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Regretting sex change

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Since you suddenly care about the regret of trans people, I trust that you care about the regret of trans people who were delayed or denied from being able to transition when they wanted... right?
Suddenly care? Of course I care. I have always cared. If you pay close attention to my posts ( which seems to be a challenge for you lately ) I have never once said anyone should be denied. I haven't even said people should be delayed.

All I have said is there is a deficit in care. There are children who are not being served properly, their long term interests are not being protected. Not all children, but there is a group that are in a higher risk for serious regret. Like "I should never have been allowed to do this to myself" kind of regret.

I have asked a question "why not wait till a child can consent before permitting irreversible body changes?" in order to demonstrate that there is a window of opportunity for certain procedures in order to get the best results with minimal risks. Part of that argument requires pointing out those irreversible changes, one of which is infertility. This is not to delay nor deny treatment, it's only to show that the children that are in theory consenting... are not able to consent at the age when they are making the decision.

I haven't approved of the bans that are being implemented in America. I have requested more specific regulation, not broad guidelines.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

regret​



verb (used with object), re·gret·ted, re·gret·ting.
to feel sorrow or remorse for (an act, fault, disappointment, etc.):He no sooner spoke than he regretted it.
to think of with a sense of loss:to regret one's vanished youth.
noun
a sense of loss, disappointment, dissatisfaction, etc.
a feeling of sorrow or remorse for a fault, act, loss, disappointment, etc.
regrets, a polite, usually formal refusal of an invitation:I sent her my regrets.
a note expressing regret at one's inability to accept an invitation:I have had four acceptances and one regret.

Looks like it fits to me. :shrug:
Equivocation fallacy.

Can you find some testimonials of people who "wish they never had a knee replacement"?

If you can't find people who say they wish they were not allowed to have the surgery, then it's not the same quality and quantity of regret.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Nevertheless. People make choices and then sometimes regret them, later.

So ... what? We stop them from being able to make choices? And then we regret that? It just doesn't work that way. Life is making mistakes, and that involves regret. It's just being human.

I agree that we need to safeguard kids against doing this, as best we can. But even kids have to be abe to make bad choices, and then regret them, to learn what they are.
Yes! We stop children from being able to make choices all the time! We prohibit those choices that have long term consequences to themselves and others until their brains are developed to the point that they can comprehend the long term consequences.

Not all regret is the same. We're not talking about piano lessons. And regretting learning to play as a child. We're talking about serious regret. Regret like... "we just got in a car wreck, my face is through the windshield, why didn't you force me to wear a seatbelt"
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Equivocation fallacy.



If you can't find people who say they wish they were not allowed to have the surgery, then it's not the same quality and quantity of regret.
I disagree. You wanted to split hairs and so we did. The definition(s) of regret include the very words you had highlighted in that post.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Yes! We stop children from being able to make choices all the time! We prohibit those choices that have long term consequences to themselves and others until their brains are developed to the point that they can comprehend the long term consequences.
But they arenlt going to reach that point without making some bad choices, and then experiencing the regret that comes from them. They have to be allowed to control their own actions to learn HOW to control their own actions. Even children.

And other people are not ours to control, period. Not even other people's kids are ours to control. So all this republican obsession with controlling other people's choices is insane. And it will not work the way they think it will because it goes against human nature (and even God's will). Even God Himself does not stop us from sinning, but instead allows us to make our own choices, and then forgives us for them, when we see that we were wrong. So where do these republicans get off thinking they should be in control of all humanity's choices? What stupendous arrogance!
Not all regret is the same. We're not talking about piano lessons. And regretting learning to play as a child. We're talking about serious regret. Regret like... "we just got in a car wreck, my face is through the windshield, why didn't you force me to wear a seatbelt"
None of this is anyone's business. We all have to make our own choices and experience our own regrets. That's God's will. That's the law of human nature.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I disagree. You wanted to split hairs and so we did. The definition(s) of regret include the very words you had highlighted in that post.
I am 99% confident, knowing what you've posted about yourself recently, that you know what I'm talking about, and it's not splitting hairs.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
But they arenlt going to reach that point without making some bad choices, and then experiencing the regret that comes from them. They have to be allowed to control their own actions to learn HOW to control their own actions. Even children.

And other people are not ours to control, period. Not even other people's kids are ours to control. So all this republican obsession with controlling other people's choices is insane. And it will not work the way they think it will because it goes against human nature (and even God's will). Even God Himself does not stop us from sinning, but instead allows us to make our own choices, and then forgives us for them, when we see that we were wrong. So where do these republicans get off thinking they should be in control of all humanity's choices? What stupendous arrogance!

