Regarding 'Creation Stories'

[Audie]

@PureX did not mischaracterise it, so far as I can see. What he said was in line with what I am also telling you. Or, if not in your opinion, how did it differ?

For the 88th of 99th time! He said it the genesis myth
is about human nature.
If you think this...

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

24 And God said, “Let the land prod........

is somehow about human nature, terrif.
I guess it is, if the idea is that it is human
nature to make up stories.*

Bits of "genesis" are at least tangentially related
to human nature, tho if there is something deep
there, it would sure need to be pointed out.

Most of it appears to be just bs made up for unknown
reasons. Surely you do not deny that it was made up?

*an acquaintance who spent time on "the res."
told me of a local myth. The village was moved
to a new location about 1950. Nearby are two hills.

The myth is that a giant was carrying a rock, dropped it
and it broke. Bigger piece made the bigger hill, smaller
made the smaller.

An older lady told him that when they moved there,
her granddaughter asked about where the hills came
from so she made up the story right then.

Now it is "known" by all that it is what actually happened.

 

[Audie]

Have you looked for reasons? Because I have to assume that you have been given any number of them by people who don't share your enthusiasm for 'divine magic'.
Well, one reason might be that doing it in six days defies the logic of the existential system that was created. Why would God use 'magic' to create a universe that doesn't allow it? I'm not saying God couldn't have, I'm just saying it seems incongruous. Some people see these kinds of questions and then need to account for them.

When you are right, you are right. Try for two in a row!

 

[Goodman John]

I visited Toulouse a few years ago and was startled and impressed to find the tomb of St Thomas Aquinas there in the Couvent des Jacobins. I had no idea he was there - but that was before I had read the history. (On that trip we also visited Albi, home to the eponymous heresy and crusade. Hideous church, but interesting history.)

Interesting that Aquinas would be buried there- I would have thought that given his contribution to the faith he'd have been moved to Rome a long time ago. I'll have to read up on that as well. As for my own travels in the region the closest I got to 'Cathar Country' was in the mid-80's, long before I even knew of their existence, and even then I was east of there in Orange, doing a few weeks of cross-training with the French Foreign Legion unit stationed there. Back to Germany afterwards, to my unit in Fulda (where, as an aside, the Cathedral- I believe the oldest in central Germany- holds the tomb of St Boniface).

 

[PureX]

For the 88th of 99th time! He said it the genesis myth
is about human nature.
If you think this...

1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. 10 God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” 21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 22 God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” 23 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day."

... And this from the Tao Te Ching:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.​

What was being created in the Genesis creation story is our conception of "the world" as being made up of light/dark, sky/earth, water/land, life/non-life, and so on. It's not about energy and matter (which the story-makers had no knowledge of), it's about our perception/conception: the beginning of human existential awareness.


Here is creation without the cognitive human overlay ... from the Tao Te Ching:

"Every being in the universe
is an expression of the Tao.
It springs into existence,
unconscious, perfect, free,
takes on a physical body,
lets circumstances complete it.
That is why every being
spontaneously honors the Tao.

The Tao gives birth to all beings,
nourishes them, maintains them,
cares for them, comforts them, protects them,
takes them back to itself,
creating without possessing,
acting without expecting,
guiding without interfering.
That is why love of the Tao
is in the very nature of things."​

The Genesis and the Tao Te Ching texts are both a kind of poetry; written to convey wisdom, and self-awareness, rather than fact.

If you keep on insisting that they were written to convey fact, you will continue to misunderstand the content, and to miss-interpret the intention.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

You are assuming you know what he believed, and that
it somehow makes a difference.

Because what someone believed does not change the
fact that there was no flood.

A sober moment of reflection on your part might be in order.

For lo, what is it for you to believe and spread the word that
the lord your god committed some hideous mass atrocity
that in fact never happened?

You may want to think this thru.

No, the Bible says what Christ said. If you don't believe it...oh well.

The Bible declares that Jesus is God the Son. He verified the flood and Noah as literal.

You say the flood was an hideous mass atrocity. The Bible says the atrocity was the reason for the flood.

I have thought it through.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sooda]

Only by ignoramuses, and bigots (of both the theistic and atheistic camps).

So which one are YOU? As you clearly seem to be insisting that it's not a myth, but a proposal of fact.
The problem for you is that this recognition of the mythical nature of the story blows a giant hole in your argument against it as being absurdly non-factual. And without it, you have no more argument to pose, even though you desperately want to keep posing one.

Well there are a number of posters on this board who think the OT is history and science.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The ice deeply predates any possible time for the flood.

