Qu'ran: Did Jesus die?

[lunamoth]

The only scriptural basis in the Gospels is when Peter says: "16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Even here he denies the importance of the flesh. Clerly the flesh is not the son of God, but the Spirit is.

Regards,
Scott

Scott, I don't think you are hearing me. I have no argument with the idea that the spiritual resurrection body is not flesh and blood. I have no trouble with idea that the Father is not flesh and blood. I think the point of the resurrection narratives is, well, that Christ was resurrrected. It does not make sense to me to try to twist and turn out of this conclusion. This is going off-topic, but I think resurrection is like what Paul said,

35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.( 1 Corinthians 15)

The perishble body is like the seed, it is consumed by the new spiritual body. What the heck does all of that mean? I don't know. I'm not really too worried about it, although I really love the symbolism of the seed growing into something new, the transformation. Maybe that's what happened in the tomb, but at an accelerated rate.

I agree that from Scripture alone you can't derive the Trinity, or the Incarnation. But it's also not a complete view of Christianity to look at the Bible by itself, out of the context of the Church. Can you get your own meaning out of the Bible without the Church? Sure, go for it. Can another religion take the Bible and derive its own interpretations wholly unrelated to Christianity? Sure, that's been done too. But neither of those things mean that Christianity has it wrong and others have it right. That's just like when Drew tells you that you don't understand the true meaning of Baha'i scripture.

Enjoying the conversation by the way, and hope the thread author does not think we've taken things too far afield.

luna

 

[Popeyesays]

Luna,

What you said is aces with me. What I like best about our discussions is that we always seems to boil ourselves down to agreement in every way that really counts.

My very best regards always,
Scott

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I think that when Christians--or anyone else, for that matter--think Jesus is the literal "Son of God" they are speaking with no scriptural basis whatsoever. I've said that over and over, and over and over some more.

God does not have nor does He need progeny. Jesus claimed to be the Son of Man, and that has a great deal of significance in the TaNakh and it is a much more important claim.

Do you understand the term "no scriptural basis"?

Regards,
Scott

Of course but this i something you should discuss with them for I agree but that is not the only issue I am talking about. Please continue with the rest for it is all inclusive and I have more if you are up to it in terms of reconciling the text of Quran and Bible.

 

[Popeyesays]

That's fine Mujahid. I'll give you frubals for any point you bring up I have not considered.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Shazeen786]

People belive that he was crucified but the Quran states that he was not crucified instead the prophet was taken by Allah into a cave on some mountain and in his place there was a slave with similar characteristics like the prophet and there he remained for a couple of days until he died or as we belive he was taken by Allah into jannat(paradise)and it has also be stated that when the world comes to an end the phrophet will return back to this world and spread the message of islam and in his hands will be two holes , it is this fact that makes people question the death of the phrophet , all I can say is that if you have true beliefs in the Quran you should read it to know the truth rather then listening to what others tell you.

 

[Popeyesays]

People belive that he was crucified but the Quran states that he was not crucified instead the prophet was taken by Allah into a cave on some mountain and in his place there was a slave with similar characteristics like the prophet and there he remained for a couple of days until he died or as we belive he was taken by Allah into jannat(paradise)and it has also be stated that when the world comes to an end the phrophet will return back to this world and spread the message of islam and in his hands will be two holes , it is this fact that makes people question the death of the phrophet , all I can say is that if you have true beliefs in the Quran you should read it to know the truth rather then listening to what others tell you.

Actually, the Qur'an says none of that. Not even the Bukhari hadiths say any of that.
The story is actually unfounded myth, or fable, perhaps you could give us a citation for this story? Otherwise, it's not easy to give it any credence.

The Christians have lots of similar fable and myth to justify their belief that Jesus is God incarnate, or that the Trinity is a true representation of the nature of God.

The actual Gospels (Injeel) say none of that.

I am brought to mind of the complicated fable around the occultation of the 12th Imam where the child was taken to a hidden city that was cut off from the world in a desert. The city is surrounded by two deadly rivers of sand rotating in opposite directions until God's own good time when the Imam will return just as he was before he vanished.

A pleasant fable, but a fable nonetheless.


Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

Actually, the Qur'an says none of that. Not even the Bukhari hadiths say any of that.
The story is actually unfounded myth, or fable, perhaps you could give us a citation for this story? Otherwise, it's not easy to give it any credence.

The Christians have lots of similar fable and myth to justify their belief that Jesus is God incarnate, or that the Trinity is a true representation of the nature of God.

The actual Gospels (Injeel) say none of that.

I am brought to mind of the complicated fable around the occultation of the 12th Imam where the child was taken to a hidden city that was cut off from the world in a desert. The city is surrounded by two deadly rivers of sand rotating in opposite directions until God's own good time when the Imam will return just as he was before he vanished.

A pleasant fable, but a fable nonetheless.


