Quran has the best guidance about war and peace.

[Link]

So @Link, what are your thoughts about unfalsifiable claims made during a discussion? Are they ok? Should they be avoided? Other opinion?

They should not be made unless you provide proof. The proof does not have to be within the post, as long as you've shown it somewhere, it's fine. Or point to the sources that provide proof if it was not you.

 

[Link]

So there are three premises to your argument:

1. P1: That there is a universally valid teaching about conflict.
2. P2: This valid teaching is that B.
3. P3: The Quran contains this valid teaching
4. C: Therefore the Quran contains the universally valid teaching about conflict.

But what if...I don't accept premise 1? What if I say that there isn't one universally valid normative position towards war? What if I don't accept premise 2, more importantly? What if, qua Nietzsche in his infamous "The Greek State", war is...good? Universally? This is a very unsettling premise that inverts our ordinary understanding of war, but it isn't self-evidently wrong in Nietzsche's conception of the question. What if the heroic virtue produced due to the condition of war ought to be normative? I think you ought to illustrate to the others that P1 and P2 are proper premises that ought to obtain their support.

There is two birds one stone approach. To show the Quran is the best teaching in regards to war and peace, p1 and p2 and p3 would be implied if I show that.

Also, Quran's approach to war and peace is that it teaches it very dynamically with a situation and many different situations. The situation thus has to be assessed and also who leads such things is very important.

If it fails in any of the situations to show best approach, then it fails in guidance. Also, again, leadership is a key issue to all this.

 

[icehorse]

They should not be made unless you provide proof. The proof does not have to be within the post, as long as you've shown it somewhere, it's fine. Or point to the sources that provide proof if it was not you.

I think you didn't really respond to @ChristineM earlier. No matter how you interpret the Quran, you're making unfalsifiable claims. The Quran, like other scripture, is often ambiguous. So one group of scholars have one interpretation, and a different group has a different interpretation. As we can see looking at 1400 years of EVIDENCE, disagreeing about how to interpret the Quran often leads to bloody mayhem.

 

[Link]

I think you didn't really respond to @ChristineM earlier. No matter how you interpret the Quran, you're making unfalsifiable claims.

This thread is a response to that. I will be providing evidence and people can quote Quran and provide claims that Quran is does not contain the best teaching towards peace and war.

Also, my interpretation of the text can be debated, so all of this is falsifiable. But to me, Quran is a CLEAR guidance and is EXALTED in how talks about war and peace.

There is no text like it in this regard, but my claim is simple, it contains the best teachings in this regard.

 

[Bird123]

Salam

هُوَ اللَّهُ الَّذِي لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا هُوَ الْمَلِكُ الْقُدُّوسُ السَّلَامُ الْمُؤْمِنُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ الْعَزِيزُ الْجَبَّارُ الْمُتَكَبِّرُ ۚ سُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ | He is Allah—there is no god except Him—the Sovereign/King, the All-holy, the All-Peace, the Securer, the All-conserver, the All-mighty, the All-compeller, and the All-magnanimous. Clear is Allah of any partners that they may ascribe [to Him]! | Al-Hashr : 23


Another way to translate it:

He is God, there is no God but Him, the Holy King, The Peace, The Securer, the Preserver/Guardian, The Honorable/Mighty, The Compeller, the Magnified, Glorified is God from what they associate.

So we see God the Holy King. Why would he take Authority, it's because he is the Peace, and such seeks to secure it in the land, and preserves his creation and is mighty, the next title is is definitely linked to Islam with the title, "The Compeller". @Bird123 Always is saying God is not forcing people to views, would not do that, lets them decide, but we see wisdom here of God being the True king, because he needs to secure his creation from harming each other, and creating chaos on earth that cannot be repaired. And such he compels them to obey him and take him as the holy King and true King, as a means of acquiring inner peace, but also religion wise, collectively, wants them as a community, coming together, to secure the land from havoc of evil humans and Jinn. This is the only way he can preserve human honor and dignity and hence does not want us all doing decisions and learning from it. He wants peace on earth, not to learn by causing havoc, that we did things wrong.

All security and peace, is due to his forces repelling evil forces.


وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لَا تُفْسِدُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ قَالُوا إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ | When they are told, ‘Do not cause havoc in the earth,’ they say, ‘We are only reformers/setters aright/peace makers!’ | Al-Baqara : 11
أَلَا إِنَّهُمْ هُمُ الْمُفْسِدُونَ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ | Behold! They are themselves the agents of havoc, but they do not perceive. | Al-Baqara : 12
وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ آمِنُوا كَمَا آمَنَ النَّاسُ قَالُوا أَنُؤْمِنُ كَمَا آمَنَ السُّفَهَاءُ ۗ أَلَا إِنَّهُمْ هُمُ السُّفَهَاءُ وَلَٰكِنْ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ | And when they are told, ‘Believe like the people who have believed,’ they say, ‘Shall we believe like the fools who have believed?’ Behold! They are themselves the fools, but they do not know. | Al-Baqara : 13

