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Quran Criticism - God's word or manmade?

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Its interesting if that is claimed to be a prophecy because it says, "Ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, IF ALLAH WILLS"

In other words if it doesn't come true Muhammad could fall back on making it conditional upon Allah's will, in other words it is not falsifiable and therefore does not count as a believable prophecy.

When you read the Bible over and over again, you notice things that you didn't notice before. Isaiah 5:20 is a Bible prophecy that is coming true. Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
And obviously the correct one when one drops personal prejudice.

Thank you for admitting that you are wrong again.

I believe that personal prejudice influences people to reject the Messiah.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I believe that personal prejudice influences people to reject the Messiah.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19
It is understanding of the Bible that leads to that. In fact ever since the 1950's, and probably before that, seminaries have been hotbeds of atheism. Understanding the Bible leads to atheism.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
It is understanding of the Bible that leads to that. In fact ever since the 1950's, and probably before that, seminaries have been hotbeds of atheism. Understanding the Bible leads to atheism.

This atheist became a Christian from reading about symbolism of the Bible in Narnia. Harvard Student And Atheist Encounters Jesus While Reading “Narnia” | God TV

Accordingly, she then enrolled herself in Metaethics class to look for answers that would enforce her argument. Instead, the subject gave her an assignment about an essay by C.S. Lewis.

God is goodness
“Essentially, what C.S. Lewis says is God is goodness. God is the good. And our lives are good when we strive to imitate God.” She described the essay as “mind-blowing”.

This led her to read the Bible once again with the intent of understanding it. And Jesus’ Words convicted her of her sins even though she has considered herself as a good person.

Ultimately, Jordan got to the part of Jesus’ crucifixion. Over the years, she believed her favorite story, C.S. Lewis’ Narnia, was just mere fiction. But the Bible showed her the ingenuity of Lewis’ craft by liking the character Aslan as Jesus and Edmund as her. The thought of Aslan or Jesus dying for Edmund or her, presented a new perspective in Jordan to see Christianity.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
There are good reasons to be an atheist and bad ones. You have not been reasoning rationally here so I am not sure why you were ever an atheist.

Understanding the Bible led to that atheist becoming a Christian. When you read the Bible over and over again you notice things that you didn't notice before.
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Hi,

Ultimately us who don't believe in the Quran don't need to provide a reason for why of course, but for as long as we are free to do so some of us will openly object to submission to the Quran due to various reasons.

If that describes you, by special request from one of our RF members who shall not be named this is the thread for you.

This is your one stop shop for Quran criticism, doesn't matter if it's content criticism, scientific criticism, or any other criticism under the sun.

Since I'm the writer of the OP I get the privelege of picking the lowest hanging fruit for first go.

Firstly though I'd like to tell you about my approach. My approach is that as time goes on and new information comes to light, I believe people will inevitably endeavour to post hoc rationalise the Quran and other texts held as sacred in order to try and make the interpretation of the sacred book sound more appealing to a more modern/more informed audience. But if a text obviously referred to some scientific or other fact it should have been obvious to the earlier interpreters of the book who were faithful and devoted students of it who did not have that hindsight. Therefore ideally one would have the interpretation of the book within the lifetime of it's earliest sources, but failing that, the earlier the translation/interpretation the less post-hoc rationalisation will be expected in my opinion.

Hence the reason I pretty much stick to the Yusuf Ali translation, because it is possibly the earliest scholarly translation we have to English by a faithful widely respected scholar of Islam, therefore I would expect it to have less post-hoc rationalisation than later translations (although I'm inclined to think that even it is likely to have some inevitable degree of post-hoc rationalisation given that it is fairly modern).

So here is the opening criticism, I like it because unlike highly technical criticisms which are less accesible to the common folk this one just requires some basic empathy for women;

From Surah 2. Al-Baqara Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim
Verse 282

'O ye who believe! when ye deal with each other in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties...
.....And get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her.'

Even if only interpreted as being a reference to financial transactions, in my opinion this unnecessarily incoveniences women by requiring double the number of women for testimony in the place of one man. One could easily see how a fallible patriarchal human could author such an error, but an omniscient God should know that two women are as suitable for testimony as two men, or that one man and one woman is as suitable for testimony as two men.

Now it is your turn to criticise the Quran if you wish to do so :)

The Quran contradicts itself by saying that Jesus is God and not God. Qur'an Contradiction: Is Jesus God or Not?

