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Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

No room for questions in heaven. How will you ask ?

The above is a link to where this questioning started, but in order to prevent de-railing the thread, this thread has been created for anyone at all, especially Bahai people or anyone who deems themselves informed about Bahai or even just logical people, to contribute and think about and answer some of these questions.

The questions are as follows (but more may be brought up throughout the thread, and anyone else can also ask questions here about Bahai things or to me or whatever).

I currently do not consider myself a Bahai or follower of the Bab or Baha'u'llah, and will add that I may be somewhat prejudiced or suspicious of practically anything at all coming out of Persia and in relation to the Persian culture, all the way back through the Zoroastrian times even. The thing I dislike Persians for most, is their part in the creation and proliferation of the Hadiths. I don't like Persian people too much, even though some of the women can be good looking to me, but basically don't like anything about them at all overall usually (and also find that a lot of them might be crazy too), so that is to say I'm clearly prejudiced. At the time of the Zoroastrian things, they called the things from India demonic supposedly (naming as Daevas words like Sarva and Indra), and even said odd things about God in various ways like how they attributed to Ahriman the movement of things or change basically, which I attribute to God. Then they went on to make a big fuss about "the family of the Prophet" and mystical qualities and caste systems and blah blah blah, and they were killing lizards like crazy too, just not a fan of these people or their culture or their land or their ideas, even though they get lots of praise. Their influence on the religions, including Judaism, also seems to have been a potentially bad one as well. So, being quite hostile from the get go to this group of people, the idea of a charismatic leader coming along and making any claim, I'm already extremely skeptical, because I don't respect them at all, and already consider them liars from long ago, from the Zoroastrian times, into their Shia split times, finding their Shia traditions to be vile and obnoxious and even blasphemous, and then not being fond also of the Bahai movement either, as a kind of Westernizing suck up type movement, that is supported and funded by groups I don't like (like Zionists) to try to create some kind of trouble for Muslims (who I'm not particularly fond of either).

So, getting that out of the way, this is a great opportunity for people who are knowledgeable of the Bahai religion and history and apologetics to teach everyone who visits this thread all about the religion and put at ease their questions. It is unlikely to move me, except that the patience and courtesy and gentleness that people treat me with here in patiently answering my questions will likely leave me with the opinion that the Bahai are nice people (in fact, I already have this opinion of them, as they are decent and simple folks as far as I've seen and my family has been friends with Bahai people as well).

So to start off:

1. Why should Bab and Baha'u'llah be believed? While we're at it, why should any of these people be believed? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Paul, all the rest, whoever you can think of, why?

2. What significant update to Islam was required when the Muslims seem to still be functioning as Muslims along with the Qur'an.

3. Is the Qur'an to be believed, or is it a lie?

4. What are the changes to the Qur'anic laws by the Bab and to the Bab's laws by Baha'u'llah, and why was such an update necessary between these two in such an extremely small amount of time?

5. How are Bahai not just some type of Muslims?

6. Who are all the Prophets, and what is the point of calling them anything or giving them any significance if they are to be disregarded and are outdated anyway? Like, who cares about them if all that matters really is the Baha'u'llah and what Baha'u'llah says?

7. How do we know these people aren't just like any "Charismatic Cult Leader"?

8. The Mormons or the LDS Church (Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints or whatever) call their organizations leaders Prophets and have a chain of new ones leading back to Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and they keep updating and saying that this is the old stuff and here is the new stuff, is there any similarity to that and the Bahai thinking, and why should the Mormons not be believed and followed? They too are a wealthy organized religion with fancy looking buildings and other things.

9. What does it take to be a Bahai, and 9.2. how can one be a Bahai, and 9.3. why should one be a Bahai? 9.4. What is the expected fate of non-Bahai? 9.5. What is expected to happen to the devout Muslims? 9.6. So what then makes this addition necessary or worth the risk?

10. What is the population of the Bahai, their true number, in your estimates (taking out the nominal and not serious Bahai, but actual practitioners).

11. Please give the daily life and routine and rituals and activities of the best and most ideal Bahai person, 11.2. and if you do this, and 11.3. if not, why not? 11.4. Are you failing? 11.5. You aren't afraid or don't care much or what?

12. What is your personal story with Bahai, or if you are a Bahai, how did you come to Bahai or come to believe in it, and 12.2. what do you think of the Qur'an and 12.3. Why aren't you just a follower of the Qur'an?

13. What factor makes one or leads one to be a true Bahai and what is believed to be the factor that makes people deny it or defy it or reject it or be skeptical of it in the genuine views of the Bahai?

14. I view Bahai religion as a degradation or inferior version of Qur'anic Islam, can you clarify or correct this view and show how it might actually be an improvement on the Qur'anic religion or differs from it in such a way in its teachings and practices? I currently find the Muslims to be more devout, more physically clean, more disciplined, etc, so superior in every way to the Bahai which seems like its just a deflated and luke-warm Western pandering version of Islam.

15. What are the Bahai views on the actual detailed description of God (what is God, in detail, down to every detail you can muster up), angels, demons, jinn, whatever, the whole cosmology, the whole belief system in detail, magic, mysticism, symbols, all that you can discuss which give a clear picture of the Bahai worldview and cosmology and locations and history and bestiary and all that.