فَهَزَمُوهُمْ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَقَتَلَ دَاوُودُ جَالُوتَ وَآتَاهُ اللَّهُ الْمُلْكَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَهُ مِمَّا يَشَاءُ ۗ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُمْ بِبَعْضٍ لَفَسَدَتِ الْأَرْضُ وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ ذُو فَضْلٍ عَلَى الْعَالَمِينَ | Thus they routed them with Allah’s will, and David killed Goliath, and Allah gave him kingdom and wisdom and taught him whatever He liked. Were it not for Allah’s repelling the people, some of them by some, the earth would surely have been corrupted/in a state of havoc; but Allah is gracious to the worlds | Al-Baqara : 251

الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُوا مِنْ دِيَارِهِمْ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلَّا أَنْ يَقُولُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ ۗ وَلَوْلَا دَفْعُ اللَّهِ النَّاسَ بَعْضَهُمْ بِبَعْضٍ لَهُدِّمَتْ صَوَامِعُ وَبِيَعٌ وَصَلَوَاتٌ وَمَسَاجِدُ يُذْكَرُ فِيهَا اسْمُ اللَّهِ كَثِيرًا ۗ وَلَيَنْصُرَنَّ اللَّهُ مَنْ يَنْصُرُهُ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَقَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ | —those who were expelled from their homes unjustly, only because they said, ‘Allah is our Lord.’ Were it not for Allah’s repelling the people, some of them by some; ruin would have befallen the monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques in which Allah’s Name is much remembered. Allah will surely help those who help Him. Indeed Allah is all-strong, all-mighty. | Al-Hajj : 40

الَّذِينَ إِنْ مَكَّنَّاهُمْ فِي الْأَرْضِ أَقَامُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتَوُا الزَّكَاةَ وَأَمَرُوا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَنَهَوْا عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ ۗ وَلِلَّهِ عَاقِبَةُ الْأُمُورِ | Those who, if We granted them power in the land, will maintain the prayer, give the zakat, bid what is right and forbid what is wrong. And with Allah rests the outcome of all matters. | Al-Hajj : 41

وَالَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَاءُ بَعْضٍ ۚ إِلَّا تَفْعَلُوهُ تَكُنْ فِتْنَةٌ فِي الْأَرْضِ وَفَسَادٌ كَبِيرٌ | As for the faithless, some of them are awlya of others (of them). Unless you do it, there will be strife in the land and great havoc. | Al-Anfaal : 73


لَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلَنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ وَأَنْزَلْنَا مَعَهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْمِيزَانَ لِيَقُومَ النَّاسُ بِالْقِسْطِ ۖ وَأَنْزَلْنَا الْحَدِيدَ فِيهِ بَأْسٌ شَدِيدٌ وَمَنَافِعُ لِلنَّاسِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّهُ مَنْ يَنْصُرُهُ وَرُسُلَهُ بِالْغَيْبِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَوِيٌّ عَزِيزٌ | Certainly We sent Our apostles with manifest proofs, and We sent down with them the Book and the Balance, so that mankind may maintain justice; and We sent down iron, in which there is great might and uses for mankind, and so that Allah may know those who help Him and His apostles by the Unseen/Hidden. Indeed Allah is all-strong, all-mighty. | Al-Hadid : 25


@Bird123 this is one of many reasons but probably the most important that God appoints leaders among us and sends revelations and Messengers and revealed books/scripture. Without it, justice is not possible and also chaos and havoc would reach a level that is not tolerable on earth.


He is God, there is no God but Him, the Holy King, The Peace, The Securer, the Preserver, The Honorable/Mighty, The Compeller, the Magnified, Glorified is God from what they associate. (The verse from Quran)

Is better than God leaves us to decide just to learn a lesson, no intervention, will let us pick worse kings on earth and worse leaders instead of taking this role as holy king.

What is the lesson? That we are horrible at recognizing the truthful leaders from liars? And follow havoc makers and blood-shedders on earth rather then leaders of peace and guides to enlightenment? That we cannot recognize good friends of God from the evil deceivers?

How you greatly Underestimate God. You really have no clue, do you? You have been corrupted by mankind's ruling and controlling. They use God's name to gain followers. Ask yourself: Is this really God? Is a Being capable of creating universes really having control problems?

Mankind's goal is to have it made, ruling and controlling. Mankind, lacking knowledge assumes this is God's goal as well. Nothing is further from the Truth!!

God's goal is the education of God's children. When times are good, people just sit back and enjoy the ride. When adversity hits, people have to Think, Study, Analyze, Plan, Learn and Grow along the journey to resolution. Don't you Understand? There will never be Peace until all the Lessons are Learned!!!!

Might will not win the day. Hate, Anger, Vengeance, Revenge, Blame, Judging, Condemning, Wrath, Punishment, Coercing, Intimidating, Controlling, Ruling and etc. will not win in the end!!!

People tend to take adversity personally. In time, learning becomes impossible. This is the reason for Death. Death is no more than a Change. After death, each will go to God to Experience God's Unconditional Love. It is a Love that feels so good and so complete it heals all hurt. God's shows us it has never ever been about punishment or hate.

