Quick questions (well not so quick)

[Curious George]

@Polymath257 Im cutting the conversation. I dont argue with staff.

Umm, polymath hasn't been back in this thread in a while. It looks like you are attributing one of @Milton Platt quotes to him.

 

[Milton Platt]

Umm, polymath hasn't been back in this thread in a while. It looks like you are attributing one of @Milton Platt quotes to him.

Thanks, Carlita.....I do an uh oh every now and then.

 

[Valjean]

If there were good evidence for some God, then of course I'd believe in Him/Her/It. Don't all reasonable people believe what they have good evidence of?
As for utility, I don't see what that has to do with belief. Should we believe whatever is most useful to us? This is strange concept of belief.
A reasonable person believes what the evidence indicates, not what seems useful.

Since I only know the abrahamic god (not jesus), I would ask how does evidence help if you dont see the benefit of having it?

I believe there's a tall tower of naked, cast-iron girders in the middle of Paris. I believe gravity diminishes by the square of the distance from its source. I believe a giant, flightless pigeon once existed on Mauritius.
None of these beliefs benefits me. I believe them because there is strong evidence of each.

I was an atheist, because I had no proof of God. But I found proof and now I am a theist.

There is ample evidence.

Please enlighten us.
It puzzles my why something supported by good evidence would not be universally accepted.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe there's a tall tower of naked, cast-iron girders in the middle of Paris. I believe gravity diminishes by the square of the distance from its source. I believe a giant, fligh

Thats why I said pretending that god exists at the bottom of the OP. A lot of non christians (a lot of not all) dont always read whats written nor think in hypotheticals. I thought it was a christian thing.

 

[Willamena]

What is your understanding of god?

As humans, the world plays out before us. I like Paul Simon's image of seeing the world as if from a window, "from the shelter of my mind..." We like to imagine what plays out happens "out there" and is distinct from the comfortable home on this side of the window, "in here." Few realize that there is no "in here" distinct from "out there," or that having a comfortable "in here" is all that makes "out there" out there. It's all here, and now. Stripping away the barrier that separates the two realms, that separates "me" from "the world," you are left with god. God is everything, and no evidence can point to it that doesn't first point away from it.

 

[dianaiad]

Then you can discuss, criticize, etc whatever....

Atheists, if there was evidence for god's existence, would you change your mind to believe In him?

What are the benefits of evidence in god assuming there is evidence and how would you use these benefits (not consequences) to help you?

Also, if there were evidence and god was love different than how you first interpreted as an former atheist, say god of love would you believe and why?

This is assuming god Does exist not maybe and not kinda.

Please dont speak for atheists as a whole. If it doesnt apply to you, Letter B.

I have a story to tell.

I have posted...and moderated...several religious debate forums. I have something like 25 years of experience at this, since I was doing it when usenet was still the only way to have such debate forums.

In all those forums you can imagine that I have encountered many atheists, who have all stated that if the 'evidence was strong/good/convincing" enough, that they would probably believe.

I really have no reason to doubt them on this.

HOWEVER....I have, two or three times in every forum I've been on, asked the following question:

Dear atheist: if God Himself came down, tapped you on the shoulder and told you that He existed, would you believe? I'm not talking about 'revelation,' or 'personal perceptions,' but that. The factual, actual God coming down to you and telling you that He existed.

I have never once had an atheist say 'yeah, that would do it."

I HAVE had atheists...who were normally very logical and reasonable people...go into all sorts of rants about how no, that wouldn't convince them since BECAUSE since there is no God, such a thing could not happen, and any such visitation would be a hallucination; 'more of gravy than grave' about it.

Not one of 'em could see the problem with that particular attitude. However, I still ask the question from time to time. Perhaps someday some atheist will, if not admit that having the actual, physical God show up in front of him might force him to admit that one existed, would at least realize the particular logical fallacy he was committing, and have a good laugh at himself.

Y'know what? I HAVEN"T asked that question on THIS forum. this is a good thread to do it, though...goes right along with the OP. I would be very interested in the responses of atheists to it in here.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You know. This is a new response for me. Hm. Lets see if this yours truely atheist can answer ypur question.

