Refuge for Dropouts from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism in Germany

[Ehav4Ever]

Also @Ehav4Ever,
The industrial revolution is what allows for the feeding, clothing and shelter of millions of Jews, so it strikes me as more than a bit strange to attack it considering that if it was reversed millions of Jews would simply die of starvation.

In my opinion.

Actually Jews knew how to feed, cloth, and shelter before the industrial revolution that started in Europe. You see, there was an industrial revolution that started in the Middle East and parts of Africa way before. It is only a a Western idea that the Western standard of industrialization saved the non-Western world from itself. In many ways the Western standard hurt, and still hurts, various cultures that were perfectly fine before Western colonization.

Also, it is important for you to know that often when Jews were starving in various countries it was because the regimes in power of said countries were starving Jews or blaming Jews for their [said regimes] local problems. Prior to such circumstances Jewish communities were doing very well for themselves. This often gave rise to the whole, "Look how well the Jews are doing over there. The Jews are the source of our problem."

See what I mean about that "we" term. Not everyone may agree with your opinion of how the world works and what actually improves it, or even if it is an improvement, just like someoen can disagree with mine.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

We is human society, and to clarify I am talking about setting minimum standards of education which includes educating children on the consequences of over population, *not* eugenics or other fears that pop up in your mind.

Still sounds like Eugenics at the end of the day because of your starting point. When westeners state the "we" they have historically been talking about themselves and only those who align themselves with the standards that Western elites set in place. I.e. Western nations create a standard, that they often don't really keep, and then try to tell the non-Western world what to do. A good example of this is with the post colonization markets that were created world-wide that benefit Western nations and exclude large swaths of cultures from the "we."

Besides, stating "human society" is not in any way specific. Are you saying that everyone around the world gets to vote on how many kids a family can have and the majority wins? If a minority don't accept the standard of the "we" you are talking about, what are you suggesting that the "human society" you mention do about it?

Again, your claim against Hereidim flies in the face ofthe last +2,000 years of Jewish history where Jews have been having ~6 kids per family and the world was never pushed towards Chaos. For example, I understand in Sydney are you guys have a overpopulation crises/issue/challenge? I haven't seen any link with Hereidi Jews as the source.

This is not a fear of mine, it has been a reality in various periods of history when someone wants to claim that a minority group is somehow messing of the balence of the world. For example:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you don't mind me asking, who is this "we" that you mention that shoud be doing this education you speak of? Given the history of those from western backgrounds who claim freedom on one side and then suppression of freedom on the other side - as a non-western descended person I am always suspicious when a minority population is scape goated as a source of the world's problems.

I think @danieldemol is off-base with his overpopulation concern, but education is important in another way here:

Over and over again around the world, I hear reports of ultra-orthodox Jews whose education is so poor that they end up trapped, unable to leave if they want to. Stories of people whose only education is in reading the Torah, so they end up functionally illiterate in the local language and so lacking in fundamental skills (e.g. basic math) that they're unemployable.

This makes them dependent on the system of donations that provides for their needs, which would be cut off if they were ever to decide to follow some other religious path. Their choice is often either destitution for themselves and their family or going through the motions of a religion they no longer believe in.

... so this ultra-orthodox approach to education ends up being a major barrier to religious freedom.

As for who should provide education, I'm fine with the ultra-orthodox community doing it through their own private schools as long as those schools teach the standard curriculum. Less than this would be an infringement on the rights of the students being taught, which ends up infringing on their rights across the board, including their freedom of religion.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

but education is important in another way here:

Over and over again around the world, I hear reports of ultra-orthodox Jews whose education is so poor that they end up trapped, unable to leave if they want to. Stories of people whose only education is in reading the Torah, so they end up functionally illiterate in the local language and so lacking in fundamental skills (e.g. basic math) that they're unemployable.

Somehow I don't think most of the world is really that concerned with the standards of education present in "certain" ultra-orthodox communities. Especially given that are large number of countries that provide their best education for more affluent areas of their society and lower standards of education for their less affluent arease of their socieities. Besides, a "Western styled education" doesn't guarentee anyone in the world a better situation. That comes from something else. Besides, even in so called free societies there are people who reject the standard of education that is instituted by their local and national governments. Just look at theSovereign citizen movement . A classic example of a people in a free soceity who reject law and basic education for illegal reasons. I.e. in a free society a person can reject said socieity's efforts to educate them in a particular way.

This makes them dependent on the system of donations that provides for their needs, which would be cut off if they were ever to decide to follow some other religious path.