None of this is anyone's business. We all have to make our own choices and experience our own regrets. That's God's will. That's the law of human nature.
This is literally a physiological issue. A child's brain is physically not equipped to comprehend long term consequences.
The front part of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, is remodelled last. The prefrontal cortex is the decision-making part of the brain, responsible for your child’s ability to plan and think about the consequences of actions, solve problems and control impulses. Changes in this part of the brain continue into early adulthood.
Because the prefrontal cortex is still developing, teenagers might rely on a part of the brain called the amygdala to make decisions and solve problems more than adults do. The amygdala is associated with emotions, impulses, aggression and instinctive behaviour.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
The definitions I gave contained the exact wording that you had highlighted with those peoples' regrets about their knee surgeries.

There are varying degrees of regret. I am talking about serious regret. "I wish I wasn't allowed to do this to myself" kind of regret.

And you accuse me of equivocating for some reason that you didn't explain.

See above.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well then, apparently you're just making up your own definition.

First, I find it very difficult to believe that someone with your professional background is denying that there are differing degrees of regret.

Second... Please see attached.

"What Makes for the Most Intense
Regrets? Comparing the Effects of
Several Theoretical Predictors of
Regret Intensity"
 

Attachments

  • fpsyg-07-01941.pdf
    260 KB · Views: 50

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
And you accuse me of equivocating for some reason that you didn't explain.

This is a good article that shows the type of regret for detransitioning. "Devasting" "I ruined my life" "I was betrayed" not "Annoying" and "Frustrating" like the knee surgery regret.

I'll put it in a spoiler to save people from needing to scroll through it if they don't want to read it. It's a long article. It was removed from the original source probably because it calls out the "Doctors "Gaslighting" People Into Belief That Transition Is Answer"

Doctors Have Failed Them, Say Those Who Regret Transitioning ( Part 1 )
Written by Alicia Ault
March 22, 2022

People who had transitioned to the opposite gender and later decided to reverse their transition shared about how they felt the medical establishment had failed them in a unique Zoom conference earlier this month.

The forum was convened by Genspect, a parent-based organization seeking to put the brakes on medical transitions for adolescents and children. The group has doubts about the gender-affirming care model supported by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, and other medical groups.

"Affirmative" medical care is defined as treatment with puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones for those with gender dysphoria to transition to the opposite sex, and is often followed by gender reassignment surgery.

However, there is growing concern among many doctors and other healthcare professionals as to whether this is, in fact, the best way to proceed for those under aged 18, in particular, with several countries pulling back on medical treatment and instead emphasizing psychotherapy first.

The purpose of the second annual Genspect meeting, held March 12 and dubbed #DetransitionAwarenessDay, was to shed light on the experiences of individuals who have detransitioned — those that identified as transgender and transitioned, but then decided to end their medical transition. People logged on from the United States, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the United Kingdom, Germany, Spain, Chile, and Brazil, among other countries.

"This is a minority within a minority," said Genspect advisor Stella O'Malley, adding that the first meeting in 2021 was held because "too many people were dismissing the stories of the detransitioners." O'Malley is a psychotherapist, a clinical advisor to the Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, and a founding member of the International Association of Therapists for Desisters and Detransitioners.

"It's become blindingly obvious over the last year that...'detrans' is a huge part of the trans phenomenon," said O'Malley, adding that detransitioners have been "undermined and dismissed."

Laura Edwards-Leeper, PhD (@DrLauraEL), a prominent gender therapist who has recently expressed concern regarding adequate gatekeeping when treating youth with gender dysphoria, agreed.

She tweeted: "You simply can't call yourself a legit gender provider if you don't believe that detransitioners exist. As part of the informed consent process for transitioning, it is unethical to not discuss this possibility with young people." Edwards-Leeper is professor emeritus in the School of Graduate Psychology at Pacific University in Hillsboro, Oregon.

Speakers in the forum largely offered experiences, not data. They pointed out that there has been little to no study of detransition, but all testified that it was less rare than it has been portrayed by the transgender community.

Struggles With Going Back

"There are so many reasons why people detransition," said Sinead Watson, 30, a Genspect advisor who transitioned from female to male, starting in 2015, and who decided to detransition in 2019.

Citing a study by Lisa Littman, MD, MPH, published last year, Watson said the most common reasons for detransitioning were realizing that gender dysphoria was due to other issues; internal homophobia; and the unbearable nature of transphobia.

