Regarding 'Creation Stories'

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

you memorized passages. that is not "thought"

I believe the Bible. Call it whatever you like. Your 'thought' has led you to disbelieve the Bible. So?

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[Audie]

The time frame of the flood was in the days of Noah.

Good-Old-Rebel

Cute. And how many years ago was that?
Less than 100,000? Less than a million?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Or ifn he wiped out all the evidence.

It is kind of a bind; if there were evidenced,that
would prove god. And that creates a problem for
"faith" for lo, in there is proof, there is no faith.

Somehow he would have had to have stepped in an forged a genetic history also. The Noah's Ark Flood would have left a massive and obvious population bottleneck. As I like to say, the fact that you do not have to worry about waking up in a seedy motel bathtub that is full of ice and missing a kidney is "proof" that the flood did not happen.

 

[sooda]

I am not trying to have it both ways. I am saying I believe the testimony of the Bible concerning the flood or creation. You want evidence. Well, keep on looking. After all, has science learned everything yet? Oh...I didn't think so.

You know...Pluto used to be a planet. Science told us so. But...Lo and behold....science has changed its mind. Pluto is no longer a planet. But, don't be to sure. Science may yet change it's mind again.

The time frame of the flood was in the days of Noah.

Good-Old-Rebel

Actually 2900 BC in the Euphrates River Basin.

 

[Audie]

I believe the Bible. Call it whatever you like. Your 'thought' has led you to disbelieve the Bible. So?
Good-Old-Rebel

so lets see you come up with something resembling
a date for your flood.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I am not trying to have it both ways. I am saying I believe the testimony of the Bible concerning the flood or creation. You want evidence. Well, keep on looking. After all, has science learned everything yet? Oh...I didn't think so.

You know...Pluto used to be a planet. Science told us so. But...Lo and behold....science has changed its mind. Pluto is no longer a planet. But, don't be to sure. Science may yet change it's mind again.

The time frame of the flood was in the days of Noah.

Good-Old-Rebel

Oh my, the Pluto argument

Science "knows: enough. Do you doubt gravity? Then you should not doubt other concepts that have even more evidence for them.

By the way, knowledge trumps belief.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Endless evidence tells us that there was no flood. The only conceivable way for that evidence to get there, if there was a flood, was for your God to have falsely planted it in an attempt to deceive. In other words you, by saying that there was a flood, are saying that God planted false evidence. You are calling God a liar.

I didn't say God planted false evidence. You did. Scientist's who disbelieve in the flood usually find the evidence they want.

I believe God in His declaration of the flood as told in the Bible. I am not calling God a liar....you are. Nice try.

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[Audie]

Somehow he would have had to have stepped in an forged a genetic history also. The Noah's Ark Flood would have left a massive and obvious population bottleneck. As I like to say, the fact that you do not have to worry about waking up in a seedy motel bathtub that is full of ice and missing a kidney is "proof" that the flood did not happen.

Kind of more obvious is that there should be some record of
a single extinction event that wiped out 99% of all species.

 

[Goodman John]

The people of the world did have guidance. Adam and Eve would have made known the way of God to their children. And you must remember that Adam lived some 900 years. (Gen. 5:5) Cain had no problem in believing in God. (Gen. 4:9-13) He had a problem in wanting God in his life. Thus you had his people learning the ungodly ways. (Gen. 4:16-24) And it wouldn't be until Seth, the next born, and his people that people started following God. (Gen. 4:26)

That God is a God of love, doesn't take away from His judgement of the flood. That God will send people to hell, doesn't take away that He is a God of love.

Good-Old-Rebel

You're simply reinforcing my point, that apart from having a knowledge of God, the people of the world had no idea what God wanted from them, how he wanted them to behave, or anything beyond knowing and/or acknowledging he existed. There is nothing in the Bible to support that God gave Man any sort of code to live by. Up until after the Flood, the only rule God had was not to eat the fruit of that tree, and that was broken long ago.

As for Adam and Eve, you can bet they'd have told their children about how God treated them, tossing them out of the Garden on their ear for one mistake.

Gen 5:5 - 930 years, but whose counting.

Gen 4:9-13 - Of course Cain believed in God- why would his parents lie to him?

Gen 4:16-24 - I'm not sure where you're going with this, but it has nothing to do with the people learning 'ungodly ways'- there were no 'godly ways' to live, period, as far as they knew.

Gen 4:26 - 'Calling upon the name of the Lord' is all well and good, but it still doesn't address the problem of them not having any rules of the game to work with.

 

[sooda]

No, the Bible says what Christ said. If you don't believe it...oh well.

The Bible declares that Jesus is God the Son. He verified the flood and Noah as literal.

You say the flood was an hideous mass atrocity. The Bible says the atrocity was the reason for the flood.

I have thought it through.

Good-Ole-Rebel

In the original flood story (long before noah) the gods flooded the earth to kill everyone because they were too noisy.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Cute. And how many years ago was that?
Less than 100,000? Less than a million?

I don't know. Does it matter? The point is the flood from God in Noah's day was real.

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[PureX]

Well there are a number of posters on this board who think the OT is history and science.