16. How can one come to respect, admire, or follow Baha'u'llah if one doesn't have much respect for any human beings, or for Baha'u'llah's supposed predecessors, or Muhammed, or Jesus, or Moses, or even God? 16.2. How much belief or practice is required to be a true Bahai or attain God's reward, and what is that Reward anyway and in return for what exactly and why?

17. What is the opposite of a Bahai (sometimes this helps clarify what a Bahai is through the example of what is not a Bahai or what the diametric opposite might be). 17.2. Who, if anyone, are the bad guys or groups, or list all the major bad guys or groups, like even Satan if Satan plays a role at all in the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

18. The statistical numbers of other groups are higher, what does this mean? Has the mission failed, or is it only getting started? It seems doubtful at this rate or with these numbers that Bahai religion will be a major force in 1000 years. 18.2. What accounts for the slaying of Bab and Baha'u'llah if these were slain (as compared to Muhammed, who was not slain, or Moses, who was not slain), and the comparatively small following of the Bahai faith as compared to variations of Islam and Christianity?

19. What are the strongest appeals and apologetics for Bahai religion and why one should follow it and perform each of the required or recommended rituals or tasks?

20. How was your mood and thought process before and after Bahai religion was taken on as your personal religion, and what aspects of it do you personally perceive as those which make the most beneficial difference in your thinking or practices?

21. What are some resources or all the best resources to read all the important or just all of the available and translated Bahai literature online, and what is the value if any of doing so, and what are the bare minimum requirements or recommendations for reading (how much does one need to know, and also if there is any stuff people should avoid reading or which when they read they become really difficult or skeptical).

22. Where is God right now, as I'm writing this, in your beliefs or understandings, and what would God think if I thought poorly of Baha'u'llah or Muhammed or something? Or even God? 22.2.What would thinking poorly of God be exactly in your opinion?

Lots of questions!

23. What is the Bahai organization hierarchy and system and who are the leaders and bosses and why?
24. Have you heard of the Ismaeli leadership structure? Can you compare it to them or the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses?

25. What aspects of your personal history and background do you think really might be responsible for your accepting Bahai religion as your religion (or rejecting it, if a non-Bahai answers).
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You could post this on an ex-Bahai forum as well. They will offer a differing perspective, and can be very knowledgeable. Some were Baha'i for 30 years or so, and did a lot of research.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
No room for questions in heaven. How will you ask ?

The above is a link to where this questioning started, but in order to prevent de-railing the thread, this thread has been created for anyone at all, especially Bahai people or anyone who deems themselves informed about Bahai or even just logical people, to contribute and think about and answer some of these questions.

The questions are as follows (but more may be brought up throughout the thread, and anyone else can also ask questions here about Bahai things or to me or whatever).

I currently do not consider myself a Bahai or follower of the Bab or Baha'u'llah, and will add that I may be somewhat prejudiced or suspicious of practically anything at all coming out of Persia and in relation to the Persian culture, all the way back through the Zoroastrian times even. The thing I dislike Persians for most, is their part in the creation and proliferation of the Hadiths. I don't like Persian people too much, even though some of the women can be good looking to me, but basically don't like anything about them at all overall usually (and also find that a lot of them might be crazy too), so that is to say I'm clearly prejudiced. At the time of the Zoroastrian things, they called the things from India demonic supposedly (naming as Daevas words like Sarva and Indra), and even said odd things about God in various ways like how they attributed to Ahriman the movement of things or change basically, which I attribute to God. Then they went on to make a big fuss about "the family of the Prophet" and mystical qualities and caste systems and blah blah blah, and they were killing lizards like crazy too, just not a fan of these people or their culture or their land or their ideas, even though they get lots of praise. Their influence on the religions, including Judaism, also seems to have been a potentially bad one as well. So, being quite hostile from the get go to this group of people, the idea of a charismatic leader coming along and making any claim, I'm already extremely skeptical, because I don't respect them at all, and already consider them liars from long ago, from the Zoroastrian times, into their Shia split times, finding their Shia traditions to be vile and obnoxious and even blasphemous, and then not being fond also of the Bahai movement either, as a kind of Westernizing suck up type movement, that is supported and funded by groups I don't like (like Zionists) to try to create some kind of trouble for Muslims (who I'm not particularly fond of either).

So, getting that out of the way, this is a great opportunity for people who are knowledgeable of the Bahai religion and history and apologetics to teach everyone who visits this thread all about the religion and put at ease their questions. It is unlikely to move me, except that the patience and courtesy and gentleness that people treat me with here in patiently answering my questions will likely leave me with the opinion that the Bahai are nice people (in fact, I already have this opinion of them, as they are decent and simple folks as far as I've seen and my family has been friends with Bahai people as well).

So to start off:

1. Why should Bab and Baha'u'llah be believed? While we're at it, why should any of these people be believed? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Paul, all the rest, whoever you can think of, why?

2. What significant update to Islam was required when the Muslims seem to still be functioning as Muslims along with the Qur'an.

3. Is the Qur'an to be believed, or is it a lie?

4. What are the changes to the Qur'anic laws by the Bab and to the Bab's laws by Baha'u'llah, and why was such an update necessary between these two in such an extremely small amount of time?

