Quran, Harry Potter, and Lord of the rings. Same?

[blü 2]

That blu 2, I have no clue.

I apologize for being slow off the mark ─ of course Nooh is Noah.

The original tale of the Flood is from Sumer, a former part of Mesopotamia, and dates to the third millennium BCE. Its Noah figure was Ziasudra ('Life of Distant Days'). Sumerian is an isolate language, but the language of the neighboring Akkadians was Semitic, and having learnt the story by about 2000 BCE, called the Noah figure Uta-Napishti ("I Found Life"). The story passed from the Akkadians to their Semitic neighbors in Babylon and had its present form (as part of 'The Epic of Gilgamesh') by about 1800 BCE.

The Noah's Flood story in the Tanakh (early 1st millennium BCE) closely follows the Babylonian tale. (There were cultural bonds between Semitic Mesopotamia and Semitic Canaan. Abraham, you'll recall, was said to be from Mesopotamia.)

So it seems a reasonable guess that some local flood on the Tigris or Euphrates may have inspired the original tale ─ perhaps some Sumerian farmer saved his family and some cattle on a raft.

 

[danieldemol]

How do you know it’s mount Judi?

It is probably just traditionally ascribed to Mount Judi, as such I don't *know* it is Mount Judi, but I think that when we study history, what we are often studying rather than certain knowledge is what are the possibilities and probablities.

From Mount Judi - Wikipedia it states, "The Syrians of the east Tigris had a legend of the ark resting on the Djûdi mountain in the land of Kard. This legend may in origin have been independent of the Genesis account of Noah's flood, rooted in the more general Near Eastern flood legends, but following Christianization of the Syrians, from about the 2nd century AD, it became associated with the Mountains of Ararat where Noah landed according to Genesis, and from Syria also this legend also spread to the Armenians. The Armenians did not traditionally associate Noah's landing site with Mount Ararat, known natively as Masis, but until the 11th century continued to associate Noah's ark with Mount Judi.[6]" In my opinion it is reasonable that Muhammad may have met Syrians, and as such looking at it from the perspective of probability and possibility, it is most likely where Muhammad got the tradition from.

I suppose if you can demonstrate that Muhammad would have been familiar with other places known as Al Judi to the Arabs of Muhammad's lifetime for completeness we would want to consider those sites as well, but I'm guessing that you don't have a pre-prepared list.

No. The Quran does not say anything about 4000 plus years.

In my opinion neither does it refute 4000+ years or propose an alternative for it, and I would suggest that divorcing the Quran from it's historical context (which includes pre-existing Noah's traditions in circulation amongst the Arabs of Muhammad's lifetime) for the purpose of post-hoc rationalisation is not an intellectually honest approach. At any rate the story of Noah has various historical constraints even if you do want to post-hoc rationalise it, some of which where suggested by @blü 2 in post #87, so if you find evidence of a flood dating prior to the time apes descended from the trees for example it won't cut it, not even close.

I might add that the Quran states that an unbeliever (Noah's son) proposes climbing the mountains to escape the flood in the story, and Noah refutes that climbing a mouuntain will be able to save him.

'So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains and Noah called out to his son who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us and be not with the Unbelievers!" 1536

43
The son replied: "I will be take myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save from the Command of Allah any but those on whom He hath mercy!" and the waves came between them and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.'

So you claim that the Quran does not say the flood covers the mountains, yet the Quranic Noah refutes that taking oneself to a mountain will save one from the flood. Also people have lived on mountains into antiquity, so coming back to 71:26, how would the unbelievers of Noah's people living on the mountaintops perish in the flood if it doesn't cover the mountains? Additionally, that it says the Ark floated on waves like mountains seems to suggest that the waves at least had substantial height.

In my opinion I think that when we consider the suggestions in the Quran coupled with it having only a few differences with the Genesis narrative which makes part of it's historical context it is most probable that the Quranic narrative can be dismissed for similar reasons to the Biblical narrative such as the concern with where all the water came from and went to. It is scientific knowledge that was not available in Muhammad's day coupled with the assumption that the Quran can't be wrong that leads people to post-hoc rationalise it's story in my opinion

 

[firedragon]

It is probably just traditionally ascribed to Mount Judi, as such I don't *know* it is Mount Judi, but I think that when we study history, what we are often studying rather than certain knowledge is what are the possibilities and probablities.