Regards,
Scott

The Muslims love their fairy stories. The Biblical account of Jesus being cricified had been in existence for over 600 years by the time the Qu'ran was written. The passage in the Qu'ran wasn't written to contradict the Biblical account. God wouldn't do that. However since He left and didn't pass through death He can still affirm that He wasn't killed or crucified. The object of the crucifixion was to kill him but the full crucifixion didn't take place because that objective wasn't met. Even the objective of expunging Him from life by killing the body didn't work for long because God raised the body just as Jesus said.

 

[TashaN]

The Muslims love their fairy stories. The Biblical account of Jesus being cricified had been in existence for over 600 years by the time the Qu'ran was written. The passage in the Qu'ran wasn't written to contradict the Biblical account. God wouldn't do that. However since He left and didn't pass through death He can still affirm that He wasn't killed or crucified. The object of the crucifixion was to kill him but the full crucifixion didn't take place because that objective wasn't met. Even the objective of expunging Him from life by killing the body didn't work for long because God raised the body just as Jesus said.

Jesus didn't tell you anything because he wasn't there. He told you that they didn't crucify him and you don't want to believe. He told you that no body killed him and you didn't believe. I feel now how does Jesus felt when no one believed him and he showed his disciples that he wasn't crucified. The bible say Jesus was crucified and his soul was out of his body and they knew all that just from someone who saw such a thing. That means we can't depend in it. That's why Allah came to tell us the truth about what happened in the Quran.

 

[UnityNow101]

What Popeyesays is saying is beginning to make sense to me. The Quran states that they did not crucify Jesus....Meaning that the Spirit of Christ; the important and everlasting Christ was not ever silenced through crucifixion. The Jewish sages did not crucify the message nor the Spirit of Christ, as they had so desperately wished to do. The Bible says that the body of Jesus was crucified but that He rose again and overcame the crucifixion through resurrection. Thus, His Spirit and message were not crucified by the Jewish sages.....Only the body, which is of no avail.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus didn't tell you anything because he wasn't there. He told you that they didn't crucify him and you don't want to believe. He told you that no body killed him and you didn't believe. I feel now how does Jesus felt when no one believed him and he showed his disciples that he wasn't crucified. The bible say Jesus was crucified and his soul was out of his body and they knew all that just from someone who saw such a thing. That means we can't depend in it. That's why Allah came to tell us the truth about what happened in the Quran.

I guess you must mean the day when the resurrected Jesus was showing off the nail prints and the scar from the wound in His side to His disciples. Evidently to you that kind of showing must be evidence that He wasn't crucified.

Yes. The disciples reported what they saw. They saw Jesus crucified and dead. They could not see the spirit leave the body before death. Only God would know that. That is why God can tell you what happened in the Qu'ran. The evidence for what the Qu'ran says about it is also in the Bible from the words of Jesus and the testimony of others. However it is easy to miss because it isn't something we would think about. A Muslim can't find out much about Jesus without reading the Bible because the Qu'ran has very little information about Him.

 

[Popeyesays]

Actually, the Qur'an has a great deal of information about Jesus in it. Do a google search in the Quran for Jesus or "Isa" you will find hundreds of hits. An entire Surah is devoted to Mary, for instance and the description of the Nativity of Jesus is beautiful, convincing and amazing.

If more Christians would read the Qur'an to see for themselves what it is and is not, there would be a lot less confusion and strife in the world.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

Actually, the Qur'an has a great deal of information about Jesus in it. Do a google search in the Quran for Jesus or "Isa" you will find hundreds of hits. An entire Surah is devoted to Mary, for instance and the description of the Nativity of Jesus is beautiful, convincing and amazing.

If more Christians would read the Qur'an to see for themselves what it is and is not, there would be a lot less confusion and strife in the world.

Regards,
Scott

I have the Qu'ran on my computer. If I do a search on the name Jesus I do not find more thatn a handful of references and even in the references themselves there is scant information such as Jesus was given the Gospel and then doesn't go on to say what the Gospel is.

I have also completely read the Qu'ran (Saudi Arabian authorized version, which I learned early on not to bother with the footnotes because they were bull@##*.).

For a Christian there is not much new in the Qu'ran and a whole lot missing.

 

[Popeyesays]

There are a bout 100 hits for Isa, Marium, Injeel. In the Shakir translation. Those words are Arabic for Jesus, Mary, and Gospel. Add in hits for Musa, Torah, Ibrahim, and Yaya (Moses, Torah, Abraham and John the Baptist and the total soars.