Now, if you want to go with the idea that "god" cleaned up
the mess, and made everything look as if there had been no flood,
go with it.

It is childish magical thinking but, if it suits, it suits.

Just dont make silly claims like thus-

There were many geographical changes brought about upon the earth as a result of the flood.

No geologist with a trace of intellectual honesty will agree with this,
tho a few fundies will. You are better off not saying things about which
you know nothing.

(btw, if there were flood-evidence as you think then it
would be proof of god. there are some heavy
implications to that-including that with proof, there is no
need for faith)

Well, you said that already. How does 'ice' predate any time for the flood?

Not sure what you mean by God making everything as if there were no flood.

There were geographical changes in the earth at that time. The fountains of the deep were opened. (Gen. 7:11) The water expanse in the heavens was let loose. (7:11) The sunlight for the first time was upon the earth without filter. Thus the age of man was decreased. The flood of Noah brought about many changes.

Well, you follow your geologist's, who are still learning. I will follow the Bible, the Word of God.

Concerning the flood the evidence I have given is the Bible. Nothing more. As I have said, I believe it to be so.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Goodman John]

No, the Bible says what Christ said. If you don't believe it...oh well.

The Bible declares that Jesus is God the Son. He verified the flood and Noah as literal.

You say the flood was an hideous mass atrocity. The Bible says the atrocity was the reason for the flood.

I have thought it through.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well now let's look at this Flood thing from a different perspective. For the sake of argument we'll assume the Flood did indeed occur, and we will assume it happened in the fashion recorded in Genesis.

As we are told, the Flood was brought because of the 'wickedness of Man' or some such charge, depending on the Bible one is using. But how could there be 'wickedness' if the people of the world had no guidance as to what God expected of them? Prior to Noah was Adam, and there was no 'set of rules' given to him other than to recognize God, if you will- but no 'thou shalt not do X' sort of Commandments. How were the people supposed to know how to behave?

We can cite the 'Noahide Commandments' but those didn't come until AFTER the Flood, long after everyone but Noah's little party was dead and drowned.

We can cite Abraham as shedding some new light on the God situation, but Abraham came on the scene when Noah was allegedly into his 900's of age- again, AFTER the Flood.

It does bother me that the Flood event is rather like tossing a ball to a group of kids and telling them to play, and then handing out penalties for breaking rules of the game that you never told them about. Not exactly the sort of thing a loving, benevolent God would do to his own children. (I've got my own view on this, but oh it has nothing to do with a loving and benevolent God.)

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

That is just one example of what I meant: talking to simple people, using language and familiar references that they could readily understand. It shows nothing about what He actually knew about Middle Eastern floods.

Well, you can assume all day long on what Christ knew. The testimony of the Bible shows that Jesus Christ knew Noah and the flood were literal people and events.

You don't have to believe it. But that is the testimony of Scripture.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Have you looked for reasons? Because I have to assume that you have been given any number of them by people who don't share your enthusiasm for 'divine magic'.
Well, one reason might be that doing it in six days defies the logic of the existential system that was created. Why would God use 'magic' to create a universe that doesn't allow it? I'm not saying God couldn't have, I'm just saying it seems incongruous. Some people see these kinds of questions and then need to account for them.

God doesn't do 'magic'. He does by His own power.

Well, God creating defies human logic. Fancy that. Sort of makes Him God....doesn't it?

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, you can assume all day long on what Christ knew. The testimony of the Bible shows that Jesus Christ knew Noah and the flood were literal people and events.

You don't have to believe it. But that is the testimony of Scripture.

Good-Ole-Rebel

There is a huge problem with this. You are calling God a liar, though you probably do not realize it.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Well now let's look at this Flood thing from a different perspective. For the sake of argument we'll assume the Flood did indeed occur, and we will assume it happened in the fashion recorded in Genesis.

As we are told, the Flood was brought because of the 'wickedness of Man' or some such charge, depending on the Bible one is using. But how could there be 'wickedness' if the people of the world had no guidance as to what God expected of them? Prior to Noah was Adam, and there was no 'set of rules' given to him other than to recognize God, if you will- but no 'thou shalt not do X' sort of Commandments. How were the people supposed to know how to behave?

We can cite the 'Noahide Commandments' but those didn't come until AFTER the Flood, long after everyone but Noah's little party was dead and drowned.

We can cite Abraham as shedding some new light on the God situation, but Abraham came on the scene when Noah was allegedly into his 900's of age- again, AFTER the Flood.

It does bother me that the Flood event is rather like tossing a ball to a group of kids and telling them to play, and then handing out penalties for breaking rules of the game that you never told them about. Not exactly the sort of thing a loving, benevolent God would do to his own children. (I've got my own view on this, but oh it has nothing to do with a loving and benevolent God.)