Yes, and they are in both camps: theists and atheists. But they are willfully or unwittingly ignorant of what artifice (myth) is, how it works, and why we humans engage in it. And in their blinding ignorance, they chase each other around the "stupid tree", endlessly, and to no possible resolution.

Theist or not, these myths have insights to share with us if we are willing to interpret them reasonably, even all these eons later. Because we humans have not changed all that much over time, and we clearly have not advanced much in terms of wisdom. So we should be willing to take all the help we can find, in my opinion.

 

[Audie]

Oh my, the Pluto argument

Science "knows: enough. Do you doubt gravity? Then you should not doubt other concepts that have even more evidence for them.

By the way, knowledge trumps belief.

Yeah, first time I heard the pluto argument was from the
same guy who thinks extra flood water was wafted to
Neptune. Wherein it shineth yet, even unto this day,
as ye warning beacon against the encroachment of ye
incoming Rogue Angels.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

so lets see you come up with something resembling
a date for your flood.

Why? I told you. In the days of Noah.

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[sooda]

Yes, and they are in both camps: theists and atheists. But they are willfully or unwittingly ignorant of what artifice (myth) is, how it works, and why we humans engage in it. And in their blinding ignorance, they chase each other around the "stupid tree", endlessly, and to no possible resolution.

Theist or not, these myths have insights to share with us if we are willing to interpret them reasonably, even all these eons later. Because we humans have not changed all that much over time, and we clearly have not advanced much in terms of wisdom. So we should be willing to take all the help we can find, in my opinion.

I agree that the Bible stories have value but insisting that they are factual drives a lot of people away from faith.

 

[Audie]

I don't know. Does it matter? The point is the flood from God in Noah's day was real.

Good-Old-Rebel

It appears you are trying to evade.
I dont blame you, of course. There is
a trap for you here.

The consequences of thinking things through
and believing your bible could be devastating.

You believe your bible? It details who
begat who etc. You can get a rough estimate
from that.

No more stalling and playing games. Is it less, or
more than a million years ago?

If you cant figure at least that much, you sure
cant figure very much.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You're simply reinforcing my point, that apart from having a knowledge of God, the people of the world had no idea what God wanted from them, how he wanted them to behave, or anything beyond knowing and/or acknowledging he existed. There is nothing in the Bible to support that God gave Man any sort of code to live by. Up until after the Flood, the only rule God had was not to eat the fruit of that tree, and that was broken long ago.

As for Adam and Eve, you can bet they'd have told their children about how God treated them, tossing them out of the Garden on their ear for one mistake.

Gen 5:5 - 930 years, but whose counting.

Gen 4:9-13 - Of course Cain believed in God- why would his parents lie to him?

Gen 4:16-24 - I'm not sure where you're going with this, but it has nothing to do with the people learning 'ungodly ways'- there were no 'godly ways' to live, period, as far as they knew.

Gen 4:26 - 'Calling upon the name of the Lord' is all well and good, but it still doesn't address the problem of them not having any rules of the game to work with.

Not so. I said, Adam and Eve would have passed it down.

The law of not eating the fruit was done away as the garden was no longer allowed entrance. (Gen. 3:24) Man live now by his 'conscience' in knowing good and evil. Which he failed in and thus the flood.

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[PureX]

God doesn't do 'magic'. He does by His own power.

Well, God creating defies human logic. Fancy that. Sort of makes Him God....doesn't it?

Good-Old-Rebel

But even you must be able to see the circularity of the logic, here. I'm not trying to change your mind, or start an argument, I'm simply pointing out the obvious reasons why even many other theists wouldn't agree with your belief choices, and your reasoning behind them. If you need to believe in Divine Magic, (miracles, supernatural feats, whatever we choose to label it) I completely understand and respect both your need and your choice to trust in it. What's a little hard to accept, for me (and others), is the irrational reasoning, ... as opposed to an honest admission of need and personal choice.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It appears you are trying to evade.
I dont blame you, of course. There is
a trap for you here.

The consequences of thinking things through
and believing your bible could be devastating.

You believe your bible? It details who
begat who etc. You can get a rough estimate
from that.

No more stalling and playing games. Is it less, or
more than a million years ago?

If you cant figure at least that much, you sure
cant figure very much.

Oh...a trap. How devious of you. Yet you accuse me of 'playing games'.

Yes, I believe the Bible. It gives the 'begats' as you say. So, if you want to go by the 'begats', then I would say the flood occured less than a million years ago.

Did I pass the quiz?

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

But even you must be able to see the circularity of the logic, here. I'm not trying to change your mind, or start an argument, I'm simply pointing out the obvious reasons why even many other theists wouldn't agree with your belief choices, and your reasoning behind them. If you need to believe in Divine Magic, (miracles, supernatural feats, whatever we choose to label it) I completely understand and respect both your need and your choice to trust in it. What's a little hard to accept, for me (and others), is the irrational reasoning, ... as opposed to an honest admission of need and personal choice.

As I said, God doesn't do magic.

I don't really care what others may think or believe. I do care what God has given us in His Word, the Bible.

Good-Old-Rebel