Refuge for Dropouts from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism in Germany

[Sirona]

Watched a documentary about a Jewish community in Dresden, Germany, which functions as a refuge for dropouts from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

https://www.beshtdresden.org/ (select English in the top left corner).

They stated that 13% of all members would leave the Ultra-Orthodox milieu in Israel, including a growing number of young people.

 

[danieldemol]

Watched a documentary about a Jewish community in Dresden, Germany, which functions as a refuge for dropouts from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

https://www.beshtdresden.org/ (select English in the top left corner).

They stated that 13% of all members would leave the Ultra-Orthodox milieu in Israel, including a growing number of young people.

Your link appears to be to a website, not a documentary.

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

I watched one of the documentaries on youtube and could not see the 13% figure in it, so I googled it, and found that according to wikipedia, 'The percentage of people leaving the Haredi population has been estimated between 6% and 18%.[203]' 1

I also discovered the average number of children per Haredi woman is 7.2, talk about selfish - how do they expect the world's resources to sustain that kind of population growth?

1 Source: Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia

In my opinion.

 

[Flankerl]

Yeah I am sure 0,18% of the world population are a huge drain on resources.

 

[Sirona]

Your link appears to be to a website, not a documentary.

In my opinion.

Here is the documentary about the community I linked to, for all German language enthusiasts:

.Ultraorthodox? Nein danke!

 

[rosends]

I watched one of the documentaries on youtube and could not see the 13% figure in it, so I googled it, and found that according to wikipedia, 'The percentage of people leaving the Haredi population has been estimated between 6% and 18%.[203]' 1

I also discovered the average number of children per Haredi woman is 7.2, talk about selfish - how do they expect the world's resources to sustain that kind of population growth?

1 Source: Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia

In my opinion.

Yes, how dare people have the number of children they want! My neighbor had 12 and they took up 3 (count 'em, 3) parking spots but that meant that I had to move my car! Jerks.

Three cheers for China and their policy of limiting how many children can be had. I mean, I guess we could just find the people in that group who have so many kids, round them up and kill them. Oh wait...they did that which is why the people feel the need to have children, to repopulate the group.

 

[Rival]

Having lots of children and being a mother is one of life's noblest goals.

Have you ever been in a room with 13 kids and had to supervise all of them?

Yep, selfish alright

Don't worry, I work with small children, so I actually know what I'm talking about.

 

[Harel13]

Watched a documentary about a Jewish community in Dresden, Germany, which functions as a refuge for dropouts from Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

https://www.beshtdresden.org/ (select English in the top left corner).

They stated that 13% of all members would leave the Ultra-Orthodox milieu in Israel, including a growing number of young people.

This is interesting. When I first saw the thread title and post, before clicking on the link, I assumed it was yet another case of a "tell-all" on Ultra Orthodox Judaism where the POV is someone who had left Judaism completely. But this is different. It's people who still want to be involved in Judaism, just looking for a different way than what they grew up with.

 

[danieldemol]

Yes, how dare people have the number of children they want! My neighbor had 12 and they took up 3 (count 'em, 3) parking spots but that meant that I had to move my car! Jerks.

Three cheers for China and their policy of limiting how many children can be had. I mean, I guess we could just find the people in that group who have so many kids, round them up and kill them. Oh wait...they did that which is why the people feel the need to have children, to repopulate the group.

Just to be clear, I did not advocate killing anyone.

And their population is growing far beyond the simple need to repopulate the group as would logically be expected from such a high birth rate;

'Israel has the largest Haredi population. While Haredim made up just 9.9% of the Israeli population in 2009, with 750,000 out of 7,552,100; by 2014, that figure had risen to 11.1%, with 910,500 Haredim out of a total Israeli population of 8,183,400. According to a December 2017 study conducted by the Israeli Democracy Institute, the number of Haredi Jews in Israel exceeded 1 million in 2017, making up 12% of the population in Israel. In 2019, Haredim reached a population of 1,125,000.[199] By the end of 2020, the population reached 1,175,000,[200] or 12.6% of total population. By 2030, the Haredi Jewish community is projected to make up 16% of the total population, and by 2065, a third of the Israeli population.[149]'

Source: Haredi Judaism - Wikipedia

And yes, it is selfish not to consider the growing strain on the world's resources considering the human population is already big enough.

@Flankerl do they have any plans to discontinue such a ridiculous reproductive rate once the world population reaches a certain size deemed unsupportable? I admit to doubting that.

In my opinion.