From Mount Judi - Wikipedia it states, "The Syrians of the east Tigris had a legend of the ark resting on the Djûdi mountain in the land of Kard. This legend may in origin have been independent of the Genesis account of Noah's flood, rooted in the more general Near Eastern flood legends, but following Christianization of the Syrians, from about the 2nd century AD, it became associated with the Mountains of Ararat where Noah landed according to Genesis, and from Syria also this legend also spread to the Armenians. The Armenians did not traditionally associate Noah's landing site with Mount Ararat, known natively as Masis, but until the 11th century continued to associate Noah's ark with Mount Judi.[6]" In my opinion it is reasonable that Muhammad may have met Syrians, and as such looking at it from the perspective of probability and possibility, it is most likely where Muhammad got the tradition from.

I suppose if you can demonstrate that Muhammad would have been familiar with other places known as Al Judi to the Arabs of Muhammad's lifetime for completeness we would want to consider those sites as well, but I'm guessing that you don't have a pre-prepared list.

This is not about Muhammed. Its about the OP.

So you are affirming that there were legends about a ship, Judi, and you have quoted the Wikipedia page for that. Am I right?

In my opinion neither does it refute 4000+ years or propose an alternative for it, and I would suggest that divorcing the Quran from it's historical context (which includes pre-existing Noah's traditions in circulation amongst the Arabs of Muhammad's lifetime) for the purpose of post-hoc rationalisation is not an intellectually honest approach. At any rate the story of Noah has various historical constraints even if you do want to post-hoc rationalise it, some of which where suggested by @blü 2 in post #87, so if you find evidence of a flood dating prior to the time apes descended from the trees for example it won't cut it, not even close.

I might add that the Quran states that an unbeliever (Noah's son) proposes climbing the mountains to escape the flood in the story, and Noah refutes that climbing a mouuntain will be able to save him.

'So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains and Noah called out to his son who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! embark with us and be not with the Unbelievers!" 1536

43
The son replied: "I will be take myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save from the Command of Allah any but those on whom He hath mercy!" and the waves came between them and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.'

So you claim that the Quran does not say the flood covers the mountains, yet the Quranic Noah refutes that taking oneself to a mountain will save one from the flood. Also people have lived on mountains into antiquity, so coming back to 71:26, how would the unbelievers of Noah's people living on the mountaintops perish in the flood if it doesn't cover the mountains? Additionally, that it says the Ark floated on waves like mountains seems to suggest that the waves at least had substantial height.

In my opinion I think that when we consider the suggestions in the Quran coupled with it having only a few differences with the Genesis narrative which makes part of it's historical context it is most probable that the Quranic narrative can be dismissed for similar reasons to the Biblical narrative such as the concern with where all the water came from and went to. It is scientific knowledge that was not available in Muhammad's day coupled with the assumption that the Quran can't be wrong that leads people to post-hoc rationalise it's story in my opinion

The thing is this. You have a right to your opinion. But bottomline is, the Quran doesn't state that this event was 4000 years old.

Unless you say that you believe the Bible chronology is correct and affirm its a young earth.

 

[firedragon]

I apologize for being slow off the mark ─ of course Nooh is Noah.

The original tale of the Flood is from Sumer, a former part of Mesopotamia, and dates to the third millennium BCE. Its Noah figure was Ziasudra ('Life of Distant Days'). Sumerian is an isolate language, but the language of the neighboring Akkadians was Semitic, and having learnt the story by about 2000 BCE, called the Noah figure Uta-Napishti ("I Found Life"). The story passed from the Akkadians to their Semitic neighbors in Babylon and had its present form (as part of 'The Epic of Gilgamesh') by about 1800 BCE.

The Noah's Flood story in the Tanakh (early 1st millennium BCE) closely follows the Babylonian tale. (There were cultural bonds between Semitic Mesopotamia and Semitic Canaan. Abraham, you'll recall, was said to be from Mesopotamia.)

So it seems a reasonable guess that some local flood on the Tigris or Euphrates may have inspired the original tale ─ perhaps some Sumerian farmer saved his family and some cattle on a raft.

Anything could be a "could be".

 

[danieldemol]

This is not about Muhammed. Its about the OP.