Dear atheist: if God Himself came down, tapped you on the shoulder and told you that He existed, would you believe? I'm not talking about 'revelation,' or 'personal perceptions,' but that. The factual, actual God coming down to you and telling you that He existed.

Id be scared sh/less first. For me to believe, as in love and worship rather than evidence and saying hello Id have to be forced. Assuming its the christian god, I remember saying Id stand up in front of him and say, "what I believed on earth is what gave me life even if I die for it." There is a quote I like that says, (below)

Y'know what? I HAVEN"T asked that question on THIS forum. this is a good thread to do it, though...goes right along with the OP. I would be very interested in the responses of atheists to it in here.

Good luck!

 

[Polymath257]

I have a story to tell.

I have posted...and moderated...several religious debate forums. I have something like 25 years of experience at this, since I was doing it when usenet was still the only way to have such debate forums.

In all those forums you can imagine that I have encountered many atheists, who have all stated that if the 'evidence was strong/good/convincing" enough, that they would probably believe.

I really have no reason to doubt them on this.

HOWEVER....I have, two or three times in every forum I've been on, asked the following question:

Dear atheist: if God Himself came down, tapped you on the shoulder and told you that He existed, would you believe? I'm not talking about 'revelation,' or 'personal perceptions,' but that. The factual, actual God coming down to you and telling you that He existed.

I have never once had an atheist say 'yeah, that would do it."

I HAVE had atheists...who were normally very logical and reasonable people...go into all sorts of rants about how no, that wouldn't convince them since BECAUSE since there is no God, such a thing could not happen, and any such visitation would be a hallucination; 'more of gravy than grave' about it.

Not one of 'em could see the problem with that particular attitude. However, I still ask the question from time to time. Perhaps someday some atheist will, if not admit that having the actual, physical God show up in front of him might force him to admit that one existed, would at least realize the particular logical fallacy he was committing, and have a good laugh at himself.

Y'know what? I HAVEN"T asked that question on THIS forum. this is a good thread to do it, though...goes right along with the OP. I would be very interested in the responses of atheists to it in here.

I'd say the main problem I would have in your scenario is becoming convinced that the entity that tapped me on the shoulder was, in fact, God. Do I just take this entities word for it? What sort of evidence other than 'tapping me on the shoulder and claiming to be God' is given?

 

[Polymath257]

No need to caps. I wasnt rude I just asked a question. It was misplaced. It was for @Willamena Poly,please ask instead.

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. I was attempting to answer your question, but you asked about a hypothetical without giving enough information about that hypothetical to be able to answer the question.

What benefit there would be to the evidence depends *entirely* on the evidence itself and the type of deity it shows to exist.

So, for example, evidence that I would find convincing that a deity (as in a creator of the universe) exists:

1. A pattern in the cosmic background radiation that is a statistically significant signal and that decodes to the first book of Genesis (or take any other scripture you desire).

2. An entity claiming to be God appearing that makes a pattern of stars appear that produces a written message that everyone on Earth can read in their own language and where the message states the entity is the creator of the universe.

Evidence that some entity created life on Earth:

1. A pattern in the DNA of all organisms that is strictly preserved in all organisms, that when interpreted as a binary signal gives a picture of the sun and solar system.

I can come up with others.

The main point is that any such evidence must be clear, public, and not simply a matter of interpretation.

 

[Polymath257]

@Polymath257 Im cutting the conversation. I dont argue with staff.

Fair enough. I'm sorry if I came across as rude or argumentative. That was not my intention. I was attempting to answer your questions to the best of my ability to imagine the scenario you postulated.

 

[Valjean]

HOWEVER....I have, two or three times in every forum I've been on, asked the following question:

Dear atheist: if God Himself came down, tapped you on the shoulder and told you that He existed, would you believe? I'm not talking about 'revelation,' or 'personal perceptions,' but that. The factual, actual God coming down to you and telling you that He existed.

I have never once had an atheist say 'yeah, that would do it."

