Questions for my Gnostic Friends!

[Bishka]

Hey ya'll.

I have a couple of books, and I started reading "The Nag Hammadi Library" yesterday, which is edited by James M. Robinson.

I actually started reading the Apocryphon of John, because Ashley had a thread on it and I sort of wanted to see what it was about.

So, I have some questions:

Do you actually believe there is a heaven?

Do you believe that this world is inherently evil and why or why not(spiritually evil, matterly evil, physically evil, etc.)?

Who is Yaldabaoth and why is he important and can we realate him to anything in Christianity?

This quote, "Man comes to life when Yaldabaoth is tricked into breathing light-power into him. Thus begins the continous struggle betweeen the powers of ligh and the powers of darkenss for the possession of the divine particles in man. The evil power put man in a material body to keep him imprisioned, and also created women and sexual desire to spread the particles of light and make escape more difficult."

-What are those divine particles?
-Could this be saying that having children will make it harder for us to return to our Heavenly home?


Another quote,
"Only those who possess this knowledge and have lived aestic lives can return to the realm of light; the others are reincarnated until they also come to a saving knowledge."

-Do you personally believe that you will be reincarnated if you don't have that 'saving knowledge'?

When Arimanius approaches John, as saws to him "Where is your master [whom] you followed?" Has Christ already died by this time? Because John said to Arimanius "He had gone to the [place] from which he came." Does this mean heaven or just fromt he city of Nazerene?

What's an aeon?

What is the symbolism or what does the youth, the old man and the servant mean in the vision John sees?

What does the voice that John hears saying, "I an the one who is [with you (pl)] always. I [am the Father], I am the Mother, I am the Son" ? Why isn't daughter included in this, or is it just my book?

Who is this voice that says this, is it Christ or is it a higher being?

Also, what does Against Heresies by Ireabaes have to say about this (if you know)?

Oh, one last one, do you take this literally or figuartivley, and if you take it(the Creation story) figuartivley, how does that work?


Sorry so many questions, I just started reading and I'm curious! :flower:

 

[Buttons*]

I'd be happy to answer those questions a bit later when i get home so just wait for it.

Halcyon will probably have some answers too. Good times!

 

[Bishka]

I'd be happy to answer those questions a bit later when i get home so just wait for it.

Halcyon will probably have some answers too. Good times!

No problem, I thought you may be a bit excited (hopefully) when I started asking questions.

 

[Halcyon]

Hey ya'll.

I have a couple of books, and I started reading "The Nag Hammadi Library" yesterday, which is edited by James M. Robinson.

Cool!

I actually started reading the Apocryphon of John, because Ashley had a thread on it and I sort of wanted to see what it was about.

So, I have some questions:

I'll answer them as best i can, although my answers will be different to Ashley's, there is no doctrine for us to follow so our beliefs are entirely personal.

Do you actually believe there is a heaven?

Personally i believe in different realms and different realities which might be heaven-like. But no, i don't think there is a heaven we go to when we die.

Do you believe that this world is inherently evil and why or why not(spiritually evil, matterly evil, physically evil, etc.)?

I don't think it is evil, but i do believe it is very powerful at blinding us to the truth. Everything here seems very separate and distinct, when in reality it is not. Also, we get easily sucked into material wants and desires when they are not important.

Who is Yaldabaoth and why is he important and can we realate him to anything in Christianity?

Yaldabaoth is the god of the old testament, he is the angry, jealous, murderous being intent on keeping us blind to the truth. Later Gnostics such as the Cathars saw him as the Christian Devil. The God of Jesus is much higher.

This quote, "Man comes to life when Yaldabaoth is tricked into breathing light-power into him. Thus begins the continous struggle betweeen the powers of ligh and the powers of darkenss for the possession of the divine particles in man. The evil power put man in a material body to keep him imprisioned, and also created women and sexual desire to spread the particles of light and make escape more difficult."

-What are those divine particles?
-Could this be saying that having children will make it harder for us to return to our Heavenly home?

The divine particles are the spirit of God, that exist in all humans (and in my opinion all living things). It is from this spark that Gnosis comes. If you like, its a direct link to God.

I can't find this exact passage, so a assume its different in my text, or i overlooked it.
However, where it says about Yaldabaoth creating women and sex as evil acts, this is contradicted in other texts - women are normally seen in a good light, equal to men.
Some Gnostic sects did teach against procreation as they believed it wrong to trap more divine sparks in this world.
Personally though, i don't believe it works like that, i have quite liberal beliefs when it comes to the evilness of this world.