5. How are Bahai not just some type of Muslims?

6. Who are all the Prophets, and what is the point of calling them anything or giving them any significance if they are to be disregarded and are outdated anyway? Like, who cares about them if all that matters really is the Baha'u'llah and what Baha'u'llah says?

7. How do we know these people aren't just like any "Charismatic Cult Leader"?

8. The Mormons or the LDS Church (Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints or whatever) call their organizations leaders Prophets and have a chain of new ones leading back to Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and they keep updating and saying that this is the old stuff and here is the new stuff, is there any similarity to that and the Bahai thinking, and why should the Mormons not be believed and followed? They too are a wealthy organized religion with fancy looking buildings and other things.

9. What does it take to be a Bahai, and 9.2. how can one be a Bahai, and 9.3. why should one be a Bahai? 9.4. What is the expected fate of non-Bahai? 9.5. What is expected to happen to the devout Muslims? 9.6. So what then makes this addition necessary or worth the risk?

10. What is the population of the Bahai, their true number, in your estimates (taking out the nominal and not serious Bahai, but actual practitioners).

11. Please give the daily life and routine and rituals and activities of the best and most ideal Bahai person, 11.2. and if you do this, and 11.3. if not, why not? 11.4. Are you failing? 11.5. You aren't afraid or don't care much or what?

12. What is your personal story with Bahai, or if you are a Bahai, how did you come to Bahai or come to believe in it, and 12.2. what do you think of the Qur'an and 12.3. Why aren't you just a follower of the Qur'an?

13. What factor makes one or leads one to be a true Bahai and what is believed to be the factor that makes people deny it or defy it or reject it or be skeptical of it in the genuine views of the Bahai?

14. I view Bahai religion as a degradation or inferior version of Qur'anic Islam, can you clarify or correct this view and show how it might actually be an improvement on the Qur'anic religion or differs from it in such a way in its teachings and practices? I currently find the Muslims to be more devout, more physically clean, more disciplined, etc, so superior in every way to the Bahai which seems like its just a deflated and luke-warm Western pandering version of Islam.

15. What are the Bahai views on the actual detailed description of God (what is God, in detail, down to every detail you can muster up), angels, demons, jinn, whatever, the whole cosmology, the whole belief system in detail, magic, mysticism, symbols, all that you can discuss which give a clear picture of the Bahai worldview and cosmology and locations and history and bestiary and all that.

16. How can one come to respect, admire, or follow Baha'u'llah if one doesn't have much respect for any human beings, or for Baha'u'llah's supposed predecessors, or Muhammed, or Jesus, or Moses, or even God? 16.2. How much belief or practice is required to be a true Bahai or attain God's reward, and what is that Reward anyway and in return for what exactly and why?

17. What is the opposite of a Bahai (sometimes this helps clarify what a Bahai is through the example of what is not a Bahai or what the diametric opposite might be). 17.2. Who, if anyone, are the bad guys or groups, or list all the major bad guys or groups, like even Satan if Satan plays a role at all in the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

18. The statistical numbers of other groups are higher, what does this mean? Has the mission failed, or is it only getting started? It seems doubtful at this rate or with these numbers that Bahai religion will be a major force in 1000 years. 18.2. What accounts for the slaying of Bab and Baha'u'llah if these were slain (as compared to Muhammed, who was not slain, or Moses, who was not slain), and the comparatively small following of the Bahai faith as compared to variations of Islam and Christianity?

19. What are the strongest appeals and apologetics for Bahai religion and why one should follow it and perform each of the required or recommended rituals or tasks?

20. How was your mood and thought process before and after Bahai religion was taken on as your personal religion, and what aspects of it do you personally perceive as those which make the most beneficial difference in your thinking or practices?

21. What are some resources or all the best resources to read all the important or just all of the available and translated Bahai literature online, and what is the value if any of doing so, and what are the bare minimum requirements or recommendations for reading (how much does one need to know, and also if there is any stuff people should avoid reading or which when they read they become really difficult or skeptical).

22. Where is God right now, as I'm writing this, in your beliefs or understandings, and what would God think if I thought poorly of Baha'u'llah or Muhammed or something? Or even God? 22.2.What would thinking poorly of God be exactly in your opinion?

Lots of questions!

23. What is the Bahai organization hierarchy and system and who are the leaders and bosses and why?
24. Have you heard of the Ismaeli leadership structure? Can you compare it to them or the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses?

25. What aspects of your personal history and background do you think really might be responsible for your accepting Bahai religion as your religion (or rejecting it, if a non-Bahai answers).

Um. This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much for one thread. Maybe start a series of threads on different topics relating to Bahai?
 
You could post this on an ex-Bahai forum as well. They will offer a differing perspective, and can be very knowledgeable. Some were Baha'i for 30 years or so, and did a lot of research.
Did you get to hear or see some of the reasons why they said they left after so long? I am always interested in hearing about people like that who end up leaving things, joining things, making changes, etc.
 
Um. This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much for one thread. Maybe start a series of threads on different topics relating to Bahai?

I thought I've done enough by making this thread. I answered 72 questions or so in another thread recently, its not that hard really, but there is the accusation in there that there may be an aspect of flabbiness or unwillingness to diligently bring people in on the knowledge if one finds themselves incapable of happily discussing these things.

