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Quran Criticism - God's word or manmade?

firedragon

Veteran Member
Sure, it is a natural behavior to seek the meaning of words from their authors

1. So are you saying Muhammed presented the Qur'an as "His authorship"? Is there any evidence to this?
2. Also, do you believe that Muhammed authored the Quran or was it like a latter project?

The explanations given in the hadith that were orally transmitted.

Err. Which explanations, what is the transmission? What in the world are you speaking about? When you say "They" what is it? why is this relevant?

A)A phone call can't wait for the insignificant amount of time for a mother to finish nursing and put the baby down and call back?
B)You've never seen a nursing woman with a baby in one arm and a phone in the other calling her family and friends?

Lol. You are wrong. I think since you dont intend to, you dont understand what someone says.

See, without inconveniencing this nursing mom, one could send the "Other witness". DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE SENTENCE my friend?

It doesn't explicitly say anything about nursing either in my opinion. Also I said "suitable" not "inferior"

Sure it does not. But like you rendered this verse with the baggage you have, I rendered it with the baggage I have. You have a male superiority rendering, while I have given you the explanation of the Quran bi Quran methodology and understood it with my "Male and Female are equal in salvation and intellect" understanding.

You are asking me concerning things I have no knowledge of, but I'm sure an omniscient omnipotent God could have either selected or invented and explained a non-dual word to avoid the centuries of inconvenience to women caused by the ambiguity of a dual word which it should have been able to foresee.

I am showing your double standards. It is your problem. Also, you just created a strawman.

This is just about a word. Let me ask you again since you have not understood this though said two times over.

1. Earlier, you refused to acknowledge a simple arabic word which is dual plural as dual but you insisted it was "singular".
2. Why do you accept this Dual noun as a dual instead of similarly insisting that it is also "singular"?

Lol. Do you understand mate? Just say you made a mistake the previous time. Its perfectly fine.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
1. So are you saying Muhammed presented the Qur'an as "His authorship"? Is there any evidence to this?
2. Also, do you believe that Muhammed authored the Quran or was it like a latter project?
1. Doesn't matter, if it was presented as God's authorship and Muhammad as the Messenger of God then it would be natural to ask God to explain through Muhammad.
2. I consider Muhammad to be author of the Quran.

Err. Which explanations, what is the transmission? What in the world are you speaking about? When you say "They" what is it? why is this relevant?
Why don't we start with a concrete example of a hadith attributed to Muhammad.

From Sahih al-Bukhari 304 - Menstrual Periods - كتاب الحيض - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

'Sahih al-Bukhari 304
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) of `Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."'

IF this oral tradition went all the way back to Muhammad (yes there is no way of knowing that) THEN we would have an example of Muhammad explaining (in this case unsolicited) some verses of the Quran. It is relevant to the point that Muhammad may possibly have been the original interpreter of the Quran.


Lol. You are wrong. I think since you dont intend to, you dont understand what someone says.

See, without inconveniencing this nursing mom, one could send the "Other witness". DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE SENTENCE my friend?
Yes I understand, I just don't see why this requires more women than men. Men take leave due to reasons as well. If the other single man could be a witness so could the other single woman.

This is just about a word. Let me ask you again since you have not understood this though said two times over.

1. Earlier, you refused to acknowledge a simple arabic word which is dual plural as dual but you insisted it was "singular".
2. Why do you accept this Dual noun as a dual instead of similarly insisting that it is also "singular"?

Lol. Do you understand mate? Just say you made a mistake the previous time. Its perfectly fine.
I don't recall the previous time or its relevance to this thread, but if I did make that mistake no problem, I am human and prone to error just like the author of the Quran in my opinion.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
1. Doesn't matter, if it was presented as God's authorship and Muhammad as the Messenger of God then it would be natural to ask God to explain through Muhammad.
2. I consider Muhammad to be author of the Quran.

Doesnt matter is not an answer. But of course, you dont wish to answer.

It was presented as Gods authorship. Thats a fact. So lets say you are looking for an explanation "through Muhammed", you would go back to the Quran because it came "through Muhammed". Its quite simple.

Why don't we start with a concrete example of a hadith attributed to Muhammad.