Given that large swaths of the Jewish world has, historically, effectively educated itself even when certain host societies tried to prevent Jewish education, like in some parts of Europe and Ethiopia the choice a particular group to educate themselves differently even than more ancient Jewish societies is a choice that they are free to make and either benefit from or even fail out.

The issue you are describing is not a "religious" one is cultural. I.e. historically speaking Middle Eastern, African, Southern European, and Asian Jewish communities valued education, based on ancient Jewish values. Yet, "some" Jewish communities in Europe were barred from such. Thus, they developed a culture to survive that for better or worse they have not moved adjusted in a Torah based way like other Jewish communities always have.

Their choice is often either destitution for themselves and their family or going through the motions of a religion they no longer believe in.

... so this ultra-lrthodox approach to education ends up being a major barrier to religious freedom.

Having interacted directly with Ultra-Orthodox I can tell you that summary of their community is not correct. First off, the culture that has presented a problem for "some of them" is a culture that developed.....drum roll.....during their time trying to survive in Europe during the time when "certain" European regimes put their communities in circumstances that caused them to develop certain non-religious attitudes.

As for who should provide education, I'm fine with the ultra-orthodox community doing it through their own private schools as long as those schools teach the standard curriculum. Less than this would be an infringement on the rights of the students being taught, which ends up infringing on their rights across the board, including their freedom of religion.

Again, see my above comments. How "certain" ultra-orthodox educate their children is not a "religious" issue. It is a culture they developed during the hard parts of thier exile in Euroope. Some of them are still stuck in how they were treated "historically" in those areas. In any case we Torath Mosheh Jews and Orthodox Jews know how to bring our brothers and sisters to the best place for them. Don't worry, we will take care of it.

 

[stanberger]

Just to be clear, I did not advocate killing anyone.

And their population is growing far beyond the simple need to repopulate the group as would logically be expected from such a high birth rate;

'Israel has the largest Haredi population. While Haredim made up just 9.9% of the Israeli population in 2009, with 750,000 out of 7,552,100; by 2014, that figure had risen to 11.1%, with 910,500 Haredim out of a total Israeli population of 8,183,400. According to a December 2017 study conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute, the number of Haredi Jews in Israel exceeded 1 million in 2017, making up 12% of the population in Israel. In 2019, Haredim reached a population of 1,125,000.[199] By the end of 2020, the population reached 1,175,000,[200] or 12.6% of total population. By 2030, the Haredi Jewish community is projected to make up 16% of the total population, and by 2065, a third of the Israeli population.[149]'

Source: Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia

And yes, it is selfish not to consider the growing strain on the world's resources considering the human population is already big enough.

@Flankerl do they have any plans to discontinue such a ridiculous reproductive rate once the world population reaches a certain size deemed unsupportable? I admit to doubting that.

In my opinion.

 

[stanberger]

I think @danieldemol is off-base with his overpopulation concern, but education is important in another way here:

Over and over again around the world, I hear reports of ultra-orthodox Jews whose education is so poor that they end up trapped, unable to leave if they want to. Stories of people whose only education is in reading the Torah, so they end up functionally illiterate in the local language and so lacking in fundamental skills (e.g. basic math) that they're unemployable.

This makes them dependent on the system of donations that provides for their needs, which would be cut off if they were ever to decide to follow some other religious path. Their choice is often either destitution for themselves and their family or going through the motions of a religion they no longer believe in.

... so this ultra-orthodox approach to education ends up being a major barrier to religious freedom.

As for who should provide education, I'm fine with the ultra-orthodox community doing it through their own private schools as long as those schools teach the standard curriculum. Less than this would be an infringement on the rights of the students being taught, which ends up infringing on their rights across the board, including their freedom of religion.

 

[stanberger]

why would anyone leave a religion that says earth is flat. and that it is not allowed to flush toilets on sabbath ?

 

[rosends]

Over and over again around the world, I hear reports of ultra-orthodox Jews whose education is so poor that they end up trapped, unable to leave if they want to. Stories of people whose only education is in reading the Torah, so they end up functionally illiterate in the local language and so lacking in fundamental skills (e.g. basic math) that they're unemployable.

This makes them dependent on the system of donations that provides for their needs, which would be cut off if they were ever to decide to follow some other religious path. Their choice is often either destitution for themselves and their family or going through the motions of a religion they no longer believe in.

... so this ultra-orthodox approach to education ends up being a major barrier to religious freedom.