Here are the 72:
The Artist Magistra Q that hopefully can shed some light

If anyone has genuine faith that they have the right beliefs and way, and want to help people with it, and dispel concerns, then they should share it, and answering these questions shows genuine faith and a belief that these things are worth sharing and helping people with, like medicine. If you had the cure for people, or something they really needed to know, why would someone be lazy about just taking their sweet time and gently and gradually answering them in order to help people, and numerous people can be helped, and even if they don't become Bahai, they might learn and be educated about it, and be nicer to Bahai people too, this is all supposed to be good, and if someone doesn't want to do it or feels incapable of it, then don't do it, and just watch, and if a person can't even bare to exercise their eyes by waiting and watching, then there are a number of places other than this one can be.

I'm lazy though, too lazy to spam this forum with numerous individual threads about the Bahai faith. I don't care that much. I'm not a Bahai. I don't believe in the Bahai faith or claims, I don't believe in Bab or Baha'u'llah, and like I said, I'm even prejudiced against practically anything coming out of Persia or involved with that region. Yet, answering those questions can be an opportunity for devout Bahai people to dispel questions for others and showcase the nobility of their faith and their own care and decency and good qualities as representatives of that faith and carrying its teachings in their heart and conduct.

So no. I don't have enough of a reason to go around ruining my already likely bad reputation on this forum by posting numerous separate threads asking Bahai people questions, I prefer consolidated little areas like this where we can discuss and leave the rest of the thread open for other topics and areas of discussion.

Take it or leave it. Thank you for the suggestion, but I don't like the suggestion.
 
***THREAD MOVED TO GENERAL RELIGIOUS DEBATES***

Thank you, its fine here, but my interest and intention was not (in my mind) to debate, but to invite people to discuss at length all these questions and issues, and I didn't plan on really countering them or anything, but instead to ask more questions possibly, but if this is the right place for the thread, so be it!

I'll answer the questions myself to demonstrate how its not that hard, but I'd like longer and more thorough answers from the faithful people who choose to participate.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Did you get to hear or see some of the reasons why they said they left after so long? I am always interested in hearing about people like that who end up leaving things, joining things, making changes, etc.
Yes, that's a continuing topic. There are ex-_________ forums for almost all religions. They offer solace, sharing of stories, and more. Exes in religion, in my view, parallel exes in marriages. Some stay angry, some remain friends, some take longer to heal, etc. It's always a diverse lot. But many really do know a lot. Just search in ex-Baha'i and you'll find a t least one fairly active forum. I look at ex-Hindu mostly.

Probably the most scholarly and well researched ex-Baha'i is one Juan Cole. But there are others.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I thought I've done enough by making this thread. I answered 72 questions or so in another thread recently, its not that hard really, but there is the accusation in there that there may be an aspect of flabbiness or unwillingness to diligently bring people in on the knowledge if one finds themselves incapable of happily discussing these things.

Here are the 72:
The Artist Magistra Q that hopefully can shed some light

If anyone has genuine faith that they have the right beliefs and way, and want to help people with it, and dispel concerns, then they should share it, and answering these questions shows genuine faith and a belief that these things are worth sharing and helping people with, like medicine. If you had the cure for people, or something they really needed to know, why would someone be lazy about just taking their sweet time and gently and gradually answering them in order to help people, and numerous people can be helped, and even if they don't become Bahai, they might learn and be educated about it, and be nicer to Bahai people too, this is all supposed to be good, and if someone doesn't want to do it or feels incapable of it, then don't do it, and just watch, and if a person can't even bare to exercise their eyes by waiting and watching, then there are a number of places other than this one can be.

I'm lazy though, too lazy to spam this forum with numerous individual threads about the Bahai faith. I don't care that much. I'm not a Bahai. I don't believe in the Bahai faith or claims, I don't believe in Bab or Baha'u'llah, and like I said, I'm even prejudiced against practically anything coming out of Persia or involved with that region. Yet, answering those questions can be an opportunity for devout Bahai people to dispel questions for others and showcase the nobility of their faith and their own care and decency and good qualities as representatives of that faith and carrying its teachings in their heart and conduct.

So no. I don't have enough of a reason to go around ruining my already likely bad reputation on this forum by posting numerous separate threads asking Bahai people questions, I prefer consolidated little areas like this where we can discuss and leave the rest of the thread open for other topics and areas of discussion.

Take it or leave it. Thank you for the suggestion, but I don't like the suggestion.