The people of the world did have guidance. Adam and Eve would have made known the way of God to their children. And you must remember that Adam lived some 900 years. (Gen. 5:5) Cain had no problem in believing in God. (Gen. 4:9-13) He had a problem in wanting God in his life. Thus you had his people learning the ungodly ways. (Gen. 4:16-24) And it wouldn't be until Seth, the next born, and his people that people started following God. (Gen. 4:26)

That God is a God of love, doesn't take away from His judgement of the flood. That God will send people to hell, doesn't take away that He is a God of love.

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

There is a huge problem with this. You are calling God a liar, though you probably do not realize it.

Well, by all means, explain.

Good-Old-Rebel

 

[Audie]

Well, you said that already. How does 'ice' predate any time for the flood?

Not sure what you mean by God making everything as if there were no flood.

There were geographical changes in the earth at that time. The fountains of the deep were opened. (Gen. 7:11) The water expanse in the heavens was let loose. (7:11) The sunlight for the first time was upon the earth without filter. Thus the age of man was decreased. The flood of Noah brought about many changes.

Well, you follow your geologist's, who are still learning. I will follow the Bible, the Word of God.

Concerning the flood the evidence I have given is the Bible. Nothing more. As I have said, I believe it to be so.

Good-Ole-Rebel

How long ago do you think your flood could have been?

Making everything look as if there had been no flood?
If there is a god, and he did the "flood" there would
be some indication it happened. There is zero physical record
of it. So either it didnt happen, or, "he" cleaned up the mess
sos you cannot tell it happened.
Cant have it both ways.

The bible speaks of these fountains etc, but there is
nothing but the story in the book, no physical trace is
to be found.

As for "learning". Some things have been learned.
They dont need to be done over and over.

But you did touch on a vital difference between religion
and research, between memorizing and believing, and,
going out to actually learn things.

You see to think you know things that you do not know.
You just "believe' it is so.
It is, as I have noted elsewhere, what "believers' do.
They just believe things.

How long ago do you think your flood would have happened?
Let have a time frame.

 

[Audie]

No, the Bible says what Christ said. If you don't believe it...oh well.

The Bible declares that Jesus is God the Son. He verified the flood and Noah as literal.

You say the flood was an hideous mass atrocity. The Bible says the atrocity was the reason for the flood.

I have thought it through.

Good-Ole-Rebel

you memorized passages. that is not "thought"

 

[Audie]

Well there are a number of posters on this board who think the OT is history and science.

So the thing to do is call names.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, by all means, explain.

Good-Old-Rebel

Endless evidence tells us that there was no flood. The only conceivable way for that evidence to get there, if there was a flood, was for your God to have falsely planted it in an attempt to deceive. In other words you, by saying that there was a flood, are saying that God planted false evidence. You are calling God a liar.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So the thing to do is call names.

Ironically that sometimes works better than reason.

 

[Audie]

Endless evidence tells us that there was no flood. The only conceivable way for that evidence to get there, if there was a flood, was for your God to have falsely planted it in an attempt to deceive. In other words you, by saying that there was a flood, are saying that God planted false evidence. You are calling God a liar.

Or ifn he wiped out all the evidence.

It is kind of a bind; if there were evidenced,that
would prove god. And that creates a problem for
"faith" for lo, in there is proof, there is no faith.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

How long ago do you think your flood could have been?

Making everything look as if there had been no flood?
If there is a god, and he did the "flood" there would
be some indication it happened. There is zero physical record
of it. So either it didnt happen, or, "he" cleaned up the mess
sos you cannot tell it happened.
Cant have it both ways.

The bible speaks of these fountains etc, but there is
nothing but the story in the book, no physical trace is
to be found.

As for "learning". Some things have been learned.
They dont need to be done over and over.

But you did touch on a vital difference between religion
and research, between memorizing and believing, and,
going out to actually learn things.

You see to think you know things that you do not know.
You just "believe' it is so.
It is, as I have noted elsewhere, what "believers' do.
They just believe things.

How long ago do you think your flood would have happened?
Let have a time frame.

I am not trying to have it both ways. I am saying I believe the testimony of the Bible concerning the flood or creation. You want evidence. Well, keep on looking. After all, has science learned everything yet? Oh...I didn't think so.

You know...Pluto used to be a planet. Science told us so. But...Lo and behold....science has changed its mind. Pluto is no longer a planet. But, don't be to sure. Science may yet change it's mind again.

The time frame of the flood was in the days of Noah.

Good-Old-Rebel