think so. he was speaking Figuratively.

    Then the Disciples were writing Scriptures, wrote similar figures:

    "On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"" John 20:19


    But the Bible talks about return of Elijah as the Person of John. It shows return is not physical. It is spiritual.

    The Scriptures of other major religions teach the same:

    "I am not the first Buddha who came upon earth, nor shall I be the last. In due time another Buddha will arise in the world, a Holy One, a supremely enlightened..."

    "When righteousness is weak and faints, and
    unrighteousness exults in pride, then my Spirit
    arises on earth. For the salvation of those
    who are good, for the destruction of evil in
    men, for the fulfillment of the kingdom of
    righteousness, I come to this world
    from Age to Age."
    Bhagavad Gita 4:17
     
  20. Xchristian

    Xchristian Active Member

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    what's the point discussing it if we 'agree'? .. I don't believe a word of it!
     
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