Regards,Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Jesus, 4:163, 9:30, 9:31, 10:68, 19:30-34, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 61:6, 61:14

• bears witness on Resurrection Day, 4:159
• Christians asked not to deify, 4:171
• creation of, 3:45-49, 19:22
• disciples, 3:52, 61:14
• divergent views about, 43:65
• followers above others on Resurrection day, 3:55
• healing of blind and lepers, raising the dead, 5:110
• his holy inspiration, 2:87, 2:252, 5:110
• his nature is as Adam's, 3:59
• is the means to know Judgement Day (alternate translation), 43:61
• Jews boast of killing, 4:157
• not Allah, 5:17, 5:72, 5:116
• only a messenger, 4:171, 4:172, 5:75, 19:30
• only seemed slain and crucified, 4:157
• resurrected, 4:158
• resurrection foretold, 3:55, 19:33
• truth about him will be realized when people die, 4:159

 

[Muffled]

Jesus, 4:163, 9:30, 9:31, 10:68, 19:30-34, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 61:6, 61:14

• bears witness on Resurrection Day, 4:159
• Christians asked not to deify, 4:171
• creation of, 3:45-49, 19:22
• disciples, 3:52, 61:14
• divergent views about, 43:65
• followers above others on Resurrection day, 3:55
• healing of blind and lepers, raising the dead, 5:110
• his holy inspiration, 2:87, 2:252, 5:110
• his nature is as Adam's, 3:59
• is the means to know Judgement Day (alternate translation), 43:61
• Jews boast of killing, 4:157
• not Allah, 5:17, 5:72, 5:116
• only a messenger, 4:171, 4:172, 5:75, 19:30
• only seemed slain and crucified, 4:157
• resurrected, 4:158
• resurrection foretold, 3:55, 19:33
• truth about him will be realized when people die, 4:159

I only count ten not 100. The verse in question 4:157 as you mentioned is about the boasting of Jews. It was never meant to be a full compendium of information about the crucifixion. For that you have to go to the Bible. However it does point out the information that Jesus did not go through death which would have been difficult to discern from the Biblical text.

 

[Popeyesays]

I only count ten not 100. The verse in question 4:157 as you mentioned is about the boasting of Jews. It was never meant to be a full compendium of information about the crucifixion. For that you have to go to the Bible. However it does point out the information that Jesus did not go through death which would have been difficult to discern from the Biblical text.

The purpose of the Qur'an was not to repeat the Gospels. The purpose of the Gospel was not to repeat the Torah. The purpose of the Bayan was not to repeat the Qur'an. The purpose of the Iqan was not to repeat the Bayan.

Each of these Holy Texts praises the text before it and anticipates the revelation to c0ome, but each is a separate chapter in the revelation of God.


Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

The purpose of the Qur'an was not to repeat the Gospels. The purpose of the Gospel was not to repeat the Torah. The purpose of the Bayan was not to repeat the Qur'an. The purpose of the Iqan was not to repeat the Bayan.

Each of these Holy Texts praises the text before it and anticipates the revelation to c0ome, but each is a separate chapter in the revelation of God.


Regards,
Scott

Please excuse my ignorance. What are these two?

 

[Popeyesays]

Please excuse my ignorance. What are these two?

The Bayan was the Mother Book of the Revelation of the Bab. The Iqan is the Book of Certitude revealed by Baha`u'llah. They are texts of the Baha`i Faith.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Muffled]

Jesus, 4:163, 9:30, 9:31, 10:68, 19:30-34, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 61:6, 61:14

• bears witness on Resurrection Day, 4:159
• Christians asked not to deify, 4:171
• creation of, 3:45-49, 19:22
• disciples, 3:52, 61:14
• divergent views about, 43:65
• followers above others on Resurrection day, 3:55
• healing of blind and lepers, raising the dead, 5:110
• his holy inspiration, 2:87, 2:252, 5:110
• his nature is as Adam's, 3:59
• is the means to know Judgement Day (alternate translation), 43:61
• Jews boast of killing, 4:157
• not Allah, 5:17, 5:72, 5:116
• only a messenger, 4:171, 4:172, 5:75, 19:30
• only seemed slain and crucified, 4:157
• resurrected, 4:158
• resurrection foretold, 3:55, 19:33
• truth about him will be realized when people die, 4:159

004.159
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
SHAKIR: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

There seems to be a wide difference of opinion in these translations. I don't see that it either supports or negates the resurrection of Jesus unless you accept Pickthal and Shakir's use of the word for the General Resurrection as evidence in reverse that Jesus was resurrected.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

004.159
YUSUFALI: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -
SHAKIR: And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.

There seems to be a wide difference of opinion in these translations. I don't see that it either supports or negates the resurrection of Jesus unless you accept Pickthal and Shakir's use of the word for the General Resurrection as evidence in reverse that Jesus was resurrected.

the general Resurrection is a genral resurrection for all mankind before it precedes the day of Judgement and Jesus after everyone in humanity is resurrected Jesus peace be upon him we be called to witness. it is not speaking about Jesus being resurrected from the Christian methodology for muslims do not believe he died so it is not referring to the resurrection from that side of it.

but all the verses say the same thing.