As for who should provide education, I'm fine with the ultra-orthodox community doing it through their own private schools as long as those schools teach the standard curriculum. Less than this would be an infringement on the rights of the students being taught, which ends up infringing on their rights across the board, including their freedom of religion.

The question of the educational approach of certain schools is a fair concern. The driving agenda in certain communities is the continuation of a culture steeped in Torah study. We don't work on teaching them in preparation for a path which we would not condone. I do not, though, think I infring on the rights of a student who might end up wanting to be a plumber because my school does not teach plumbing.

The students in some very religious schools are anything but illiterate -- they might be illiterate in ENGLISH but they can read and reason and discuss very effectively. They can do complex math as it applies to topics that re relevant to their culture. The question is one of communal values and the right of any sub-society to endorse and pass on its values to a next generation in the way that it sees as most fit and historically loyal to the values. The notion of "religious freedom" is not the communal ethic so worrying that the schooling is a barrier to it would not bother anyone.

Anyway, deep and valid concerns, and a thread for another day -- be well.

 

[Harel13]

why would anyone leave a religion that says earth is flat. and that it is not allowed to flush toilets on sabbath ?

Do you know of any such religion? I'm not aware of any such religion.

 

[rosends]

why would anyone leave a religion that says earth is flat. and that it is not allowed to flush toilets on sabbath ?

If you assign those to Judaism, then you don't understand what Judaism says or does and would be better suited asking respectful questions than making ridiculous (and incorrect) claims.

 

[stanberger]

The question of the educational approach of certain schools is a fair concern. The driving agenda in certain communities is the continuation of a culture steeped in Torah study. We don't work on teaching them in preparation for a path which we would not condone. I do not, though, think I infring on the rights of a student who might end up wanting to be a plumber because my school does not teach plumbing.

The students in some very religious schools are anything but illiterate -- they might be illiterate in ENGLISH but they can read and reason and discuss very effectively. They can do complex math as it applies to topics that re relevant to their culture. The question is one of communal values and the right of any sub-society to endorse and pass on its values to a next generation in the way that it sees as most fit and historically loyal to the values. The notion of "religious freedom" is not the communal ethic so worrying that the schooling is a barrier to it would not bother anyone.

Anyway, deep and valid concerns, and a thread for another day -- be well.

 

[stanberger]

thats what islam does effectively. pass down its beliefs to the next generation ...its an alternative to evolutionary western values. like gay marriage. murder of babies [abortion]. etc ]

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The question of the educational approach of certain schools is a fair concern. The driving agenda in certain communities is the continuation of a culture steeped in Torah study. We don't work on teaching them in preparation for a path which we would not condone.

And that's the infringement of their rights.

The right of someone to leave their religion and your right to practice your religion are the same right.

I do not, though, think I infring on the rights of a student who might end up wanting to be a plumber because my school does not teach plumbing.

If you're going to tell me that a person's right to follow their conscience on matters of religion is of no more importance than being able to choose a particular profession, what reason can you give me - without being a hypocrite - for me to honour your right to follow your conscience on matters of religion?

The students in some very religious schools are anything but illiterate -- they might be illiterate in ENGLISH but they can read and reason and discuss very effectively. They can do complex math as it applies to topics that re relevant to their culture.

My point was about economic coercion, not about the value of what they're taught.

I'm talking about the same pattern that we often see in cases of domestic abuse: the victim doesn't have the financial means to leave, so they end up staying in an intolerable situation.

Edit: the ultra-orthodox education system produces people who are prime candidates for abuse. Arguing "yeah, but they're also really well-versed in the Torah!" doesn't change this or make it less of a problem.

The question is one of communal values and the right of any sub-society to endorse and pass on its values to a next generation in the way that it sees as most fit and historically loyal to the values. The notion of "religious freedom" is not the communal ethic so worrying that the schooling is a barrier to it would not bother anyone.

Anyway, deep and valid concerns, and a thread for another day -- be well.

I think that's what this thread is about, though. The program in the OP is founded on the notion that the conscience of an individual should be honoured even when it leads them to choose things other than what their community would impose upon them.

The rest is just about the details of how this should get implemented in this particular context.

BTW: if you really do think that a community should have the right to impose its values on its members, how could you possibly justify why a "sub-society" should be exempt from having values imposed on it by the larger society? It seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

IMO, the only rational justification for the rights of a religious community is that the community is an expression of the individual rights of its members... but this means acknowledging those individual rights.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Concerning what I mentioned about education in Western countries:

Innocenti Report Card 15

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Concerning what I mentioned about education in Western countries:

Innocenti Report Card 15

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All the more reason not to deliberately create more educational inequality.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

All the more reason not to deliberately create more educational inequality.