I HAVE had atheists...who were normally very logical and reasonable people...go into all sorts of rants about how no, that wouldn't convince them since BECAUSE since there is no God, such a thing could not happen, and any such visitation would be a hallucination; 'more of gravy than grave' about it.

...Y'know what? I HAVEN"T asked that question on THIS forum. this is a good thread to do it, though...goes right along with the OP. I would be very interested in the responses of atheists to it in here.

The thread asks about evidence, and I think any reasonable person presented with good evidence of a thing would accept it.
You propose an actual encounter but don't mention any evidence.
If someone tapped me on the shoulder and made a claim, it wouldn't be the personage who would convince me, but, as in the original scenario, the evidence.
The actual encounter would be immaterial without convincing evidence.

 

[dianaiad]

Well, my streak holds true, and the answers remain consistent, so far.

(grin)

I DID forget to include the one or two atheists who would, if God appeared to them, spit in his eye. (If, that is, He turns out to be the deity associated with a belief system that atheist particularly dislikes). Thank you, Carlita, for reminding me of those.

I have to wonder just how likely that is, though....God being, y'know, God, Creator of the Universe and all, Who I'm quite certain would not conform fully to any human idea about Him. How could He...given the size of His creation? If, of course, one defines "God" as "universe creator."

The only thing I asked about is this: if GOD showed up and tapped you on the shoulder, would that make you believe in Him? Not a hallucination. Not anybody else. No question about Who it is doing the tapping. You know, God.

So far the answers to that question remain the same as every other time I have asked.

One of these days someone will surprise me, but nobody has so far.

What this says to me is that atheists...at least those who answer the question..are just as 'religious' and 'faith based' as any theist. They have their opinions and nothing will change their minds.

I mean, really. GOD shows up. No question. It's GOD....and that won't do the job?

If that won't, what would? I mean, really. If THAT doesn't do it, is there anything at all that would?

 

[dianaiad]

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. I was attempting to answer your question, but you asked about a hypothetical without giving enough information about that hypothetical to be able to answer the question.

What benefit there would be to the evidence depends *entirely* on the evidence itself and the type of deity it shows to exist.

So, for example, evidence that I would find convincing that a deity (as in a creator of the universe) exists:

1. A pattern in the cosmic background radiation that is a statistically significant signal and that decodes to the first book of Genesis (or take any other scripture you desire).

2. An entity claiming to be God appearing that makes a pattern of stars appear that produces a written message that everyone on Earth can read in their own language and where the message states the entity is the creator of the universe.

Pixar studios could do that. One doesn't require God...

And would you mind telling me how a special effects thing done by an entity who claimed to be God would convince you (I wouldn't be convinced by that, btw)....but having God Himself, unmistakably God Himself, come down and appear to you wouldn't?

Do you need to have other people get the proof before you will trust your own senses?

That's a tad bit circular. What if all those other people insist that YOU accept the proof before THEY will?

One last thing; this IS the Creator of the Universe we are talking about here. Should, of course, there be such an Entity. Why should He (or She or It) worry about passing YOUR test?

Me? I'm not quite arrogant enough to make demands like that. My only question is; if God...unmistakably God...showed Himself to you, would that be sufficient proof for you? No making Him (or Her or It) jump through hoops of your invention; just...God. Showing up.

 

[Polymath257]

Pixar studios could do that. One doesn't require God...

And would you mind telling me how a special effects thing done by an entity who claimed to be God would convince you (I wouldn't be convinced by that, btw)....but having God Himself, unmistakably God Himself, come down and appear to you wouldn't?

The issue for me is how that entity identifies itself as 'unmistakably God'. I would, at the very least, need some sort of cosmic, public effect.

No, Pixar could NOT do what I was asking.

Do you need to have other people get the proof before you will trust your own senses?

It helps to know I am not being self-delusional.

That's a tad bit circular. What if all those other people insist that YOU accept the proof before THEY will?

No, I don't need them to be *convinced*, only that they experience the same things I am.

One last thing; this IS the Creator of the Universe we are talking about here. Should, of course, there be such an Entity. Why should He (or She or It) worry about passing YOUR test?