Watson said the hardest part of detransitioning was admitting to herself that her transition had been a mistake. "It's embarrassing and you feel ashamed and guilty," she said, adding that it may mean losing friends who now regard you as a "bigot, while you're also dealing with transition regret."

"It's a living hell, especially when none of your therapists or counselors will listen to you," she said. "Detransitioning isn't fun."

Carol (@sourpatches2077) said she knew for a year that her transition had been a mistake.

"The biggest part was I couldn't tell my family," said Carol, who identifies as a lesbian. "I put them through so much. It seems ridiculous to go, 'Oops, I made this huge [expletive] mistake," she said, describing the moment she did tell them as "devastating."

Grace (@hormonehangover) said she remembers finally hitting a moment of "undeniability" some years after transitioning. "I accept it, I've ruined my life, this is wrong," she remembers thinking. "It was devastating, but I couldn't deny it anymore."

So no, I'm not making up my own definition.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Doctors Have Failed Them, Say Those Who Regret Transitioning ( Part 2 )
Written by Alicia Ault

Don't Trust Therapists

People experiencing feelings of unease "need a therapist who will listen to them," said Watson. When she first detransitioned, her therapists treated her badly, she said. "They just didn't want to speak about detransition," she noted, adding that "it was like a kick in the stomach."

Watson said she'd like to see more training about detransition, but also on "preventative techniques," adding that many people transition who should not. "I don't want more detransitioners — I want less," she said.

"In order for that to happen, we need to treat people with gender dysphoria properly," said Watson, saying that the affirmative model is "disgusting, and that's what needs to change."

"I would tell somebody to not go to a therapist," said Carol. Identifying as a butch lesbian, she said she felt like her therapists had pushed her into transitioning to male. "The number one thing not understood by the mental health professionals is that the vast majority of homosexuals were gender-nonconforming children," she said, adding that this is especially true of butch lesbians.

Therapists — and doctors — also need to acknowledge both the trauma of transition and detransition, she said.

Kaiser, where she had transitioned, offered her breast reconstruction. Carol said it felt demeaning. "Like you're Mr Potatohead: 'Here, we can just...put on some new parts and you're good to go,'" she said.

"Doctors are concretizing transient obsessions," said Helena Kerschner (@lacroicsz), quoting a chat room user.

Kerschner gave a presentation on "fandom": becoming obsessed with a movie, book, TV show, musician, or celebrity, spending every waking hour chatting online or writing fan fiction, or attempting to interact with the celebrities online. It's a fantasy-dominated world and "the vast majority" of participants are teenage girls who are "identifying as trans," in part, because they are fed a community-reinforced message that it's better to be a boy, claimed Kerschner.

Therapists and physicians who help them transition "are harming them for life based on something they would have grown out of or overcome without the permanent damage," she added

Doctors "Gaslighting" People Into Belief That Transition Is Answer

A pervasive theme during the webinar was that many people are being misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria, which may not be resolved by medical transition.

Allie, a 22-year-old who stopped taking testosterone after one-and-a-half years, said she initially started the transition to male when she gave up trying to figure out why she could not identify with, or befriend, women, and after a childhood and adolescence spent mostly in the company of boys and being more interested in traditionally male activities.

She endured sexual abuse as a teenager and her parents divorced while she was in high school. Allie also had multiple suicide attempts and many incidents of self-harm, she said. When she decided to transition, at age 18, she went to a private clinic and received cross-sex hormones within a few months of her first and only 30-minute consultation. "There was no explorative therapy," she said, adding that she was never given a formal diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

For the first year, she said she was "over the freaking moon" because she felt like it was the answer. But things started to unravel while she attended university and she attempted suicide attempt at age 20. A social worker at the school identified her symptoms — which had been the same since childhood — as autism. She then decided to cease her transition.

Another detransitioner, Laura Becker, said it took 5 years after her transition to recognize that she had undiagnosed post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) from emotional and psychiatric abuse. Despite a history of substance abuse, self-harm, suicidal ideation, and other mental health issues, she was given testosterone and had a double-mastectomy at age 20. She became fixated on gay men, which devolved into a methamphetamine- and crack-fueled relationship with a man she met on the gay dating platform Grindr.

"No one around me knew any better or knew how to help, including the medical professionals who performed the mastectomy and who casually signed-off and administered my medical transition," she said.

Once she was aware of her PTSD she started to detransition, which itself was traumatic, said Laura.