 

[Harel13]

And their population is growing far beyond the simple need to repopulate the group as would logically be expected from such a high birth rate

The group @rosends was talking about was the Jewish People as a whole. Today there are still less Jews in the world than there were before the Holocaust, so I don't understand your point.

And yes, it is selfish not to consider the growing strain on the world's resources considering the human population is already big enough.

As @Flankerl pointed out, your latching on to the Israeli Ultra Orthodox is strange, considering that Jews make a small percentage of the world and the IUO an even smaller group. I understand that you were pointing this out in the context of the thread, but nonetheless, it is a strange point to make. There are population groups that never faced genocide and now number many millions more people than Israeli Ultra Orthodox. Guess what? In 60 years, the percentages, as projected on Wikipedia, will likely still be in favor of those other groups.

 

[danieldemol]

The group @rosends was talking about was the Jewish People as a whole. Today there are still less Jews in the world than there were before the Holocaust, so I don't understand your point.

As @Flankerl pointed out, your latching on to the Israeli Ultra Orthodox is strange, considering that Jews make a small percentage of the world and the IUO an even smaller group. I understand that you were pointing this out in the context of the thread, but nonetheless, it is a strange point to make. There are population groups that never faced genocide and now number many millions more people than Israeli Ultra Orthodox. Guess what? In 60 years, the percentages, as projected on Wikipedia, will likely still be in favor of those other groups.

So I put the question to you that I put to Flankerl, do they have any plan to stop such a ridiculous birth rate once the total population reaches an acceptable size?
If you see some reason why the Jewish population as a whole needs to restock to pre-genocide numbers then you can tailor the question to do they have any plans to change their ridiculous birth rate once pre-genocide numbers are reached?

As I said to Flankerl I admit to doubting that.

In my opinion

 

[danieldemol]

By the way @Harel13 just to clarify, other populations with ridiculous birth rates are selfish for not considering the consequences of unfettered birth rates too, just because Haredi are the subject of this thread doesnt mean my criticism is reserved for them alone.

In my opinion

 

[Harel13]

So I put the question to you that I put to Flankerl, do they have any plan to stop such a ridiculous birth rate once the total population reaches an acceptable size?

I don't understand why you consider the birthrate ridiculous, considering the actual numbers when compared to the global population. Or are you merely talking about the population of Israel within the confines of The State of Israel?

If you see some reason why the Jewish population as a whole needs to restock to pre-genocide numbers then you can tailor the question to do they have any plans to change their ridiculous birth rate once pre-genocide numbers are reached?

Like I said, you have yet to explain why the numbers are ridiculous. Simply stating they are so doesn't actually make them so.

 

[Harel13]

By the way @Harel13 just to clarify, other populations with ridiculous birth rates are selfish for not considering the consequences of unfettered birth rates too, just because Haredi are the subject of this thread doesnt mean my criticism is reserved for them alone.

In my opinion

Oh, good to know.

I don't have any global population plans, but in terms of Israel, more urban development is certainly needed. I heard the Japanese are dying out (literally, I'm not being sarcastic. Check population statistics, they're in a negative free fall). Maybe one day some of the Chinese could move there.

 

[rosends]

Just to be clear, I did not advocate killing anyone.

No, attrition will take care of that -- you just don't condone building a population.

And their population is growing far beyond the simple need to repopulate the group as would logically be expected from such a high birth rate;

No it isn't, nor is the simplistic notion of "once they get to the levels of pre-1936 they can stop" because groups have the right to grow. Unless you don't think they do.

And yes, it is selfish not to consider the growing strain on the world's resources considering the human population is already big enough.

So you can advocate that no one has any children anymore. Or you can decide (I guess) how many each person is allowed to have. I will tell all my friends to check with you before they try to build large families full of love because you might not approve. They might say that your imposing your vision of what others should do in terms of having a family is a bit arrogant and self-centered but I'll be sure to tell them that you have done the number crunching and they need to listen to your appraisal of the situation. Because, you know...you.

But hey, calling them selfish is just opinion, and everyone has one of those. Most aren't worthy of note, though.

 

[danieldemol]

I don't understand why you consider the birthrate ridiculous, considering the actual numbers when compared to the global population. Or are you merely talking about the population of Israel within the confines of The State of Israel?

Like I said, you have yet to explain why the numbers are ridiculous. Simply stating they are so doesn't actually make them so.

They are ridiculous because resources are limited, and without any plan to stop them once the limitations of resources are reached obvious problems will occur (ie starvation, displacing of other peoples to house them etc).

In my opinion.

 

[danieldemol]

No, attrition will take care of that...

This part of your sentence looks like word salad. Applying pressure on people to change (which is one of the things unfettered population growth leads to) will not necessarily lead to killing depending on how it is done.