I know from experience how difficult it is to keep threads on topic even when the OP is incredibly concise and specific. A thread with this many rabbit trails is likely to be...a mess. But we shall test the hypothesis. Perhaps your method will be a success, as you say. :)
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I currently do not consider myself a Bahai or follower of the Bab or Baha'u'llah, and will add that I may be somewhat prejudiced or suspicious of practically anything at all coming out of Persia and in relation to the Persian culture, all the way back through the Zoroastrian times even. The thing I dislike Persians for most, is their part in the creation and proliferation of the Hadiths. I don't like Persian people too much, even though some of the women can be good looking to me, but basically don't like anything about them at all overall usually (and also find that a lot of them might be crazy too), so that is to say I'm clearly prejudiced. At the time of the Zoroastrian things, they called the things from India demonic supposedly (naming as Daevas words like Sarva and Indra), and even said odd things about God in various ways like how they attributed to Ahriman the movement of things or change basically, which I attribute to God. Then they went on to make a big fuss about "the family of the Prophet" and mystical qualities and caste systems and blah blah blah, and they were killing lizards like crazy too, just not a fan of these people or their culture or their land or their ideas, even though they get lots of praise. Their influence on the religions, including Judaism, also seems to have been a potentially bad one as well. So, being quite hostile from the get go to this group of people, the idea of a charismatic leader coming along and making any claim, I'm already extremely skeptical, because I don't respect them at all, and already consider them liars from long ago, from the Zoroastrian times, into their Shia split times, finding their Shia traditions to be vile and obnoxious and even blasphemous, and then not being fond also of the Bahai movement either, as a kind of Westernizing suck up type movement, that is supported and funded by groups I don't like (like Zionists) to try to create some kind of trouble for Muslims (who I'm not particularly fond of either).
Jesus, who wants to read a wall of hatred? Life is too short to waste on that nonsense.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Did you get to hear or see some of the reasons why they said they left after so long? I am always interested in hearing about people like that who end up leaving things, joining things, making changes, etc.
I have my own opinion why people leave, and of course they leave for more than one reason, but I will not comment until I see reasons presented, if they are. ;)

Did I tell you that psychology is my other hat, a hat I have worn a lot longer than the Baha'i hat?
Or more correctly, my Baha'i hat was kept in my drawer for decades, just waiting to be pulled out.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Um. This is waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy too much for one thread.
Tell me about it. :eek:
I have not even had time to READ the questions yet, let alone answer them.

And I thought I was the only one who wrote that much. ;)

I keep trying to get to posting that thread I promised you, and every time it looks like I might have time, I get sidetracked, or sideswiped.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
No room for questions in heaven. How will you ask ?

The above is a link to where this questioning started, but in order to prevent de-railing the thread, this thread has been created for anyone at all, especially Bahai people or anyone who deems themselves informed about Bahai or even just logical people, to contribute and think about and answer some of these questions.

The questions are as follows (but more may be brought up throughout the thread, and anyone else can also ask questions here about Bahai things or to me or whatever).

I currently do not consider myself a Bahai or follower of the Bab or Baha'u'llah, and will add that I may be somewhat prejudiced or suspicious of practically anything at all coming out of Persia and in relation to the Persian culture, all the way back through the Zoroastrian times even. The thing I dislike Persians for most, is their part in the creation and proliferation of the Hadiths. I don't like Persian people too much, even though some of the women can be good looking to me, but basically don't like anything about them at all overall usually (and also find that a lot of them might be crazy too), so that is to say I'm clearly prejudiced. At the time of the Zoroastrian things, they called the things from India demonic supposedly (naming as Daevas words like Sarva and Indra), and even said odd things about God in various ways like how they attributed to Ahriman the movement of things or change basically, which I attribute to God. Then they went on to make a big fuss about "the family of the Prophet" and mystical qualities and caste systems and blah blah blah, and they were killing lizards like crazy too, just not a fan of these people or their culture or their land or their ideas, even though they get lots of praise. Their influence on the religions, including Judaism, also seems to have been a potentially bad one as well. So, being quite hostile from the get go to this group of people, the idea of a charismatic leader coming along and making any claim, I'm already extremely skeptical, because I don't respect them at all, and already consider them liars from long ago, from the Zoroastrian times, into their Shia split times, finding their Shia traditions to be vile and obnoxious and even blasphemous, and then not being fond also of the Bahai movement either, as a kind of Westernizing suck up type movement, that is supported and funded by groups I don't like (like Zionists) to try to create some kind of trouble for Muslims (who I'm not particularly fond of either).

So, getting that out of the way, this is a great opportunity for people who are knowledgeable of the Bahai religion and history and apologetics to teach everyone who visits this thread all about the religion and put at ease their questions. It is unlikely to move me, except that the patience and courtesy and gentleness that people treat me with here in patiently answering my questions will likely leave me with the opinion that the Bahai are nice people (in fact, I already have this opinion of them, as they are decent and simple folks as far as I've seen and my family has been friends with Bahai people as well).

So to start off:

1. Why should Bab and Baha'u'llah be believed? While we're at it, why should any of these people be believed? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Paul, all the rest, whoever you can think of, why?

2. What significant update to Islam was required when the Muslims seem to still be functioning as Muslims along with the Qur'an.

3. Is the Qur'an to be believed, or is it a lie?

4. What are the changes to the Qur'anic laws by the Bab and to the Bab's laws by Baha'u'llah, and why was such an update necessary between these two in such an extremely small amount of time?

5. How are Bahai not just some type of Muslims?

6. Who are all the Prophets, and what is the point of calling them anything or giving them any significance if they are to be disregarded and are outdated anyway? Like, who cares about them if all that matters really is the Baha'u'llah and what Baha'u'llah says?

7. How do we know these people aren't just like any "Charismatic Cult Leader"?

8. The Mormons or the LDS Church (Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints or whatever) call their organizations leaders Prophets and have a chain of new ones leading back to Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and they keep updating and saying that this is the old stuff and here is the new stuff, is there any similarity to that and the Bahai thinking, and why should the Mormons not be believed and followed? They too are a wealthy organized religion with fancy looking buildings and other things.