So, the EU, US, etc. will fix their issues and we Jews will get our fellow Jews back to Torath Mosheh culture. Agreed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, the EU, US, etc. will fix their issues and we Jews will get our fellow Jews back to Torath Mosheh culture. Agreed.

Substandard education by ultra-orthodox Jews is an "EU issue" when it happens in the EU, a "US issue" when it happens in the US, a "Canadian issue" when it happens in Canada, etc.

Jewish kids are not second-class citizens. They're entitled to the same rights as any other citizen of their country, including education rights and freedom of religion.

 

[rosends]

The right of someone to leave their religion and your right to practice your religion are the same right.

The right to leave is not a right valued by the community of practitioners. By telling them that they have to value it, you are imposing your values on them. is that your intent? To tell others that they have no right to follow their value system because it doesn't conform to what you think is right?

If you're going to tell me that a person's right to follow their conscience on matters of religion is of no more importance than being able to choose a particular profession, what reason can you give me - without being a hypocrite - for me to honour your right to follow your conscience on matters of religion?

But I don't care if you honor my right to do anything. Unless you are a governmental representative (and my right to practice is conferred or denied by government) or your not honoring me infringes on that governmental right that I do have, then I have no interest in whether you honor what I follow.

My point was about economic coercion, not about the value of what they're taught.

But you tie what is being taught (which is an extension of communal values) with the economic independence which you say is key to leaving.

I'm talking about the same pattern that we often see in cases of domestic abuse: the victim doesn't have the financial means to leave, so they end up staying in an intolerable situation.

So educating people in a way which is of value to the community becomes tantamount to abuse because it doesn't give over the freedom to leave the system? I see that as a stretch.

Edit: the ultra-orthodox education system produces people who are prime candidates for abuse. Arguing "yeah, but they're also really well-versed in the Torah!" doesn't change this or make it less of a problem.

The modern biological system produces children who are prime candidates for abuse. Making a generalization like this is not particularly useful. Saying "they are well versed in something highly prized within the community" doesn't make them victims. In a system which values plumbing, a PhD in Literature has received substandard education.

BTW: if you really do think that a community should have the right to impose its values on its members, how could you possibly justify why a "sub-society" should be exempt from having values imposed on it by the larger society? It seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too.

I only think that the sub-society should be exempt from having certain larger values imposed on it. We have a complex and highly argued area of law about exactly this. During prohibition, sacramental wine was allowed. But animal sacrifice is not. I impose my values on my children all the time. I made them get certain shots, determined their dress code and controlled their diet because, as a responsible parent, and a member of a society which formed me and helped me determine what my values are, those variables became within my administrative purview.

 

[KWED]

If you assign those to Judaism, then you don't understand what Judaism says or does and would be better suited asking respectful questions than making ridiculous (and incorrect) claims.

I wouldn't worry. @stanberger claims to be a Muslim but doesn't seem to have the first idea about Islam either.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Substandard education by ultra-orthodox Jews is an "EU issue" when it happens in the EU, a "US issue" when it happens in the US, a "Canadian issue" when it happens in Canada, etc.

Given that the Ultra-Orthodox in the EU, the US, and Canada are the not the source of the problems of education that already existed in the EU, US, etc. it would appear that this is a scape-goat issue because if said locations solve their already non-Ultra Orthodox education problems in their populace the Ultra-Orthodox would follow suit because they have to follow the law of the land they live in, it is a Torath Mosheh principal. If they don't then you have a "legal" case against them and not a philosophical one. By like token it is not like Ultra-Orthodox Jews have to live in EU, US, etc. countries to begin with.

Jewish kids are not second-class citizens. They're entitled to the same rights as any other citizen of their country, including education rights and freedom of religion.

Maybe you chose you words incorrect here. "Jewish kids" don't have an education problem in the world. Jewish children around the world have historically been educated very well. A small percentage of Ultra-Orthodox Jews in some places in the world have continued on some traditions that they received from being in Europe. If you are concerned about them specifically then change the US, EU, etc. laws so that everyone, without any division, will educated the way you want.

Again, religion has nothing to do with this. If US, EU, etc. governments have allowed education to only go in certain directions historically then they need to fix that for the sake of fixing not because they have decided the Ultra-Orthodox minority are somehow holding back their national/social agendas.