Refuge for Dropouts from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism in Germany

[Debater Slayer]

Yes, how dare people have the number of children they want! My neighbor had 12 and they took up 3 (count 'em, 3) parking spots but that meant that I had to move my car! Jerks.

Three cheers for China and their policy of limiting how many children can be had. I mean, I guess we could just find the people in that group who have so many kids, round them up and kill them. Oh wait...they did that which is why the people feel the need to have children, to repopulate the group.

There can be a balance where a population has enough children to maintain their numbers but not so many as to cause the birth rate to have negative effects on living conditions without any overly encroaching laws like those of China.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I think there are too many factors deciding whether a high birth rate is problematic or not--down to the level of individual families--to entirely dismiss concerns about high birth rates or broadly generalize and label anyone who has a lot of children as "irresponsible," "selfish," etc.

 

[danieldemol]

A group's not repopulating will lead to its dying out. This is pretty basic biology. Sorry you think it is a salad of some sort. It is actually more of a meat and potatoes kind of thing.

I'm not disagreeing against "re-populating", I'm disagreeing against overpopulating, so nice straw man.

That's a fascinating innovation in terms of human rights and responsibilities. Was that in some handbook or is it just what you think of as making sense? Are you saying that these families are putting a strain on a particular resource? Isn't, in a sense EVERYONE on earth putting a strain on resources? Maybe technology is creating access to resources that we didn't have 100 years ago, so the strain you perceive is incorrect. Maybe doctors shouldn't help people heal because more healthy people means more strain, so people who want to stay alive and healthy are being "selfish."

To answer your questions, they (these families) will be once they reach the point of overpopulating.
Yes everyone on earth is putting a degree of strain on resources, which is the whole point of not overpopulating resources.
Yes technology has created access to more resources but we can't count on potential future new technology before they arrive, there is an old proverb dont count your chickens before they hatch.
It is people who want to overpopulate who would force doctors to choose between sick and healthy in such a negative overpopulated future when there is not enough resources for both sick and healthy, hence the need not to let it reach that overpopulated stage.

Well, since you are the one making the judgment and placing yourself at the center of the definition of what is responsible, then, yes, you are proposing exactly that.

No, I'm proposing that society as a whole considers steps necessary to prevent overpopulation, that is democracy, not dictatorship.

So society should advocate some sort of Logan's Run approach. Maybe we can require sterilization of people who have already had a number of children you find to be responsible.

Or we could simply propose that a minimum standard of education is met which includes educating children about the inevitable consequences of overpopulation and let the children decide for themselves whether they wish to overpopulate the earth and face the consequences.

In my opinion.

 

[Flankerl]

I'm not disagreeing against "re-populating", I'm disagreeing against overpopulating, so nice straw man.

You are still obsessing over a group of 0,18% of the world population which still has less members than in 1939.

Why not bring your "worries" to far more numerous groups of people?

 

[danieldemol]

You are still obsessing over a group of 0,18% of the world population which still has less members than in 1939.

Why not bring your "worries" to far more numerous groups of people?

I think we should educate all who would overpopulate the earth, other populations with ridiculous birth rates are just as unwise for not considering the consequences of unfettered birth rates too, just because Haredi are the subject of this thread doesnt mean my criticism is reserved for them alone.

If the Haredi (edit and other groups) plan to stop their growth rates once they reach a certain size no problem with them in particular.

In my opinion.

 

[rosends]

I'm not disagreeing against "re-populating", I'm disagreeing against overpopulating, so nice straw man.

It isn't a straw man. It is a logical extension of your argument, so nice deflection.

It is people who want to overpopulate who would force doctors to choose between sick and healthy in such a negative overpopulated future when there is not enough resources for both sick and healthy, hence the need not to let it reach that overpopulated stage.

No, that's not right. Scientists right now are healing people and developing drugs to lengthen the human life span. No one has a gun to their heads. You should be against all of this technology and medicine because it just encourages selfish people who want to live more.

No, I'm proposing that society as a whole considers steps necessary to prevent overpopulation, that is democracy, not dictatorship.

That may be one of the funniest euphemisms I have heard in a while: "steps necessary to prevent overpopulation." A nice sanitary presentation of population control. Well done.

Or we could simply propose that a minimum standard of education is met which includes educating children about the inevitable consequences of overpopulation and let the children decide for themselves whether they wish to overpopulate the earth and face the consequences.

So the family that wishes to have more children because they love each other and live in a community which is doing just fine needs to be reeducated to come to the conclusion that you think is the only right one.
Great idea. People have children because they don't know stuff.