The dynamics of this world and God's system are amazing. I could never count all the variables much less keep up with them. God keeps up with it all. Those you interact with and that are around you are there for a reason. Even science is starting to Discover that there is order even in chaos.

So much more knowledge lives beyond the surface. The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that. I work on mine everyday.

God is High Intelligence. We are ants. One is going to have to stretch one's Intelligence to the limit and beyond toward Understanding. God hides nothing. It is all staring us in the face.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

How you greatly Underestimate God. You really have no clue, do you? You have been corrupted by mankind's ruling and controlling. They use God's name to gain followers. Ask yourself: Is this really God? Is a Being capable of creating universes really having control problems?

Mankind's goal is to have it made, ruling and controlling.

God is not going to watch and do nothing and in reality is the True holy King. But you and your people can try him, as it is upon him to deliver believers from their oppressors at the times of peril.

How many nations have been destroyed when they tried him with respect to believers and some drowned, others earthquakes, others 9 consecutive days took them of harsh winds, etc.

I believe he will bring the Mahdi, Jesus, Enoch, Khidr, Elyas and others we do not know about, and they been saved for a reason.

Without God intervening, there is no hope for oppressed. He is our hope, he and his Wali appointed on earth, "...and the oppressed say oh God grant from you a Wali and grant from you a Helper".

Believers never made it in their own, and we can not now, and will need God to bring about his champion king at the moments of peril.

 

[PruePhillip]

Salam

The statement: What Quran says about war and peace, is as good as it gets. There maybe other books out there in China or else where, about war and peace philosophies, that say the best thing possible as well. So the claim is not that only Quran says these things, but that what it says about war and peace is the best.

.

Islam was started by an Arab warlord. It appropriated by Jewish and Christian texts to form Islam.
Islam is steeped in violence, to this day. No other religion, Sufi, Christian, Hindu, Buddhism etc comes close to the sheer VIOLENCE of Islam.

 

[icehorse]

This thread is a response to that. I will be providing evidence and people can quote Quran and provide claims that Quran is does not contain the best teaching towards peace and war.

Also, my interpretation of the text can be debated, so all of this is falsifiable. But to me, Quran is a CLEAR guidance and is EXALTED in how talks about war and peace.

There is no text like it in this regard, but my claim is simple, it contains the best teachings in this regard.

Will you be providing evidence that doesn't boil down to your opinion or someone else's opinion? In other words will you be providing evidence based on actions that have been taken based on guidance from the book? If so, and that would be very interesting, you'd also have to show that the actions you cite are statistically the actions most commonly taken across many situations over many centuries.

 

[Tiberius]

@Tiberius I am not going to pay to read this but it may or may not interest you as well.

Read what? Who's said anything about paying? What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Link]

Read what? Who's said anything about paying? What in the world are you talking about?

The thread. Long time ago I referred you to a book about this but you said your time is precious and I would have to pay you to read it. I do not think you were serious, anyways, I am joking about that moment.

 

[Link]

Will you be providing evidence that doesn't boil down to your opinion or someone else's opinion? In other words will you be providing evidence based on actions that have been taken based on guidance from the book? If so, and that would be very interesting, you'd also have to show that the actions you cite are statistically the actions most commonly taken across many situations over many centuries.

By who, by Imams (a)? They are the only ones who are guaranteed to not conflict with the book.

 

[icehorse]

By who, by Imams (a)? They are the only ones who are guaranteed to not conflict with the book.

Not exactly my point, but to respond to your question - as you know, Imams often disagree with each other.

 

[Shaul]

I would submit two things to dispute the assertion. One is the Pact of Omar which shows both a double standard and is contrary to peace. The second is the historical record which shows that the Quran supports slavery and that Muslims have spread slavery into many lands they subjugate.

 

[Tiberius]

The thread. Long time ago I referred you to a book about this but you said your time is precious and I would have to pay you to read it. I do not think you were serious, anyways, I am joking about that moment.

Okay, and what does that event have to do with this thread?

 

[Link]

Okay, and what does that event have to do with this thread?

It's about the same subject (the book I referred you to).

 

[Tiberius]

It's about the same subject (the book I referred you to).

Well, you might want to go into more detail, because I don't remember any details about that conversation and I'm not going to go back and try to find it just so I can make sense of this thread.

 

[firedragon]

They still interpreted the Qur'an in a way that made their heinous actions valid.

No they didn't. You are wrong. I mean so blind by hatred so ignorance is given.

 

[firedragon]

As we can see looking at 1400 years of EVIDENCE, disagreeing about how to interpret the Quran often leads to bloody mayhem.

Can you give examples where this misinterpretation resulted in "bloody mayhem"?

1400 right? So there must be 100s of examples. Can you give 15?

 

[firedragon]

The second is the historical record which shows that the Quran supports slavery and that Muslims have spread slavery into many lands they subjugate.

How could history show what a text supports? That's superimposition isn't it?

Do you understand how the Qur'an is interpreted?

 

[icehorse]

Can you give examples where this misinterpretation resulted in "bloody mayhem"?

1400 right? So there must be 100s of examples. Can you give 15?

I know, I know, you're just asking questions in good faith