Another quote,
"Only those who possess this knowledge and have lived aestic lives can return to the realm of light; the others are reincarnated until they also come to a saving knowledge."

-Do you personally believe that you will be reincarnated if you don't have that 'saving knowledge'?

I don't know, its a possibility. I'd prefer to reunite with God as Jesus did, but that means finding Gnosis first.

When Arimanius approaches John, as saws to him "Where is your master [whom] you followed?" Has Christ already died by this time? Because John said to Arimanius "He had gone to the [place] from which he came." Does this mean heaven or just fromt he city of Nazerene?

Neither, he has returned to God and become fully one with God again, as we all eventually will. Dust to dust, ashes to ashes and spirit to spirit.

What's an aeon?

An aspect of the divine mind of God, like Sophia is the wisdom of God. Aeons are beings in their own right, but are also totally at one with God. They are also metaphor for how the human mind acts and its relation to God.

What is the symbolism or what does the youth, the old man and the servant mean in the vision John sees?

I have child instead of servant, but yeah; to me its saying that the being that speaks is outside of time, thus it has no age but is all ages.

What does the voice that John hears saying, "I an the one who is [with you (pl)] always. I [am the Father], I am the Mother, I am the Son" ? Why isn't daughter included in this, or is it just my book?

My translation has child, so it could be of either sex. But even with son, its just saying that the One/God is all things - the origin of everything as the Father/Mother, but also the result, the child or Son.

It is the One/God, the highest 'entity'.
I've been thinking of a way of explaining it from a Mormon perspective actually.

Remember a while ago I annoyed you all with lots of questions?
Well, from them i learnt that there is the belief in the LDS church that God was once a man, and that he was created by his own God, and that his God was inturn once a man created by yet another God etc etc.
Well, The One - the God we believe in - is the very first step in that lineage, the source of all things that have ever existed.

Also, what does Against Heresies by Ireabaes have to say about this (if you know)?

I haven't read Irenaeous, but i know his opinion on us.
He would have said that the Apocryphon of John is a warping of the orthodox Christian myth to suit our heretical views, thus it is totally without merit and is in fact evil.
He may be right in that the ancient Gnostics did re-write the myths in such a way as to get across our views of the world to a Christian audience, we can't know. Personally i don't think it matters though, i don't see evil i see truth and understanding.

Oh, one last one, do you take this literally or figuartivley, and if you take it(the Creation story) figuartivley, how does that work?

I take it both ways. I personally believe everything you can imagine and even more you can't exists, and that it all exists within the body of God. I believe in the existance of the Aeons and of Yaldabaoth, but i also see them as mythological characters used to explain concepts.

I don't believe any Gnostic text was a direct revelation from God, so i don't believe anything actually happened as it is written - not in this universe anyway. But i believe it is still relevant and helpful when we attempt to understand the nature of this universe.

Sorry so many questions, I just started reading and I'm curious! :flower:

Don't be sorry, we're always happy to answer questions, not that we have all the answers mind.

 

[Bishka]

So who is the God of the New Testament. I haven't even gotten a full pae in the Apochryphon yet, so I'm still new to many terms you are presenting!

So basically this 'main god' so to speak is sort of like what the LDS believe in?

 

[Bishka]

Okay, those divine particles. Would that be something like the LDS believe that our spirits/intelligences were made out of?

 

[Halcyon]

So who is the God of the New Testament. I haven't even gotten a full pae in the Apochryphon yet, so I'm still new to many terms you are presenting!

The God of the NT is the God of Jesus, the One God, the sources of all things. But Jesus was also a Jew, so his beliefs would have incorporated many Jewish aspects as well.

So basically this 'main god' so to speak is sort of like what the LDS believe in?

No, not really. Although i can't tell you what sort of god you believe in.

From what i know your God is very human, to the point of having a human-like body. He was once a man and worshipped his own God, he has a wife. He created this world and humanity as specifically separate beings.

Our God is nothing like a man; no body, no gender; no thoughts, emotions or mind that is anything like a human. It is more like the Tao.

 

[Halcyon]

Okay, those divine particles. Would that be something like the LDS believe that our spirits/intelligences were made out of?

Yes, something like that. Although we believe the soul and spirit are two different things.

 

[Buttons*]

It is more like the Tao.

.... gee, that sounds familiar

 

[Bishka]

Yes, something like that. Although we believe the soul and spirit are two different things.

Could you explain that to me? How is the soul and spirit different? Sorry, I feel stupid.

 

[Halcyon]

Could you explain that to me? How is the soul and spirit different? Sorry, I feel stupid.

No need to feel stupid, this is a very Gnostic concept.

