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Featured Quran, Harry Potter, and Lord of the rings. Same?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by firedragon, Jan 22, 2021.

  1. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    A statement that happens to be very accurate.
     
  2. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    What do you understand by the Quran saying Qawmihee which means "my people" to "his people" repeatedly? You dont have to believe the Quran, but just understand what its saying. All the messengers prior to Muhammed were sent to a particular people, not the whole world. So was Noah. And it repeatedly says that he was sent to his people, and the whole episode, everything, every time is for his people alone. It keeps repeating "Hum", to "them" and them alone. When it refers to the people it says "Qawmunooh". people of Noah. Repeatedly. It does not refer to the whole world.

    Only a person who has never ever studied this simple episode in the Quran would ever speak like this. Its fine to have not studied it, but to make certain statements, you have to study it.

    When I say "cherry pick" I mean "dont pick one verse in the Quran to make a whole thesis about something". Its the definition of cherry picking.
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Another one.
     
  4. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Now are you trying to find archeological evidence to the flood?

    1. The verse doesn't say "mount".
    2. What are evidences that one would find to confirm this?
    3. How will evidence of that nature last?
    4. What expeditions have been done to identify these evidences to have "not found" any?
    5. Have you read the Yusuf Ali commentary? Just read it since you are quoting him at least.

    Its interesting to hear you say these things.
     
  5. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Assume that you are well read, the who you are addressing here has not, and provide your case. Then, it would be a good discussion.
     
  6. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    In context of people being created in pairs and having descended from that pair, Noah's people are all the worlds people according to my reading in my opinion.

    The Quran doesn't seem to indicate that other Messengers where going to their people at the same time as Noah was going to His people in my opinion.

    Thus it is perfectly valid in my opinion to highlight that the verse refers 71:26 refers explicitly to not leaving a single unbeliever on earth.

    In fact in my opinion even if the Quran disagreed with it elsewhere this would only prove evident contradiction as 71:26 is quite explicit about not leaving a single unbeliever.
     
  7. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Not least because a fair bit of it can be mapped onto Christian teaching. For instance, Harry has to 'die' (and briefly go to 'Kings Cross station') before he can be free of his childhood 'evil' element.
    If I recall aright, Mitochondrial Eve lived thousands of years distant from Y-chromosome Adam.

    And talking snakes don't help. And the Tigris and Euphrates (not to mention the Pishon and the Gihon) don't have a common source. And in the light of the modern theory of evolution, massively supported by evidence, the idea that all animal species including humans were each specially created by magic isn't a great boost to cred. And so on.

    As for Noah, if there had been a real Genesis Flood, then it would have occurred at a time when human technology could build substantial rafts, which puts it pretty much in the last 10,000 years; and if there had been such a flood, then the evidence for it would be everywhere, all day and every day. Instead we find nothing. That nothing includes things that MUST be there if the story is true. For instance
    ─ a single geological flood layer all over all continents, islands and the sea floor;
    ─ a genetic bottleneck in every species of land animal, all the bottlenecks dating to the same date in the last 10,000 years; and
    ─ an extra billion cubic miles of water, which is what you'd need to cover the top of Mt Everest 20 feet deep.

    And that's just the start.
     
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  8. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    According to Yusuf Ali it does. Yusuf Ali puts words in brackets that are not part of the text according to my understanding.
    A flood sediment on Mount Judi would be an interesting find provided it wasn't right at the foot of the mountain. Mind you it should be date-able to approx 4,000 years ago.
    I would have to consult with @Subduction Zone on that one, but I believe that the absence of global flood sediment from that timeframe is considered proof that Noah's flood never happened on a global scale, so I see no particular reason it wouldn't similarly disprove Noah's flood on a local scale.
    Considering how underdeveloped science is in the Arab world probably none - which says a lot in my opinion.
    Do you have a specific point you want me to read or are you just sending me looking for a needle in a haystack?
     
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  9. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    There is endless evidence that there was no global flood. The fact that ice floats refutes it. Scientists can and have dated the icecaps on Greenland and Antarctica. They have been there a heck of a lot longer than 4,000 years.

    And then there is one of my favorite ones, just because it drives flood advocates nuts. Hopefully we all know that stories of people waking up in a hotel bathtub filled with ice is an urban legend. The reason that it is an urban legend also refutes the flood myth.
     
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  10. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    Do you think it is reasonable that if Noah's ark came to rest on Mount Judi there would be a flood sediment on it?
     
  11. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    There would be a worldwide layer of flood deposits. That is not to be found. It could be missing from a place or two due to erosion, but there would still be endless sites all with a layer of flood deposit with the same date. That is not observed.

    The fact that ice floats is a rather simple one that most people can understand which is why I like to use it. The icecaps of Antarctica and Greenland would have floated away and would have been destroyed by the flood. The Antarctic ice cap has existed for at least 3 million years. Longer than man as homo sapiens has been on this planet:

    Polar Ice Caps | Encyclopedia.com
     
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  12. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your opinion.
     
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  13. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    This is referring to the Quran, not the tanakh
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.

    1. What is mount Judi?
    2. Why 4,000 years?

    No worries. I shall await.

    Thanks for your opinion.

    Just read the commentary. Its not that long. If you dont want to its not a problem. If you read one persons translation and bank on it, it is only a path to read the the same guys commentary on the same verse you are quoting. I am not sending you anywhere.
     
  15. danieldemol

    danieldemol Well-Known Member
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    1. This is Mount Judi Mount Judi - Wikipedia

    2. Approximately 4,000 years because it does not contradict the Biblical narrative concerning the timing of Noah's flood, so unless you believe the Jews who recorded Noah as having lived about 4,000 years ago were lying on that too, it would make sense to look for flood sediment around that time frame.

    Alternatively if you want to divorce Noah from His Biblical context entirely for reasons of post hoc rationalisation you are probably still looking for a sediment within the last 10,000 years for the reason outlined by @blü 2 in post #87. In other words finding sediments from millions of years before Mount Judi formed wouldn't cut it.

    I assume you are referring to commentary note #5724 which states;
    'Yusuf Ali Translation Note Number : 5724
    The Flood was sent in order to purge all sin. The prayer of Noah is not vindictive. It simply means, "Cut off all the roots of sin". See next note.'
    Source: Surah 71. Nuh Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Noted.

    Does the Qur'an say the Flood covered all the earth?

    If so, points one and two apply.

    Does the Qur'an say the Flood covered the tops of the highest mountains?

    If so, point three also applies.
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Quran says it was for the people of nooh. It was not noted as a global flood.

    It does not say it covered the mountain tops.
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    How do you know it’s mount Judi?

    No. The Quran does not say anything about 4000 plus years.
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Thanks.

    Where in modern terms did the people of Nooh live? There would necessarily be geological evidence of it there.
     
  20. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    That blu 2, I have no clue.
     
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