What we would like to do here is to show that even according to the testimony of the Quran, the Lord Jesus perfectly fulfills the criteria of being Deity.

and he shall be a prophet to the people of Israel (saying), that I have come to you, with a sign from God, namely, that I will CREATE for you out of clay (annee AKHLUQU lakum mina ALTTEENI) as though it were the form of a bird, and I will blow thereon and it shall become a bird by God's permission; and I will heal the blind from birth, and lepers; and I will bring the dead to life by God's permission; and I will tell you what you eat and what ye store up in your houses. Verily, in that is a sign for you if ye be believers. S. 3:49 Palmer

When God shall say, O Jesus son of Mary, remember my favour towards thee, and towards thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, that thou shouldest speak unto men in the cradle, and when thou wast grown up; and when I taught thee the scripture, and wisdom, and the law, and the gospel; and when thou didst CREATE of clay (wa-ith TAKHLUQU mina ALTTEENI) as it were the figure of a bird, by my permission, and didst breathe thereon, and it became a bird by my permission; and thou didst heal one blind from his birth, and the leper, by my permission; and when thou didst bring forth the dead [from their graves], by my permission; and when I with-held the children of Israel from [killing] thee, when thou hadst come unto them with evident [miracles], and such of them as believed not, said, this is nothing but manifest sorcery. S. 5:110 Sale

These two passages demonstrate that Christ has the breath of life and can create in exactly the same way God creates:

HE it is Who created you from clay (Huwa allathee KHALAQAKUM min TEENIN) and then HE decreed a term. And there is another term fixed with HIM. Yet you doubt. S. 6:2 Y. Ali

Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay (innee KHALIQUN basharan min TEENIN): When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." S. 38:71-72 Y. Ali

Note the connection between God breathing his Spirit into man with Christ being strengthened with the Holy Spirit, breathing life into clay birds and resurrecting the dead. And also notice that Christ created a living bird from clay just as God created man from clay. These passages therefore teach that Christ had the same life-giving Spirit of God!
The Quran says by way of mocking the gods of the people:

"O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought." S. 22:73
 

Skywalker

Well-Known Member
Hi,

Ultimately us who don't believe in the Quran don't need to provide a reason for why of course, but for as long as we are free to do so some of us will openly object to submission to the Quran due to various reasons.

If that describes you, by special request from one of our RF members who shall not be named this is the thread for you.

This is your one stop shop for Quran criticism, doesn't matter if it's content criticism, scientific criticism, or any other criticism under the sun.

Since I'm the writer of the OP I get the privelege of picking the lowest hanging fruit for first go.

Firstly though I'd like to tell you about my approach. My approach is that as time goes on and new information comes to light, I believe people will inevitably endeavour to post hoc rationalise the Quran and other texts held as sacred in order to try and make the interpretation of the sacred book sound more appealing to a more modern/more informed audience. But if a text obviously referred to some scientific or other fact it should have been obvious to the earlier interpreters of the book who were faithful and devoted students of it who did not have that hindsight. Therefore ideally one would have the interpretation of the book within the lifetime of it's earliest sources, but failing that, the earlier the translation/interpretation the less post-hoc rationalisation will be expected in my opinion.

Hence the reason I pretty much stick to the Yusuf Ali translation, because it is possibly the earliest scholarly translation we have to English by a faithful widely respected scholar of Islam, therefore I would expect it to have less post-hoc rationalisation than later translations (although I'm inclined to think that even it is likely to have some inevitable degree of post-hoc rationalisation given that it is fairly modern).

So here is the opening criticism, I like it because unlike highly technical criticisms which are less accesible to the common folk this one just requires some basic empathy for women;

From Surah 2. Al-Baqara Translation by Yusuf Ali | Islamic Reference | Alim
Verse 282

'O ye who believe! when ye deal with each other in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties...
.....And get two witnesses out of your own men and if there are not two men then a man and two women such as ye choose for witnesses so that if one of them errs the other can remind her.'

Even if only interpreted as being a reference to financial transactions, in my opinion this unnecessarily incoveniences women by requiring double the number of women for testimony in the place of one man. One could easily see how a fallible patriarchal human could author such an error, but an omniscient God should know that two women are as suitable for testimony as two men, or that one man and one woman is as suitable for testimony as two men.

Now it is your turn to criticise the Quran if you wish to do so :)

The Quran misunderstands the Christian belief that Jesus is the Son of God. What does it mean that Jesus is the Son of God? | GotQuestions.org

Jesus is not God’s Son in the sense of a human father and a son. God did not get married and have a son. God did not mate with Mary and, together with her, produce a son. Jesus is God’s Son in the sense that He is God made manifest in human form (John 1:1, 14). Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit. Luke 1:35 declares, “The angel answered, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.’”

The Quran says that Jesus was born miraclously to the virgin Mary. That's a contradiction because it also says that Jesus is not the Son of God. Someone cannot be a father if they do not in some sense create someone else. Allah breathing the spirit into Mary means that Jesus is the Son of God in the Quran.
 
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