Limpida, aged 24, said he felt pushed into transitioning after seeking help at a Planned Parenthood clinic. He identified as trans at age 15 and spent years attempting to be a woman socially, but every step made him feel more miserable, he said. When he went to the clinic at age 21 to get estrogen, he said he felt like the staff was dismissive of his mental health concerns — including that he was suicidal, had substance abuse, and was severely depressed. He was told he was the "perfect candidate" for transitioning.

A year later, he said he felt worse. The nurse suggested he seek out surgery. After Limpida researched what was involved, he decided to detransition. He has since received an autism diagnosis.

Robin, also aged 24, said the idea of surgery had helped push him into detransitioning, which began in 2020 after 4 years of estrogen. He said he had always been gender-nonconforming and knew he was gay at an early age. He believes that gender-nonconforming people are "gaslighted" into thinking that transitioning is the answer.

Lack of Evidence-Base, Informed Consent

Michelle Alleva, who stopped identifying as transgender in 2020 but had ceased testosterone 4 years earlier because of side effects, cited what she called a lack of evidence base for the effectiveness and safety of medical transitions.

"You need to have a really, really good evidence base in place if you're going straight to an invasive treatment that is going to cause permanent changes to your body," she said.

Access to medical transition used to involve more "gatekeeping," through mental health evaluations and other interventions, she said, but there has been a shift from treating what was considered a psychiatric issue to essentially affirming an identity.

"This shift was activist-driven, not evidence-based," she emphasized.

Most studies showing satisfaction with transition only involve a few years of follow-up, she said, adding that the longest follow-up study of transition, published in 2011, spanning 30 years, showed that the suicide rate 10-15 years post-surgery was 20 times higher than the general population.

Studies of regret were primarily conducted before the rapid increase in the number of trans-identifying individuals, she said, which makes it hard to draw conclusions about pediatric transition. Getting estimates on this population are difficult because so many who detransition do not tell their clinicians, and many studies have short follow-up times or a high loss to follow-up.

Alleva also took issue with the notion that physicians were offering true informed consent, noting that it's not possible to know if someone is psychologically sound if they haven't had a thorough mental health evaluation, and that there are so many unknowns with medical transition, including that many of the therapies are not approved for the uses being employed.

With regret on the rise, "We need professionals that are prepared for detransitioners," said Alleva. "Some of us have lost trust in health care professionals as a result of our experience," she said.

"It's a huge feeling of institutional betrayal," said Grace.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Well, over processed foods are worse than "junk" and are in the range of being poisons. Circumcision increases the level of sense, it doesn't eradicate any chance of having sensation. But then again, I would not object to adult Progressives requesting full amputations of their own sexual organs as an option to abortion, the killing of the unborn. The more junk food a godless, Marxist, Progressive eats, the sooner they prove Darwin's premise.
Circumcision is useless, needless and it does inflict intense pain and suffering. It makes life start for many men, especially American, with a pathetically absurd and entirely useless and needless shot of cortisone to the brain.
And you're proving my point with the chemicals because of the lack of momentum and movements banning them despite the hazards.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
the longest follow-up study of transition, published in 2011, spanning 30 years, showed that the suicide rate 10-15 years post-surgery was 20 times higher than the general population.

This appears to have come from this: :handpointdown:


Conclusions​
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.​
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Generalizations are always bad. Here, a trans woman, who is now a woman.
Who is proud of being what she has become and she has never regretted bottom surgery...as Playboy photos show

 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
First, I find it very difficult to believe that someone with your professional background is denying that there are differing degrees of regret.

Second... Please see attached.

"What Makes for the Most Intense
Regrets? Comparing the Effects of
Several Theoretical Predictors of
Regret Intensity"
Here's how this conversation went down:

To put this in context, about 6-30% (depending on the study) of knee surgery patients regret or are unsatisfied with their surgery.
Are there any humans anywhere without regrets?
I think it's pretty much this basic.
I don't get why some people having regrets about transitioning...for any reason...is particularly informative about whether people 'should' or 'shouldn't' transition. Some people will have regrets with any decision ever made, ...
dybmh: This isn't just any sort of regret. This isn't knee surgery regret. This is serious.


So this conversation began with regrets or dissatisfaction. I pointed out that the definition for regret contains the exact wording you had highlighted in the article about people who had regrets and/or were dissatisfied with their knee surgery.