From Sahih al-Bukhari 304 - Menstrual Periods - كتاب الحيض - Sunnah.com - Sayings and Teachings of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه و سلم)

'Sahih al-Bukhari 304
Narrated Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) of `Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."'

IF this oral tradition went all the way back to Muhammad (yes there is no way of knowing that) THEN we would have an example of Muhammad explaining (in this case unsolicited) some verses of the Quran. It is relevant to the point that Muhammad may possibly have been the original interpreter of the Quran.

Nice. thanks. So tell me, which one do you take to consider the validity of the ahadith or in order to make it Sarih? Is it Mathn or Isnad?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes I understand, I just don't see why this requires more women than men. Men take leave due to reasons as well.

So what you are saying is that men "could take" is equivalent to "women have to take"? Very nice.

I don't recall the previous time or its relevance to this thread, but if I did make that mistake no problem, I am human and prone to error just like the author of the Quran in my opinion.

Yeah. See, what you have done is not accept a mistake or an error on your part. You have used that sentence as an excuse to insult the Quran and its author because you are in love with insulting it. Of course, if the thread was about a mouse or an ant still you would use it to insult this theology, but now even an irrelevant sentence you are using for it. Good going.

So obviously you had double standards and you just said in your opinion, but refused to accept blatant kindergarten grammar when told at one point, but of course in this case since you intend not to, you will not accept this is a dual too. So, its just hypocrisy. Good going again.

Stay Safe. :)
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Doesnt matter is not an answer. But of course, you dont wish to answer.

It was presented as Gods authorship. Thats a fact. So lets say you are looking for an explanation "through Muhammed", you would go back to the Quran because it came "through Muhammed". Its quite simple.
or if you had access to Muhammad Himself as His companions did you could ask God to paraphrase through Him or clarify etc as all of that could be God answering through Muhammad.


Nice. thanks. So tell me, which one do you take to consider the validity of the ahadith or in order to make it Sarih? Is it Mathn or Isnad?
Taking its Matin to determine if Muhammad said it is a dishonest and subjective way of determining if Muhammad said it in my opinion, and any chain of narration is only alleged. As far as making it "Sarih" goes i dont know what the word means, so I don't make it that.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So what you are saying is that men "could take" is equivalent to "women have to take"? Very nice.
No, men "have to take" leave for reasons as well.

Yeah. See, what you have done is not accept a mistake or an error on your part. You have used that sentence as an excuse to insult the Quran and its author because you are in love with insulting it. Of course, if the thread was about a mouse or an ant still you would use it to insult this theology, but now even an irrelevant sentence you are using for it. Good going.
So saying I made a mistake = not insulting but saying Muhammed made a mistake = insulting?

So obviously you had double standards and you just said in your opinion, but refused to accept blatant kindergarten grammar when told at one point, but of course in this case since you intend not to, you will not accept this is a dual too. So, its just hypocrisy. Good going again.

Stay Safe. :)
I have blindly taken your word that it is dual in nature, although since I just have to trust you for that I only hold that position tentatively.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
or if you had access to Muhammad Himself as His companions did you could ask God to paraphrase through Him or clarify etc as all of that could be God answering through Muhammad.

Where did you get that from? Could you please show me in the Quran? After all, this is not "Daniels opinion thread", its about the Quran. So please show in the Quran.

Taking its Matin to determine if Muhammad said it is a dishonest and subjective way of determining if Muhammad said it in my opinion, and any chain of narration is only alleged. As far as making it "Sarih" goes i dont know what the word means, so I don't make it that.

I didnt claim anything. This is your input. You brought in a hadith from Bukhari which is not part of the Quran into this discussion which is of course expected from you. So I didnt make any case of how to determine anything about hadith. It is obvious you have no clue on the subject so I will not try to press you on something you dont know about. But if you propagate it, you should know about it. Otherwise you are just fishing for straws on the internet. Anyway, since you said you dont know what Sarih means, it means unproblematic, secure, unvolatile, more reliable.

So again, do you take the Matn or Sanad? I presume you said something bad about Matn you go with something else right? So which one is your standard. Please explain.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I have blindly taken your word that it is dual in nature,

Why?