9. What does it take to be a Bahai, and 9.2. how can one be a Bahai, and 9.3. why should one be a Bahai? 9.4. What is the expected fate of non-Bahai? 9.5. What is expected to happen to the devout Muslims? 9.6. So what then makes this addition necessary or worth the risk?

10. What is the population of the Bahai, their true number, in your estimates (taking out the nominal and not serious Bahai, but actual practitioners).

11. Please give the daily life and routine and rituals and activities of the best and most ideal Bahai person, 11.2. and if you do this, and 11.3. if not, why not? 11.4. Are you failing? 11.5. You aren't afraid or don't care much or what?

12. What is your personal story with Bahai, or if you are a Bahai, how did you come to Bahai or come to believe in it, and 12.2. what do you think of the Qur'an and 12.3. Why aren't you just a follower of the Qur'an?

13. What factor makes one or leads one to be a true Bahai and what is believed to be the factor that makes people deny it or defy it or reject it or be skeptical of it in the genuine views of the Bahai?

14. I view Bahai religion as a degradation or inferior version of Qur'anic Islam, can you clarify or correct this view and show how it might actually be an improvement on the Qur'anic religion or differs from it in such a way in its teachings and practices? I currently find the Muslims to be more devout, more physically clean, more disciplined, etc, so superior in every way to the Bahai which seems like its just a deflated and luke-warm Western pandering version of Islam.

15. What are the Bahai views on the actual detailed description of God (what is God, in detail, down to every detail you can muster up), angels, demons, jinn, whatever, the whole cosmology, the whole belief system in detail, magic, mysticism, symbols, all that you can discuss which give a clear picture of the Bahai worldview and cosmology and locations and history and bestiary and all that.

16. How can one come to respect, admire, or follow Baha'u'llah if one doesn't have much respect for any human beings, or for Baha'u'llah's supposed predecessors, or Muhammed, or Jesus, or Moses, or even God? 16.2. How much belief or practice is required to be a true Bahai or attain God's reward, and what is that Reward anyway and in return for what exactly and why?

17. What is the opposite of a Bahai (sometimes this helps clarify what a Bahai is through the example of what is not a Bahai or what the diametric opposite might be). 17.2. Who, if anyone, are the bad guys or groups, or list all the major bad guys or groups, like even Satan if Satan plays a role at all in the teachings of Baha'u'llah.

18. The statistical numbers of other groups are higher, what does this mean? Has the mission failed, or is it only getting started? It seems doubtful at this rate or with these numbers that Bahai religion will be a major force in 1000 years. 18.2. What accounts for the slaying of Bab and Baha'u'llah if these were slain (as compared to Muhammed, who was not slain, or Moses, who was not slain), and the comparatively small following of the Bahai faith as compared to variations of Islam and Christianity?

19. What are the strongest appeals and apologetics for Bahai religion and why one should follow it and perform each of the required or recommended rituals or tasks?

20. How was your mood and thought process before and after Bahai religion was taken on as your personal religion, and what aspects of it do you personally perceive as those which make the most beneficial difference in your thinking or practices?

21. What are some resources or all the best resources to read all the important or just all of the available and translated Bahai literature online, and what is the value if any of doing so, and what are the bare minimum requirements or recommendations for reading (how much does one need to know, and also if there is any stuff people should avoid reading or which when they read they become really difficult or skeptical).

22. Where is God right now, as I'm writing this, in your beliefs or understandings, and what would God think if I thought poorly of Baha'u'llah or Muhammed or something? Or even God? 22.2.What would thinking poorly of God be exactly in your opinion?

Lots of questions!

23. What is the Bahai organization hierarchy and system and who are the leaders and bosses and why?
24. Have you heard of the Ismaeli leadership structure? Can you compare it to them or the Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses?

25. What aspects of your personal history and background do you think really might be responsible for your accepting Bahai religion as your religion (or rejecting it, if a non-Bahai answers).

Just out of interest, what reading or study have you done about the Baha'i Faith?

I’m busy with work at the moment but will try to find time later to answer some of your questions.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Did you get to hear or see some of the reasons why they said they left after so long? I am always interested in hearing about people like that who end up leaving things, joining things, making changes, etc.

I have witnessed many times why people leave. Some of of the times you can see that they are on shaky foundations.

I always worry for a person that declares a faith, as faith is always tested. One must let the process unfold.

Regards Tony
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
1. Why should Bab and Baha'u'llah be believed? While we're at it, why should any of these people be believed? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Paul, all the rest, whoever you can think of, why?

The main issues to consider are:

1/ The lives of religious founders and whether or not they were exemplary in any way. The Bab and His followers withstood enormous persecution to bring a new approach to religion that clearly distinguishes itself from Islam. The Bab and thousands of Babis were put to death. Bahá’u’lláh was tortured, imprisoned and exiled for 40 years.

2/ The Teachings themselves meet the needs of humanity.

3/ Prophecies fulfilled.

2. What significant update to Islam was required when the Muslims seem to still be functioning as Muslims along with the Qur'an.