You're just declaring here that "knee surgery regret" isn't serious based on what appears to be your personal opinion. Now we're supposed to be arguing about "regret intensity" or something. Of course there can be different degrees of regret, but it's regret and/or dissatisfaction, nonetheless.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Doctors Have Failed Them, Say Those Who Regret Transitioning ( Part 2 )
Written by Alicia Ault

Don't Trust Therapists

People experiencing feelings of unease "need a therapist who will listen to them," said Watson. When she first detransitioned, her therapists treated her badly, she said. "They just didn't want to speak about detransition," she noted, adding that "it was like a kick in the stomach."

Watson said she'd like to see more training about detransition, but also on "preventative techniques," adding that many people transition who should not. "I don't want more detransitioners — I want less," she said.

"In order for that to happen, we need to treat people with gender dysphoria properly," said Watson, saying that the affirmative model is "disgusting, and that's what needs to change."

"I would tell somebody to not go to a therapist," said Carol. Identifying as a butch lesbian, she said she felt like her therapists had pushed her into transitioning to male. "The number one thing not understood by the mental health professionals is that the vast majority of homosexuals were gender-nonconforming children," she said, adding that this is especially true of butch lesbians.

Therapists — and doctors — also need to acknowledge both the trauma of transition and detransition, she said.

Kaiser, where she had transitioned, offered her breast reconstruction. Carol said it felt demeaning. "Like you're Mr Potatohead: 'Here, we can just...put on some new parts and you're good to go,'" she said.

"Doctors are concretizing transient obsessions," said Helena Kerschner (@lacroicsz), quoting a chat room user.

Kerschner gave a presentation on "fandom": becoming obsessed with a movie, book, TV show, musician, or celebrity, spending every waking hour chatting online or writing fan fiction, or attempting to interact with the celebrities online. It's a fantasy-dominated world and "the vast majority" of participants are teenage girls who are "identifying as trans," in part, because they are fed a community-reinforced message that it's better to be a boy, claimed Kerschner.

Therapists and physicians who help them transition "are harming them for life based on something they would have grown out of or overcome without the permanent damage," she added

Doctors "Gaslighting" People Into Belief That Transition Is Answer

A pervasive theme during the webinar was that many people are being misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria, which may not be resolved by medical transition.

Allie, a 22-year-old who stopped taking testosterone after one-and-a-half years, said she initially started the transition to male when she gave up trying to figure out why she could not identify with, or befriend, women, and after a childhood and adolescence spent mostly in the company of boys and being more interested in traditionally male activities.

She endured sexual abuse as a teenager and her parents divorced while she was in high school. Allie also had multiple suicide attempts and many incidents of self-harm, she said. When she decided to transition, at age 18, she went to a private clinic and received cross-sex hormones within a few months of her first and only 30-minute consultation. "There was no explorative therapy," she said, adding that she was never given a formal diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

For the first year, she said she was "over the freaking moon" because she felt like it was the answer. But things started to unravel while she attended university and she attempted suicide attempt at age 20. A social worker at the school identified her symptoms — which had been the same since childhood — as autism. She then decided to cease her transition.

Another detransitioner, Laura Becker, said it took 5 years after her transition to recognize that she had undiagnosed post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) from emotional and psychiatric abuse. Despite a history of substance abuse, self-harm, suicidal ideation, and other mental health issues, she was given testosterone and had a double-mastectomy at age 20. She became fixated on gay men, which devolved into a methamphetamine- and crack-fueled relationship with a man she met on the gay dating platform Grindr.

"No one around me knew any better or knew how to help, including the medical professionals who performed the mastectomy and who casually signed-off and administered my medical transition," she said.

Once she was aware of her PTSD she started to detransition, which itself was traumatic, said Laura.

Limpida, aged 24, said he felt pushed into transitioning after seeking help at a Planned Parenthood clinic. He identified as trans at age 15 and spent years attempting to be a woman socially, but every step made him feel more miserable, he said. When he went to the clinic at age 21 to get estrogen, he said he felt like the staff was dismissive of his mental health concerns — including that he was suicidal, had substance abuse, and was severely depressed. He was told he was the "perfect candidate" for transitioning.

A year later, he said he felt worse. The nurse suggested he seek out surgery. After Limpida researched what was involved, he decided to detransition. He has since received an autism diagnosis.

Robin, also aged 24, said the idea of surgery had helped push him into detransitioning, which began in 2020 after 4 years of estrogen. He said he had always been gender-nonconforming and knew he was gay at an early age. He believes that gender-nonconforming people are "gaslighted" into thinking that transitioning is the answer.

