Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[Muffled]

If God cannot die then what significance is the death of Jesus as God?

None whatsoever.

If it was not aman upon the cross, there was no purpose.

man is part of Creation and God is what Created. We are not the same nor can we ever be.

Regards,
Scott

You are presuming that God can't die. The question here was never that He couldn't die simply that He chose not to. However the significance of the physical death of Jesus still remains because Jesus laid down His life for us. That is the ultimate act of love that God can demonstrate for us.

The opposite is true. The thieves on either side of Jesus were men but their lives and deaths were mostly insignificant. The thief that asked to be in Paradise and was granted his wish is significant for that fact.

This concept smacks of a concept of God creating and then stepping out of the picture. However the Bible reveals a God who is very active in His creation.

From your previous contribution you stated that God was too big to fit into a body. Lew0049 is correct when he states that you are limiting God's power. I have said it before and will say it again that God is able to incarnate because God is God wherever He is. He could incarnate in a million bodies and be God in each one of them. That is soemthing that we as Human spirits can't do because we are finite.

 

[Popeyesays]

Sorry, Muffled, but God never steps into or out of Creation. God is not part of Creation--Creation is part of God. That's not an absolute truth but a useful metaphor.

Not only does God cause Creation, but the Will of God maintains Creation from moment to moment.

\Jesus incarnated in perfect reflection of the Spirit of God the Holy Spirit. We stand in awe of that. But Jesus never embodied God, nor did Jesus ever in His Own words say that He did.

If God had been nailed to the cross, then God would have ceased being God because He was at that moment contained in Creation and no longer the infinite being.

God is eternal--no beginning, no end.

Regards,
Scott

 

[blueman]

The Quran was written close to 700 years after the life of Christ. The New Testament Gospels, as well as many of Paul's Epistles were written well within the lifetimes of those who witnessed said events. So tell me, who was the witness that survived some 600 or so years to inform Muhammed that Jesus really did'nt die???

 

[maro]

The Quran was written close to 700 years after the life of Christ. The New Testament Gospels, as well as many of Paul's Epistles were written well within the lifetimes of those who witnessed said events. So tell me, who was the witness that survived some 600 or so years to inform Muhammed that Jesus really did'nt die???

Allah is the witness who informed prophet Muhammed (PBUH) that jesus(pbuh) was not killed or crucified

[6:19]say: what thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "Allah is witness between me and you; this Qur-an hath been revealed to me by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. .......

 

[Popeyesays]

God informed Muhammad that Jesus was the rightful Messiah, and would come to judge the quick and the dead at the end of times. God told Muhammad that Jesus was born of a virgin mother.

God also said that the Jesus Who died on the cross was only the fleshly shell and the Spirit that was Christ was taken up to God.

Maro is right about the author of the Qur'an, but Maro misinterprets the meaning of that verse.

Regards,
Scott

 

[maro]

God also said that the Jesus Who died on the cross was only the fleshly shell and the Spirit that was Christ was taken up to God.

Maro is right about the author of the Qur'an, but Maro misinterprets the meaning of that verse.

i am not misinterpreting the verse scott, you are the one who keep loading the quran with things it doesn't say to fit with your "faith" ,

are you saying that prophet muhammed (PBUH) misinterpreted the verse and billions of muslims , most of which speak arabic as a first language misinterpreted the verse , and you r the only one who interpret it right ?!!!!!!!!!!!

for god sake , how can this be interpreted ??

That they said (in boast), "We killed Al-Masih 'Isa the son of Maryam, the Messenger [4:157]of Allah"; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.


if jesus (PBUH) died on the cross , the quran would have never said ( NOR CRUCIFY HIM) ,
THE verse clearly says that jesus was not crucified at all

 

[Popeyesays]

i am not misinterpreting the verse scott, you are the one who keep loading the quran with things it doesn't say to fit with your "faith" ,

First this, then the other. What do you mean by putting 'faith' in quote marks. Are you saying that my faith is false or nefarious in some way? Many muslims believe Baha`i's are heretics. Do you?

As to the verse, it does not contradict anything. They could not crucify nor could they kill Christ. What happened to Jesus of Nazareth is not as important as what happened to the Christ Spirit.

The Christ Spirit rose, and the flesh became dust.

Regards,
Scott

 

[maro]

First this, then the other. What do you mean by putting 'faith' in quote marks. Are you saying that my faith is false or nefarious in some way? Many muslims believe Baha`i's are heretics. Do you ?

Actually not " Many muslims" , but ''All muslims" believe that Muhammed (PBUH) is the last prophet and messenger :yes: , including myself , do i need to feel ashamed or something ?

 

[summia]

The Quran was written close to 700 years after the life of Christ. The New Testament Gospels, as well as many of Paul's Epistles were written well within the lifetimes of those who witnessed said events. So tell me, who was the witness that survived some 600 or so years to inform Muhammed that Jesus really did'nt die???

I appritiate u for asking such question. Atleast u discover that Muhammad didn't written the Quran by his own hand, coz "Who was the witness survives some 600 or so years to inform Muhammad pbuh that Jesus really didn't die?"
This Question makes sense for those who still believing that Quran is Muhammad's Handy work.
Herez answer for ur question!

No man informed, God informed Muhammad pbuh. Yeah! God Who raised the Jesus alive up to heavens, when poeple were going to crusified to Jesus pbuh..... Herez in Surat Al-e-Imraan (3rd chapter; verses 52 to 57)
Quran says:

فَلَمَّآ أَحَسَّ عِيسَىٰ مِنْهُمُ ٱلْكُفْرَ قَالَ مَنْ أَنصَارِيۤ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ قَالَ ٱلْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنْصَارُ ٱللَّهِ آمَنَّا بِٱللَّهِ وَٱشْهَدْ بِأَنَّا مُسْلِمُونَ

52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

رَبَّنَآ آمَنَّا بِمَآ أَنزَلَتَ وَٱتَّبَعْنَا ٱلرَّسُولَ فَٱكْتُبْنَا مَعَ ٱلشَّاهِدِين

53. "Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger. then write us down among those who bear witness."