The spirit is immortal and is essentially a little bit of God, unchanging and unchangable. The soul is the personality, it is linked to the body more directly and changes over time, it might also be destroyed at death along with the body.

 

[Bishka]

No need to feel stupid, this is a very Gnostic concept.

The spirit is immortal and is essentially a little bit of God, unchanging and unchangable. The soul is the personality, it is linked to the body more directly and changes over time, it might also be destroyed at death along with the body.

That makes sense. I may have more questions. So I'll post them on this thread as I read. I'm reading a page or so at a time, because it's really hard for me to grasp the concepts and ideas

 

[Buttons*]

That makes sense. I may have more questions. So I'll post them on this thread as I read. I'm reading a page or so at a time, because it's really hard for me to grasp the concepts and ideas

*nods* they're all very challenging concepts.... sorry if its a bit difficult to get through... (the first time i read it, i had to keep looking in the back of the book for footnotes )

 

[Bishka]

*nods* they're all very challenging concepts.... sorry if its a bit difficult to get through... (the first time i read it, i had to keep looking in the back of the book for footnotes )

You excited I'm reading it Ashley?

Currently, I'm reading the

The Book of Mormon - 2nd Nephi
The Bible - Old Testament - Genesis
Nag Hammadi Library - Apochryphon of John

I have a lot on my plate.

 

[Buttons*]

Do you actually believe there is a heaven?

I dont believe so... and my beliefs on the "after life" are a bit on the confusing side... so I'll save that for another time perhaps *smiles*

Do you believe that this world is inherently evil and why or why not(spiritually evil, matterly evil, physically evil, etc.)?

I dont believe that anything is "evil" but anything that keeps you ignorant to the "truth" (for lack of a better word) is not of the realm of the One. (I speak of man-made things, I dont believe anything that was created by, or in nature could possibly be evil or not bring you closer to the source. I mean, everything came into being through the One...oh i could just go on and on...)

Who is Yaldabaoth and why is he important and can we realate him to anything in Christianity?

what Paul said on this is correct in my eyes.

This quote, "Man comes to life when Yaldabaoth is tricked into breathing light-power into him. Thus begins the continous struggle betweeen the powers of ligh and the powers of darkenss for the possession of the divine particles in man. The evil power put man in a material body to keep him imprisioned, and also created women and sexual desire to spread the particles of light and make escape more difficult."

-What are those divine particles?
-Could this be saying that having children will make it harder for us to return to our Heavenly home?

I believe Paul is correct on those particles. As he already mentioned, women were equal to men in the Gnostic practices as well as the belief itself. The male and female complete one another. *smiles* Heavenly deities are defined as both male and female, because it was easier for people to grasp the ideas of duality... or completion.. think yin/yang.

"Some Gnostic sects did teach against procreation as they believed it wrong to trap more divine sparks in this world." .... this is one of the reasons I dont want to have children... I dont take most of the Gnostic stuff literally AT ALL, however, I really do see truth within this belief for various reasons.

Another quote,
"Only those who possess this knowledge and have lived aestic lives can return to the realm of light; the others are reincarnated until they also come to a saving knowledge."

-Do you personally believe that you will be reincarnated if you don't have that 'saving knowledge'?

There's nothing to attain really... it already exists, if you open your heart to realize it....*smiles*
This part I dont take literally at all... which would go back to my view on the afterlife...

When Arimanius approaches John, as saws to him "Where is your master [whom] you followed?" Has Christ already died by this time? Because John said to Arimanius "He had gone to the [place] from which he came." Does this mean heaven or just fromt he city of Nazerene?

What's an aeon?

What is the symbolism or what does the youth, the old man and the servant mean in the vision John sees

Paul explained these beautifully.

What does the voice that John hears saying, "I an the one who is [with you (pl)] always. I [am the Father], I am the Mother, I am the Son" ? Why isn't daughter included in this, or is it just my book?

The son is supposed to be Child. Paul covered this too...

Who is this voice that says this, is it Christ or is it a higher being?

Also, what does Against Heresies by Ireabaes have to say about this (if you know)?

Paul got these as well

Oh, one last one, do you take this literally or figuartivley, and if you take it(the Creation story) figuartivley, how does that work?

This could be where my dearest Paul and I differ a bit. *smiles*

I take it all as an allegory for understanding the heart/mind. It's the EXACT same (in my opinion) as the way the Tao Te Ching explains the Tao. Its not an intellectual understanding.... cant really be expressed in words... its just too amazing.... *smiles* (and truthfully, I havent even really tapped into it much!!!) This, again, is solely my take on it...