Lack of Evidence-Base, Informed Consent

Michelle Alleva, who stopped identifying as transgender in 2020 but had ceased testosterone 4 years earlier because of side effects, cited what she called a lack of evidence base for the effectiveness and safety of medical transitions.

"You need to have a really, really good evidence base in place if you're going straight to an invasive treatment that is going to cause permanent changes to your body," she said.

Access to medical transition used to involve more "gatekeeping," through mental health evaluations and other interventions, she said, but there has been a shift from treating what was considered a psychiatric issue to essentially affirming an identity.

"This shift was activist-driven, not evidence-based," she emphasized.

Most studies showing satisfaction with transition only involve a few years of follow-up, she said, adding that the longest follow-up study of transition, published in 2011, spanning 30 years, showed that the suicide rate 10-15 years post-surgery was 20 times higher than the general population.

Studies of regret were primarily conducted before the rapid increase in the number of trans-identifying individuals, she said, which makes it hard to draw conclusions about pediatric transition. Getting estimates on this population are difficult because so many who detransition do not tell their clinicians, and many studies have short follow-up times or a high loss to follow-up.

Alleva also took issue with the notion that physicians were offering true informed consent, noting that it's not possible to know if someone is psychologically sound if they haven't had a thorough mental health evaluation, and that there are so many unknowns with medical transition, including that many of the therapies are not approved for the uses being employed.

With regret on the rise, "We need professionals that are prepared for detransitioners," said Alleva. "Some of us have lost trust in health care professionals as a result of our experience," she said.

"It's a huge feeling of institutional betrayal," said Grace.
Some people go to hospital and get staphylococcus. Some people die. Mistakes happen, things don't go as planned. I had a weird something happen under anesthesia once, I was woken up due to severe chest pain and my heart rate and blood pressure spiked to dangerous levels, an effect that lasted for several weeks.
I also would have been "fine" (as in, not really averting or preventing anything) without my last knee surgery.
Psychotropic meds that overall have caused more harm than good (most recent was an long night of intense nausea and vomiting). Effexor especially is note worthy as it kicked me into a hypomanic episode.
My parents not letting me get my shins straightened as a kid, even as a kid I knew I needed that one and not having it has meant an entire life of physical pain for me. Even during my teens I'd hurt so bad I'd wonder if I'd be better off chopping them off.
And we can expand this to include cosmetic surgery. Those don't go well for some people. Amd people who get Violent J's facepaint tattooed on them, some regret that one real quick. But even less dramatic tattoos some people regret them, and in some places still it can have detrimental outcomes for those with them.
People are just suddenly picking on transgender care--while that has largely went ignored before very recent times amd everything else is just ignored--because of the epidemic of partisan rabies with RWers, as per their norm, are kicking a group who is already down and often can't do anything about it.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
They do it, call it circumcision and get angry if you aim the same scrutiny at it.
The chemicals? That's the average American diet and peoplen get mad when you suggest it's junk and shouldn't be eaten.
I am not sure why grown men, who follower Satan, would be taking drugs, other than for recreation, in order to get circumcised. On the contrary, followers of the false prophet Paul, an apparent friend of Satan (2 Cor 12:7), seems to discourage circumcision among his Gentile followers.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You're just declaring here that "knee surgery regret" isn't serious based on what appears to be your personal opinion. Now we're supposed to be arguing about "regret intensity" or something. Of course there can be different degrees of regret, but it's regret and/or dissatisfaction, nonetheless.
"... based on what appears to be your own personal opinion..." is 100% false. And I think you know it.

post#58 - link

In the above post, which you responded to, has direct quotes from the study that started this exchange. It states the most responders benefitted from the surgery. That is NOT my personal opinion. That is in the source brought. Also, I quoted the article showing that what we're talking about it "annoying" "frustrating" and "dissapointing". That is NOT my personal opinion. Then you kept dragging your feet, claiming, "oh, it's the same thing, it's regret, it's still regret". *shrugs* "You're making up your own defintion". Total garbage. The fact that I had dig up something sciency to get you to admit what I've been saying all along, speaks volumes. What have I been saying all along?

This isn't just any sort of regret. This isn't knee surgery regret. This is serious.

"Devastating" "Ruined life" and "Betrayl" is completely different than "Annoying" "Frustrating" and "Dissappointing".

Just pulling up a study where patients are dissappointed in their recovery time shows it is not at all comparable unless we're showing how extremely serious the choice to transition is, and how extremely important it is to get this right.
 
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