No reason at all. But then, why should it be concerned about my lack of belief?

Me? I'm not quite arrogant enough to make demands like that. My only question is; if God...unmistakably God...showed Himself to you, would that be sufficient proof for you? No making Him (or Her or It) jump through hoops of your invention; just...God. Showing up.

Again, the issue is what makes an entity 'unmistakably God'. part of that requirement is public and cosmic evidence.

 

[rocala]

If external evidence was presented, I would not believe in god.

Should you not wait and see what the evidence actually is before making such a statement?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Should you not wait and see what the evidence actually is before making such a statement?

No. The idea of the god Im familar with is not someone Id choose to worship. Hindu gods maybe. Depends. I dont want to meet every stranger I hear and read about. I dont see god differently.

 

[Valjean]

Well, my streak holds true, and the answers remain consistent, so far.
(grin)
...The only thing I asked about is this: if GOD showed up and tapped you on the shoulder, would that make you believe in Him? Not a hallucination. Not anybody else. No question about Who it is doing the tapping. You know, God.

So far the answers to that question remain the same as every other time I have asked.

Your question is circular. You ask weather, if we met someone who was unquestionably God, would we still question God's existence. The answer is structured in the question.

I'm still curious, though, about why God's reality would be unquestionable. It seems like an epistemically unsupported premise. Most of us have no life experiences of such unsupported and undemonstrable axioms.

What this says to me is that atheists...at least those who answer the question..are just as 'religious' and 'faith based' as any theist. They have their opinions and nothing will change their minds.

Now I question your claim to have argued extensively with atheists. What sort of "faith" could there be in atheism, what sort of "opinion" would be common to atheists?
Isn't atheism a lack of faith; a non-opinion?

I mean, really. GOD shows up. No question. It's GOD....and that won't do the job?

If that won't, what would? I mean, really. If THAT doesn't do it, is there anything at all that would?

Of course that would do it, but, again, the conclusion is included in the question. Would your question even be a question?

 

[rocala]

No. The idea of the god Im familar with is not someone Id choose to worship. Hindu gods maybe. Depends. I dont want to meet every stranger I hear and read about. I dont see god differently.

Hmmmm not an answer that I expected. My question was not about familiarity or worship but your use of the term evidence.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmmmm not an answer that I expected. My question was not about familiarity or worship but your use of the term evidence.

If I had evidence, it wouldnt be different than reading and hearing (evidence) a stranger and met each because I read they existed. Even if I had evidence, the god Im familar with isnt one Id choose tp worship.

 

[dianaiad]

Your question is circular. You ask weather, if we met someone who was unquestionably God, would we still question God's existence. The answer is structured in the question.

You would think so, wouldn't you? I did that on purpose.

I'm still curious, though, about why God's reality would be unquestionable. It seems like an epistemically unsupported premise. Most of us have no life experiences of such unsupported and undemonstrable axioms.

Now I question your claim to have argued extensively with atheists. What sort of "faith" could there be in atheism, what sort of "opinion" would be common to atheists?
Isn't atheism a lack of faith; a non-opinion?

Nope.

Well, at its base it is, of course.

But the atheists who have given their answers to my question go a little further than simple non-belief. They have gone from "I don't believe there is a deity" to "I believe/know that there is no deity."

That second statement, being a positive claim, (and JUST as impossible to prove as is the statement 'there is a God') requires belief without objective evidence.

Of course that would do it, but, again, the conclusion is included in the question. Would your question even be a question?

You are quite right; the question as formed IS circular...intentionally so, and y'know what? In nearly 25 years you are the first to 'catch' and comment on, that. Everybody else, and I do mean everybody else, tries really hard to wiggle out of the only possible response.

In my very unofficial opinion, I THINK it's because those atheists who respond are so caught up in their own non-belief....or rather, their own belief in the non-existence of deity, that they absolutely do not want to consider the possibility, however minute, that God COULD do that, or that there is a God Who MIGHT do that.

I rather like the ones who...while still not getting the 'trap" being set, tell me they want to punch Him in the nose for not being...whatever they think God should be.