 

[Debater Slayer]

That may be one of the funniest euphemisms I have heard in a while: "steps necessary to prevent overpopulation." A nice sanitary presentation of population control. Well done.

I don't think support for population control is necessarily the conclusion to draw here. For example, studies have shown that population numbers are relatively stable in multiple developed countries due to factors such as good health care, access to contraceptives, and later marriage:

Information on developed countries

In developed countries like the UK both birth rates and death rates are low.
Birth rates are low because:

• Women's status has improved.
• Contraception and family planning is more readily available.
• Careers are more important than having a family.
• The cost of raising a family has increased.
• People marry later, so there is less opportunity to have large families.
• Increased desire for material possessions, eg cars and holidays instead of children.

Death rates are low because of:

• Advances in modern medicine.
• Vaccinations against diseases, eg measles.
• Improvements in water and sanitation.
• Enhanced food production and storage.
• Better transport for food.
• Lower infant mortality rates.

The population in the developed world is therefore fairly stable and neither rising nor falling significantly.

Information on developed countries - Population, distribution, growth and change - National 5 Geography Revision - BBC Bitesize

Some of the factors contributing to the stable population numbers seem undesirable, such as the increased cost of raising a family. Overall, though, I think there's evidence to suggest that better living conditions and increased awareness of and access to contraceptives indeed contribute to lower birth rates.

 

[rosends]

I don't think support for population control is necessarily the conclusion to draw here. For example, studies have shown that population numbers are relatively stable in multiple developed countries due to factors such as good health care, access to contraceptives, and later marriage:



Information on developed countries - Population, distribution, growth and change - National 5 Geography Revision - BBC Bitesize

Some of the factors contributing to the stable population numbers seem undesirable, such as the increased cost of raising a family. Overall, though, I think there's evidence to suggest that better living conditions and increased awareness of and access to contraceptives indeed contribute to lower birth rates.

Understood -- but the sample being discussed here is being characterized as selfish, not lacking access to suitable living conditions etc. The choice to have children is still a choice that people have and if they can maintain the household that raises and cares for the children, calling their choice selfish seems very wrong to me.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Understood -- but the sample being discussed here is being characterized as selfish, not lacking access to suitable living conditions etc. The choice to have children is still a choice that people have and if they can maintain the household that raises and cares for the children, calling their choice selfish seems very wrong to me.

I disagree with the characterization for the reasons I outlined in this thread.

 

[Harel13]

They are ridiculous because resources are limited, and without any plan to stop them once the limitations of resources are reached obvious problems will occur (ie starvation, displacing of other peoples to house them etc).

In my opinion.

I don't think we are nearing the stage of limited resources. What I think is true is that we, mankind, don't take advantage of all that we could. But we are working towards that.

 

[danieldemol]

I don't think we are nearing the stage of limited resources. What I think is true is that we, mankind, don't take advantage of all that we could. But we are working towards that.

Well I suppose it depends on what you are prepared to sacrifice to squeeze more people in.

I was reading this article on the challenges of providing more housing alone to Israel, and although the complex reasons it went into for why more housing is getting difficult in Israel are probably too lengthy to mention here, the general sentiment of the article could probably be summed up in one paragraph;

'"Everything that we’re are talking about” — including environmental degradation, and massive building plans — “are symptoms,” he said. “We all know that Israel is growing by two percent a year. It’s very difficult to provide over 60,000 housing units annually without harming citizens’ rights, environmental quality, nature, and our quality of life"'

Source: With its population set to double in 30 years, how will Israel cope?

In my opinion.

 

[Harel13]

Well I suppose it depends on what you are prepared to sacrifice to squeeze more people in.

I was reading this article on the challenges of providing more housing alone to Israel, and although the complex reasons it went into for why more housing is getting difficult in Israel are probably to lengthy to mention here, the general sentiment of the article could probably be summed up in one paragraph;

'"Everything that we’re are talking about” — including environmental degradation, and massive building plans — “are symptoms,” he said. “We all know that Israel is growing by two percent a year. It’s very difficult to provide over 60,000 housing units annually without harming citizens’ rights, environmental quality, nature, and our quality of life"'

Source: With its population set to double in 30 years, how will Israel cope?

In my opinion.

The real problem in Israel in terms of housing is that most people still look for houses in coastal and central Israel, though there's plenty of space in the north, south and in Judah and Samaria.

 

[danieldemol]

The real problem in Israel in terms of housing is that most people still look for houses in coastal and central Israel, though there's plenty of space in the north, south and in Judah and Samaria.