وَمَكَرُواْ وَمَكَرَ ٱللَّهُ وَٱللَّهُ خَيْرُ ٱلْمَاكِرِين

54. And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.

إِذْ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يٰعِيسَىٰ إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ ٱلْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

55. Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

Hav a Look!
Who is the wintness? not a person who saw the Jesus alive!
God is the wintness, who done so!
Is there necessary to present more proof?

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually not " Many muslims" , but ''All muslims" believe that Muhammed (PBUH) is the last prophet and messenger :yes: , including myself , do i need to feel ashamed or something ?

I'm just getting a feel for issue. So you DO believe that baha`i's are kafir? Just say so.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I'm just getting a feel for issue. So you DO believe that baha`i's are kafir? Just say so.

Do you think baha`i's are Muslims?

 

[Popeyesays]

Do you think baha`i's are Muslims?

I believe we are followers of the same God, the God of Abraham.

Islam does itself no favors by practicing religious persecution against Baha`i's in Egypt and Iran.

I believe if Abraham was a Muslim, then Baha`i's are "musl;im" in the same sense.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

Do you think baha`i's are Muslims?

No more than Muslims are Christians or Jews.

(How the heck did this topic drift in this direction anyway? Oh well.)

 

[Popeyesays]

Maro was putting "religion" in quotation marks when referring to MY faith. I just thought that if there is a feeling of hostility toward Baha`i's from some sectors, it would be best to have it openly stated.

Regards,
Scott

 

[TashaN]

I believe we are followers of the same God, the God of Abraham.

That wasn't my question. Of course we share our belief in one God, not only with you my friends from the Baha'i faith, but also with Jews, Christians, etc.

Islam does itself no favors by practicing religious persecution against Baha`i's in Egypt and Iran.

I really sympathize with you for what happening in these countries. Iran and Egypt went so far to persecute not only the Baha'i faith followers, but the muslims and Christians as well. Let's not judge the people dear Scott, but the governments which is obviously supported by the US governmets as you know, like the Egyptian government.

I believe if Abraham was a Muslim, then Baha`i's are "musl;im" in the same sense.

Fair enough. Nevertheless, we muslims believe that if someone didn't believe as what Mohammed "peace be upon him" taught and prayed with us toward our Qiblah "direction" which is to Mekkah as you know, so s/he is not a muslim "kafir". I don't know why people think kafir is an insult. In Arabic, it simply known to be used to address non-muslims, nothing more and nothing else. Kafir = non-muslim.

I hope we will stop going off-topic for now, but if you are interested in this topic so you can start a new thread.

 

[Popeyesays]

"I really sympathize with you for what happening in these countries. Iran and Egypt went so far to persecute not only the Baha'i faith followers, but the muslims and Christians as well. Let's not judge the people dear Scott, but the governments which is obviously supported by the US governmets as you know, like the Egyptian government."

Iran is much worse about it than Egypt and Iran is not under the influence of the U.S. in any way shape or form.

The U.S. has already gone on notice that Egypt is violating the human rights of Baha`i's.

Israel is much more influenced by the U.S. and welcomes Baha`i's to the country by the thousands each year to go on pilgrimage to the shrines on Mount Carmel and Bahji.

Iraq also discriminated against Baha`i's until the fall of Sadaam Hussein. At that time Egypt glossed over the ID card issue by allowing people to leave the form blank in the religious list.

Regards,
Scott

 

[summia]

No more than Muslims are Christians or Jews.

:yes:
U r right, Muslims are: coz Christains/Jews means follower of Jesus and Moses ;Yeah! we follow, even in a real scese we follow.
But Alas! Christian failed to follow Jesus correctly coz they had Blind Believe for their scholars.

 

[lew0049]

:yes:
U r right, Muslims are: coz Christains/Jews means follower of Jesus and Moses ;Yeah! we follow, even in a real scese we follow.
But Alas! Christian failed to follow Jesus correctly coz they had Blind Believe for their scholars.

Blind belief? Not at all, the OT contains nearly 100 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled - so I would say on the contrary - Christainity is the only faith system that I have found where the leap of faith is not blind - regardless tho, a leap of faith.

 

[Popeyesays]

Blind belief? Not at all, the OT contains nearly 100 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled - so I would say on the contrary - Christainity is the only faith system that I have found where the leap of faith is not blind - regardless tho, a leap of faith.

Well, the Bible was canonized in the 1300's. So the Bible had one thousand years to sort itself out and revise itself to either create or find fulfillment for more than 100 prophecies.

In the original Hebrew it does not say in Isaiah that the Messiah would be born of a virgin for istance-it simply says a young woman.

I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong, mind you that it has had centuries to be adapted to be self-fulfilling.

For instance I do not believe the "Wise Councilllor, Prince of Peace" has anything to do with Jesus, but refers to a later Apostle of God.

Rational thought is the FRIEND of faith not the enemy.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

Blind belief? Not at all, the OT contains nearly 100 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled - so I would say on the contrary - Christainity is the only faith system that I have found where the leap of faith is not blind - regardless tho, a leap of faith.

I suspect summia is referring to the normative Christian belief about the station of Christ. As you know, Muslims are not fond of the idea that Christ could be God. Ah, but that is meat for another thread, I'm sure.