So you are affirming that there were legends about a ship, Judi, and you have quoted the Wikipedia page for that. Am I right?

Noah's ark coming to rest on Mount Judi to be specific. And it cites a source which looks a bit historical at 1900, but nobody has refuted it with any updated studies that I'm aware of.

The thing is this. You have a right to your opinion. But bottomline is, the Quran doesn't state that this event was 4000 years old.

I never said it did.

Unless you say that you believe the Bible chronology is correct and affirm its a young earth.

Nope, for me I think @blü 2 's tale about a Sumerian who saved his family on a raft and perhaps 1 or 2 cows is the real deal, but the Quran can be interpreted consistently from a young earth perspective in my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

I never said it did.

But you seem to harp on 4,000 years. Thus, where is your evidence?

Just saying "it could be 4,000 because the Quran does not say it is not 4,000" is not a valid argument and you know it. You could just come up with any year, 10000, 20000, 15000, 4500, 3250, what ever you want and just say "the Quran doesnt say it is not" which is I think beneath you mate.

Nope, for me I think @blü 2 's tale about a Sumerian who saved his family on a raft and perhaps 1 or 2 cows is the real deal, but the Quran can be interpreted consistently from a young earth perspective in my opinion.

Nope. Blu did not say the Sumerian tale said anything about 1 or 2 cows, and mate, I have read it, you should too. Real deal? Lol. 1 or 2 cows "seems to be the real deal" you said? Seems to be. Wow.

Also, you are now talking about a young earth in the Quran. Just your opinion. You seem to be making opinions off the hat like an open tap with no water.

Evidence mate evidence.

Hope you understand.

 

[danieldemol]

But you seem to harp on 4,000 years. Thus, where is your evidence?

Just saying "it could be 4,000 because the Quran does not say it is not 4,000" is not a valid argument and you know it. You could just come up with any year, 10000, 20000, 15000, 4500, 3250, what ever you want and just say "the Quran doesnt say it is not" which is I think beneath you mate.

Try to empathise with Muhammad's Allah, you have placed your Prophet in a timeframe when the established view of spiritual history is that it occured approximately 4,000 years ago, and you have the foresight to know that one day this view will be demonstrated most probably false and many believers in you will lose faith because of it. Why wouldn't you refute it?

ETA and if you think a figure such as over 10,000 years could reasonably be come up with you probably were not paying much attention to post #87

Also, you are now talking about a young earth in the Quran. Just your opinion. You seem to be making opinions off the hat like an open tap with no water.

Evidence mate evidence.

Hope you understand.

Sure, the Quran says for example;

'We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.' from Surah 50. Qaf Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim verse38.

One possible way of interpreting this is that the heavens and the earth where created in 6 days.

I think it would be easier for the reverse to be proven. Find a verse which demonstrates that the earth is older than 6000 years and we will see if it can be interpreted consistently with a young earth.

 

[blü 2]

Anything could be a "could be".

Still, the Sumerians invented cuneiform writing, the earliest writing known, and in this case the story's trail back to Sumer in the 3rd millennium BCE is attested by the writings.

 

[firedragon]

Try to empathise with Muhammad's Allah, you have placed your Prophet in a timeframe when the established view of spiritual history is that it occured approximately 4,000 years ago, and you have the foresight to know that one day this view will be demonstrated most probably false and many believers in you will lose faith because of it. Why wouldn't you refute it?

ETA and if you think a figure such as over 10,000 years could reasonably be come up with you probably were not paying much attention to post #87

Who's established view?

 

[firedragon]

'We created the heavens and the earth and all between them in Six Days nor did any sense of weariness touch Us.' from Surah 50. Qaf Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim verse38.

One possible way of interpreting this is that the heavens and the earth where created in 6 days.

I think it would be easier for the reverse to be proven. Find a verse which demonstrates that the earth is older than 6000 years and we will see if it can be interpreted consistently with a young earth.

Great. This is your evidence? Topic for a new thread.

Cheers.

 

[Baroodi]

Assume that you are well read, the who you are addressing here has not, and provide your case. Then, it would be a good discussion.

H
Then how come you judge something you nothing about!?

 

[firedragon]

H
Then how come you judge something you nothing about!?

Which one are you speaking about specifically?

 

[danieldemol]

Who's established view?

The established view of the Jews and Christians of Arabia in Muhammad's lifetime.