You didnt blindly or consciously take another dual word because you wished to prove the Quran wrong. Why now suddenly? Is it because this double standards help you in this particular case?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Where did you get that from? Could you please show me in the Quran? After all, this is not "Daniels opinion thread", its about the Quran. So please show in the Quran.
It is just simple human nature, it assumes only that the companions were human, that they had misunderstandings about the Quran, and that they would have taken these misunderstandings to Muhammad as God's alleged representative. Do you really need the Quran to tell you about human nature? Not everything about the Quran is in the Quran.


I didnt claim anything. This is your input. You brought in a hadith from Bukhari which is not part of the Quran into this discussion which is of course expected from you. So I didnt make any case of how to determine anything about hadith. It is obvious you have no clue on the subject so I will not try to press you on something you dont know about. But if you propagate it, you should know about it. Otherwise you are just fishing for straws on the internet. Anyway, since you said you dont know what Sarih means, it means unproblematic, secure, unvolatile, more reliable.

So again, do you take the Matn or Sanad? I presume you said something bad about Matn you go with something else right? So which one is your standard. Please explain.
To me its reliability is unknown, I brought it up to show the possibility that Muhammad explained the Quran
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
See, adding an insult to another answer is kind of a cheap trick mate. Saying that, you pretended you didnt understand that didnt you? ;)
Insults are often perceived rather than intended, I just said Muhammad made a mistake, it was your choice to feel insulted by it.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
It is just simple human nature, it assumes only that the companions were human, that they had misunderstandings about the Quran, and that they would have taken these misunderstandings to Muhammad as God's alleged representative. Do you really need the Quran to tell you about human nature? Not everything about the Quran is in the Quran.

Assumption right? Fine. So this is a thread about the Quran, not assumption of whatever you like and whatever subject you feel like. So please leave it.

Insults are often perceived rather than intended, I just said Muhammad made a mistake, it was your choice to feel insulted by it.

Again you have misunderstood. For the third time, you added an insult or if you like a "side comment" just to enjoy your statement a bit. Thats pretty cheap.

Does accepting the Quran contains dual words help me prove the Quran wrong in this particular case? If that is the case I'm onto a winner

Maybe that's a wish. So, maybe you believe in some deity.

To me its reliability is unknown, I brought it up to show the possibility that Muhammad explained the Quran

If reliability is "unknown", you are just trying a trick to trick readers. Using criteria you claim "unknown" is just playing to the gallery mate.

So, anything else?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I agree with BilliardsBall. The Qur'an depends on the Bible for its authority. Yet, when attempts are made to find Muhammad in the Bible, he is nowhere to be found. The conclusion must be that he was a false prophet.

So Muhammed is a false prophet because he is not found in the Bible. Is that your standard?

Tell me. Does that answer the OP? Or is this one of your favourite topics?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Assumption right? Fine. So this is a thread about the Quran, not assumption of whatever you like and whatever subject you feel like. So please leave it.
No

Again you have misunderstood. For the third time, you added an insult or if you like a "side comment" just to enjoy your statement a bit. Thats pretty cheap.
I'm not insulting anyone, your perception of insult is just that - your own perception. And calling me cheap is just a character attack because I refuse to bow down in submission to the Quran.

Maybe that's a wish. So, maybe you believe in some deity.
Yes I believe in a God, no Quran required.

If reliability is "unknown", you are just trying a trick to trick readers. Using criteria you claim "unknown" is just playing to the gallery mate.

So, anything else?
You are assuming bad faith here. I'm demonstrating the possibility that Muhammad interpreted the Quran, no tricks required.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Yes I believe in a God, no Quran required.

I didnt say "Quran required". What kind of born need do you have to bring The Islamic God, Islam, Muhammed and Quran into every single topic? Its a problem mate. Thats the reason you had to open this whole thread because you tried it in another thread and no one engaged with your need payoff.

You are assuming bad faith here. I'm demonstrating the possibility that Muhammad interpreted the Quran, no tricks required.

Not relevant.

So is there anything else?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Thats the reason you had to open this whole thread
I didn't have to open this thread, I chose to in response to your request.

Do you feel threatened by the fact that a person can believe in God without the need of the Quran because it sure does seem to bother you to hear it in my opinion.
 
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