Sorry so many questions, I just started reading and I'm curious! :flower:

We're delighted you have questions for us. Of course, our opinions and differing perspectives may be confusing for you, but hopefully it shows you the diversity that can be had for a common goal. *smiles* If you have any more questions, never fear to ask, just know that we dont know the "truth" we just have faith. *smiles*

 

[Bishka]

I dont believe that anything is "evil" but anything that keeps you ignorant to the "truth" (for lack of a better word) is not of the realm of the One. (I speak of man-made things, I dont believe anything that was created by, or in nature could possibly be evil or not bring you closer to the source. I mean, everything came into being through the One...oh i could just go on and on...)

Yes, that was REALLY confusing, but I'm sure if I keep asking I'll sort of understand what you are talking about.

Anywho. So a question about what you said here. So what sort of things keep you from the 'truth' and what is this 'truth'. Could it be any religious teachings that are good or is it only Gnostic? Thanks Ashley! I appreciate you answering my questions, I'm actually getting off for the night, so I'll check this thread in the morning!

 

[Buttons*]

You excited I'm reading it Ashley?

Currently, I'm reading the

The Book of Mormon - 2nd Nephi
The Bible - Old Testament - Genesis
Nag Hammadi Library - Apochryphon of John

I have a lot on my plate.

that's a TON to have on your plate sweetie.

Firstly, NEVER feel stupid for asking questions. How can you learn if you never ask? Especailly with something as difficult as the Apochryphon of John! I dont even really grasp half the things I read... I convert everything into allegory... but that;s a WHOLE other thing to tackle.

Yes, i am really excited that you've taken an interest in it. *big smile*

 

[Buttons*]

Yes, that was REALLY confusing, but I'm sure if I keep asking I'll sort of understand what you are talking about.

Honestly... i dont know if you will... but its okay *smiles*

Anywho. So a question about what you said here. So what sort of things keep you from the 'truth' and what is this 'truth'. Could it be any religious teachings that are good or is it only Gnostic?

ANYTHING that brings you closer to the Source has merit. *smiles* Not just gnostic writings, they're just the scriptures that I, personally, identify most with. Gnostics are cool because they are basically the eastern thought of western religion. (from my perspective) You can be a gnostic anything, really.

Of course, i have a tendency to use "mystic" and "gnostic" interchangably...

 

[gnostic]

I think of the Apochryphon of John as being outlandish, cryptic, thought-provoking. It basically turn the Genesis upside-down, inside-out.

But I also found this book rather refreshing, because it dwell less on the sins. In Paulinian Christianity, Eve was a perputrator of the Original Sin, thereby Paul and his later advocates (the Church Fathers in the succeeding centuries) blame women for our world's problem, instead of holding themselves for their own sins.

The Gnostics, on the other hand, turned Eve into a heroine. If we seriously need to reach heaven, which in this case, called pleroma (I may have spelt this incorrectly), the human's original home, then we must have wisdom (gnosis) to see right from wrong. She saw more clearly than Adam, who was blinded by Yaldabaoth's fallen power.

You can visit Dark Mirrors of Heaven. I have tried to summarise the Gnostic creation, I have tried to use other Gnostic texts with The Apocryphon of John, such as the The Hypostasis of the Archons and On the Origin of the World.

If you thought Apocryphon of John was confusing, Becky, then you'll probabably want to postpone reading The Gospel of the Egyptian.

 

[Bishka]

I think of the Apochryphon of John as being outlandish, cryptic, thought-provoking. It basically turn the Genesis upside-down, inside-out.

But I also found this book rather refreshing, because it dwell less on the sins. In Paulinian Christianity, Eve was a perputrator of the Original Sin, thereby Paul and his later advocates (the Church Fathers in the succeeding centuries) blame women for our world's problem, instead of holding themselves for their own sins.

The Gnostics, on the other hand, turned Eve into a heroine. If we seriously need to reach heaven, which in this case, called pleroma (I may have spelt this incorrectly), the human's original home, then we must have wisdom (gnosis) to see right from wrong. She saw more clearly than Adam, who was blinded by Yaldabaoth's fallen power.

You can visit Dark Mirrors of Heaven. I have tried to summarise the Gnostic creation, I have tried to use other Gnostic texts with The Apocryphon of John, such as the The Hypostasis of the Archons and On the Origin of the World.

If you thought Apocryphon of John was confusing, Becky, then you'll probabably want to postpone reading The Gospel of the Egyptian.

What's funny is that the LDS see Eve as a bit of a 'heroine' also. We don't blame her for taking the fruit, we knew she was supposed to take it.