A few examples to begin with:

Acknowledgement of the oneness of religion

The equality of men and women

The abolition of slavery

The harmony between science and religion

The need for independent investigation of reality


3. Is the Qur'an to be believed, or is it a lie?

It is to be believed

4. What are the changes to the Qur'anic laws by the Bab and to the Bab's laws by Baha'u'llah, and why was such an update necessary between these two in such an extremely small amount of time?

The Quran was Revealed in the seventh century when the conditions in the world are hugely different from today. Many Islamic countries have Sharia laws that have questionable Quranic basis clearly not suited to the modern age eg apostasy and blasphemy laws along with condign punishments for breaking Quranic laws.

5. How are Bahai not just some type of Muslims?

The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh is the Foundation of Baha’i beliefs whereas the Revelation of Muhammad is the foundation for Muslims. So they are two entirely different religions though related as Judaism and Christianity are related.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Tell me about it. :eek:
I have not even had time to READ the questions yet, let alone answer them.

And I thought I was the only one who wrote that much. ;)

I keep trying to get to posting that thread I promised you, and every time it looks like I might have time, I get sidetracked, or sideswiped.

There is a very simple solution.

I am your most important priority. :D
 
The Artist Magistra Q that hopefully can shed some light

1. Why should Bab and Baha'u'llah be believed? While we're at it, why should any of these people be believed? Jesus, Muhammed, Moses, Abraham, Paul, all the rest, whoever you can think of, why?
Hi, I'm not a Bahai and know very little about it, so I can't answer as well or as thoroughly as a Bahai might, but I also mentioned that non-Bahai people can answer also the way they might or would. It should be noted, these are just where I'm at currently, and I may change at some point even, but its unlikely too and I've had the same beliefs since I'm a little kid, but that shouldn't ever discourage people from speaking their truth! So, here is a demonstration of how these questions can be answered by a non-Bahai, but I expect much lengthier and more thorough answers from devout Bahai, and which they can take their time answering all at once, one at a time, random selections they are interested in answering, totally whatever! I don't care! I will likely enjoy reading it all and learn a lot regardless!

So to answer this first question from the perspective of where I'm a spiritually these days:
The Bab or the Baha'u'llah should be read, and anything good they have said according to your ways of judging what you think is good or bad, should be taken and adopted, and whatever you don't like, discarded or put aside. I don't necessarily believe or disbelieve that they are Prophets or Messengers, but I do believe that God created these groups and these were God's pawns, whatever may have been in their hearts or minds, and that God wanted the Bahai religion to be brought into existence.

Why should any of them be believed? They shouldn't, they are nobodies, who cares, but if they said anything of value seemingly, take it, use it to the best of your ability, and whatever seems like trash, trash it, who cares. If some criminal said 2+2=4, doesn't mean that it is a lie, or can't be used! So take whatever is good, and whatever you don't understand or care for or gives you a bad taste in your mouth, no need to consume or adopt it, simple as that! My advice! Ignore the fire in the background!

2. What significant update to Islam was required when the Muslims seem to still be functioning as Muslims along with the Qur'an.
The Muslims seem to be doing fine with their Qur'an, and so it appears to me that the reasoning of "an update was required with 1800s standards" which were still not the best anyway, is not the best reasoning really. The Muslims will likely do fine using their Qur'an into the future. They even seem to be around in the film Chronicles of Riddick, which takes place in a pretty distant seeming future with a New Mecca or something.

3. Is the Qur'an to be believed, or is it a lie?
The Qur'an is a lie. I said that because I feel like it, and most people seem to think so, but then the lesser half of people seem to say that it isn't a lie. My advice still applies to the Qur'an and any scripture, even to Moby Dick, if it says something you like, take it, if it says something you can use well, use it. You can make anything match up to the truth or out to be a lie, its all you here! Why shoot yourself in the foot and burn your bridges? Why should you cut yourself off from someone else's hard work and years of beard twiddling? Appropriate everything for your advantage! The monkeys sit there and watch each other, and then they learn how to pick ants and how to smoke cigarettes and how to build planes, and in no time we have Charlton Heston in the disadvantage, and that is how humans have become the top dogs around these parts.

4. What are the changes to the Qur'anic laws by the Bab and to the Bab's laws by Baha'u'llah, and why was such an update necessary between these two in such an extremely small amount of time?
It seems to indicate that this (was it foreign supported and funded?) movement did not have a necessarily clear vision of the near future, but if that is anyone's fault, it is surely God's fault for giving the Bab different laws than the Baha'u'llah in just a few years time, and also not apparently confirm to them that they will not be saved from the execution squads of his other goons. Typical of Odin.

5. How are Bahai not just some type of Muslims?
Bahai are pretty clearly some kind of offshoot of Muslims, and a seemingly (to me) unnecessary one at that, which have picked up the Persian flavoring (and I have some issues with Persian food in Vancouver I've had as well, bland as ice! The Greek food and the Indian Food, Afghani food, and Pakistani food, even perogies all had a ton more flavor, and they put this annoying red spice that had no flavor either, what was the freaking point? What did it add? A symbol for the wise N'ommmm.