Don't they look for housing in those areas because other areas are earthquake prone?

There presumably are factors which cause people to seek out housing in coastal and central Israel.

In my opinion.

 

[Harel13]

Don't they look for housing in those areas because other areas are earthquake prone?

That's certainly not the main thing that Israelis take into consideration when thinking about buying a house.
The main things are because most Israelis prefer to live in the most densely-populated areas. They don't like living far away from the big cities - Jerusalem, Gush Dan, etc. Naturally, this causes housing prices to go up. If more people lived in the other areas I mentioned, big cities would evolve there as well. And then more people would congregate around those areas, and things would be more populated.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I think we should educate all who would overpopulate the earth, other populations with ridiculous birth rates are just as unwise for not considering the consequences of unfettered birth rates too, just because Haredi are the subject of this thread doesnt mean my criticism is reserved for them alone.

If the Haredi (edit and other groups) plan to stop their growth rates once they reach a certain size no problem with them in particular.

In my opinion.

If you don't mind me asking, who is this "we" that you mention that shoud be doing this education you speak of? Given the history of those from western backgrounds who claim freedom on one side and then suppression of freedom on the other side - as a non-western descended person I am always suspicious when a minority population is scape goated as a source of the world's problems.

What you are claiming sounds real similar to Eugenics.

Forced sterilization policies in the US targeted minorities and those with disabilities – and lasted into the 21st century

What was China’s one-child policy and why was it so controversial?

For example, what do you consider the the course of action of the "we" you mention if Hereidim and others refuse to take your advice?

For thousands of years Jews, and certain other cultures in the world, have had a birth rates around ~6 or more children and not once have Jewish populations turned the balence of the world in the direction you are claiming.

If anything Western colonization and Western industrialism have been the source of the modern misuse of resources, pollution, modern warfare, etc.

7 Negative Effects of the Industrial Revolution

Colonialism facts and information.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Watched a documentary about a Jewish community in Dresden, Germany, which functions as a refuge for dropouts from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

https://www.beshtdresden.org/ (select English in the top left corner).

They stated that 13% of all members would leave the Ultra-Orthodox milieu in Israel, including a growing number of young people.

It may be nothing, but the web-site you presented has a couple of really interesting partners listed on their web-site.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The human population of the world is constantly growing.
What ever disasters have happened the trend is constantly upward.
The limit might not be specified,, but it must exist.

 

[danieldemol]

If you don't mind me asking, who is this "we" that you mention that shoud be doing this education you speak of? Given the history of those from western backgrounds who claim freedom on one side and then suppression of freedom on the other side - as a non-western descended person I am always suspicious when a minority population is scape goated as a source of the world's problems.

What you are claiming sounds real similar to Eugenics.

Forced sterilization policies in the US targeted minorities and those with disabilities – and lasted into the 21st century

What was China’s one-child policy and why was it so controversial?

For example, what do you consider the the course of action of the "we" you mention if Hereidim and others refuse to take your advice?

For thousands of years Jews, and certain other cultures in the world, have had a birth rates around ~6 or more children and not once have Jewish populations turned the balence of the world in the direction you are claiming.

If anything Western colonization and Western industrialism have been the source of the modern misuse of resources, pollution, modern warfare, etc.

7 Negative Effects of the Industrial Revolution

Colonialism facts and information.

We is human society, and to clarify I am talking about setting minimum standards of education which includes educating children on the consequences of over population, *not* eugenics or other fears that pop up in your mind.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

Also @Ehav4Ever,
The industrial revolution is what allows for the feeding, clothing and shelter of millions of Jews, so it strikes me as more than a bit strange to attack it considering that if it was reversed millions of Jews would simply die of starvation.

In my opinion.

 

[Flankerl]

It may be nothing, but the web-site you presented has a couple of really interesting partners listed on their web-site.

View attachment 61541

Not really that weird in Germany.
There's no general conversion threat from the Christian churches except the JWs who knock on your door.
The churches have far bigger problems than trying to convert us.

So in general the Christian churches low-key support Jewish stuff due to the Shoah.
Meaning you get lot's of "Abrahamic" understanding events etc.

Just some Reform project doing its Reform thing.

 

[Harel13]

We is human society, and to clarify I am talking about setting minimum standards of education which includes educating children on the consequences of over population, *not* eugenics or other fears that pop up in your mind.

In my opinion.

You know that stating "in my opinion" at the end of such a post undermines the explanation you gave of your view, right? It is Ehav's opinion that you hinted at Eugenics...stalemate, I guess.