No it isn't, nor is the simplistic notion of "once they get to the levels of pre-1936 they can stop" because groups have the right to grow. Unless you don't think they do.

They have a right to grow up to the point where they are placing strain upon resources, and a responsibility not to grow beyond that.

So you can advocate that no one has any children anymore. Or you can decide (I guess) how many each person is allowed to have. I will tell all my friends to check with you before they try to build large families full of love because you might not approve. They might say that your imposing your vision of what others should do in terms of having a family is a bit arrogant and self-centered but I'll be sure to tell them that you have done the number crunching and they need to listen to your appraisal of the situation. Because, you know...you.

Sure I as an individual can't decide that for everyone, but since I was not proposing that either Israeli or global society be run by dictatorship of me that is a non-sequitur.

But society should consider that, and as per usual it makes more sense to have some degree of foresight than wait till people are dying of starvation or getting displaced etc to start planning for these problems.

But hey, calling them selfish is just opinion, and everyone has one of those. Most aren't worthy of note, though.

Not all opinions are equally well thought out

In my opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

Having lots of children and being a mother is one of life's noblest goals.

With over-population wrecking the natural world,
having lots'o children is a really bad goal. And
eventually humans will reach limits.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Having lots of children and being a mother is one of life's noblest goals.

Have you ever been in a room with 13 kids and had to supervise all of them?

Yep, selfish alright

Don't worry, I work with small children, so I actually know what I'm talking about.

Whether it's noble or selfish seems to me entirely dependent on why a given family chooses to do it, the conditions in which they raise their children, and their awareness of the demonstrably negative impact of high birthrates in certain countries, among other things.

High fertility rates can have an adverse effect on the health of women and children, especially in developing countries that lack a health infrastructure. Every year, an estimated 529 000 women die in pregnancy or childbirth (WHO, 2004), and for every woman who dies as many as 30 others suffer chronic illness or disability (Ashford 2002). Moreover, every year more than 46 million women resort to an induced abortion; 18 million do so in unsafe circumstances. Each year, approximately 68 000 women die from unsafe abortions and tens of thousands more suffer serious complications leading to chronic infection, pain and infertility (WHO, 2005).

Fertility Rate - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

I have seen people with several children who treated them badly and knew they couldn't sustain their basic needs but had more children anyway. When someone wants to get a pet, most reasonable people agree they should make sure they're able to support the pet before getting one. I believe this responsibility is even greater with having children, let alone several.

That said, it seems to me that each population's and even each family's circumstances may be different from others, so broadly judging any family that has a lot of children isn't helpful. Sometimes a high birth rate is necessary to maintain a population in the long term or, in the case of some poorer families, to even survive and ensure they earn enough livelihood. I would focus on why they felt the need to do so and the problematic living conditions that spurred such a need instead of judging the families as unethical or irresponsible.

I think judging anyone negatively for having a lot of children is often pointless and unhelpful, but so is entirely dismissing the fact that high birth rates can be quite problematic in some cases. There are too many factors involved in the impact of birth rates for me to believe a broad brush could address them all accurately or fairly.

 

[rosends]

This part of your sentence looks like word salad. Applying pressure on people to change (which is one of the things unfettered population growth leads to) will not necessarily lead to killing depending on how it is done.

A group's not repopulating will lead to its dying out. This is pretty basic biology. Sorry you think it is a salad of some sort. It is actually more of a meat and potatoes kind of thing.

They have a right to grow up to the point where they are placing strain upon resources, and a responsibility not to grow beyond that.

That's a fascinating innovation in terms of human rights and responsibilities. Was that in some handbook or is it just what you think of as making sense? Are you saying that these families are putting a strain on a particular resource? Isn't, in a sense EVERYONE on earth putting a strain on resources? Maybe technology is creating access to resources that we didn't have 100 years ago, so the strain you perceive is incorrect. Maybe doctors shouldn't help people heal because more healthy people means more strain, so people who want to stay alive and healthy are being "selfish."

Sure I as an individual can't decide that for everyone, but since I was not proposing that either Israeli or global society be run by dictatorship of me that is a non-sequitur.

Well, since you are the one making the judgment and placing yourself at the center of the definition of what is responsible, then, yes, you are proposing exactly that.

But society should consider that, and as per usual it makes more sense to have some degree of foresight than wait till people are dying of starvation or getting displaced etc to start planning for these problems.

So society should advocate some sort of Logan's Run approach. Maybe we can require sterilization of people who have already had a number of children you find to be responsible.

Not all opinions are equally well thought out

Yes, clearly.