6. Who are all the Prophets, and what is the point of calling them anything or giving them any significance if they are to be disregarded and are outdated anyway? Like, who cares about them if all that matters really is the Baha'u'llah and what Baha'u'llah says?
Yeah, Muslims also tell this sort of annoying lie, they are sometimes like "omg, we believe in the Bible too tho!" no you don't! You don't! You're just saying that to get converts! If you believe in the Bible wholly, then why not follow it like the others? You don't believe in it, if anything, you just like a few verses, but you believe in something else! Same goes for the Bahai, they don't really give a hoot about the Qur'an, or else they would never find any need for the Bab or Baha'u'llah most likely. So if they are all outmoded, they are surely meaningless, just used as a way to drag in other groups or make their ears perk up, maybe even a trick used by the Qur'an as well! Do the Muslims care about Paul's Jesus or the Jesus of the "Church Fathers"? Highly unlikely. This message was endorsed by so and so long dead person! See? They didn't object!

7. How do we know these people aren't just like any "Charismatic Cult Leader"?
I think they most likely were just like all the Charismatic Cult Leaders we see on tv going to jail or in Netflix documentaries, and so its nice when they are long dead or mostly made up, because knowing them would probably be even more difficult to swallow than if they were just found in some single document or fragments or something. Then we can cuddle up and romantically dream about what a decent person our Dad was before he died in the war, awww. I'm often curious about what it is in people that makes them adore men and trust them!

8. The Mormons or the LDS Church (Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter Day Saints or whatever) call their organizations leaders Prophets and have a chain of new ones leading back to Joseph Smith, then Brigham Young, and they keep updating and saying that this is the old stuff and here is the new stuff, is there any similarity to that and the Bahai thinking, and why should the Mormons not be believed and followed? They too are a wealthy organized religion with fancy looking buildings and other things.
No idea, but I assume the Bahai people have some kind of organization too which is directing the money and building or maintaining places. I find all organized religions that are basically organizations with strict structures and hierarchies to be prone to corruption, and have very little faith in humanity not to always give way to the predators.

9. What does it take to be a Bahai, and 9.2. how can one be a Bahai, and 9.3. why should one be a Bahai? 9.4. What is the expected fate of non-Bahai? 9.5. What is expected to happen to the devout Muslims? 9.6. So what then makes this addition necessary or worth the risk?

The Bahai people I've interacted with, particularly the ones known by my family, seemed to say prayers somewhat similarly to Muslims, but basically I know nothing about the religion, and so I have no idea except to say its likely that one follows Baha'u'llah and reads what writings they can of his, and that the expected fate of rejecters is either punishment or reward (but likely not as much reward, or else what would be the reason to be a Bahai if you get just as much as someone who isn't, except for comfort and preference?), and I think it would be a hard sell maybe to state that the followers of Muhammed who are following supposedly legit scripture will be doomed to hell for following it when Islam 2.0 or 2.1 was released, and so the addition was not even necessary nor worth the risk if the Muslims were right and the Bab and Bahai were upstarts (just like the Shia upstarts who are already disliked by the Sunni (upstarts)).

10. What is the population of the Bahai, their true number, in your estimates (taking out the nominal and not serious Bahai, but actual practitioners).
I'll be generous and say they number maybe around 1 million, but I think they maybe only number 100,000 and really devout and genuine ones maybe couple thousand in the whole world. This is a very poor estimate, so help me!

11. Please give the daily life and routine and rituals and activities of the best and most ideal Bahai person, 11.2. and if you do this, and 11.3. if not, why not? 11.4. Are you failing? 11.5. You aren't afraid or don't care much or what?
Basically, the best Bahai is most likely the most like Baha'u'llah, and so they will believe like a very good and mystical Muslim Sufi'ish Shia type with devotion and dhikr beads and reciting prayers and blah blah and praying all day and not doing evil stuff. No way do I do this, and I don't do this because I'm lazy and don't think that I have to do this to achieve good enough results, and yeah I'm failing probably, and must not be too afraid or care enough, laziness conquers all!

12. What is your personal story with Bahai, or if you are a Bahai, how did you come to Bahai or come to believe in it, and 12.2. what do you think of the Qur'an and 12.3. Why aren't you just a follower of the Qur'an?
My personal story with the Bahai is I once heard a weird voice like a high pitched female or child voice outside my door to my house in Pearl City Hawaii when I lived there, I snuck around to a side to see who it was speaking there, and I saw it was my father. He was pretending to be a woman and flirting with an old man from Texas who was a Bahai. The old man thought that my dad was for real, and went to the woman that he thought it was, and she freaked out and rejected his advances which he thought were welcomed based on my Dad's flirting with him on the phone. My dad and him then went to a restaurant, and the old man weeped and weeped and weeped about how he was treated by that woman who had seduced him and then rejected him in person. My father wept. I laugh so much. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I feel bad but omg that is freaking ridiculous, and that is my experience with the Bahai. I have had Bahai literature seemingly found by me laying around or come into my possession as if it is a sign from God, and I go "nah", I also have a lot of other stuff I barely touch or read. I think the Qur'an is great and far superior and far less annoying than the writings of the Baha'u'llah in translation or whatever Bahai literature I've read, which annoys the heck out of me, is so flowery, so over the top, people love the Persian poets, I find them totally irritating, and I am not attracted to anything like their ideas of "love of God" which frequent Persian materials, yuck, pyewy! The closest I get to that love stuff with a Persian background is Freddie Mercury and Queen. I am a follower of the Qur'an, a prankster, like my evil dad before me.
 
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