Questions about the Greek of the New Testament

[Ehav4Ever]

From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek. Starting with the Gospels and the book of Acts I have the following questions.

1. According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?
2. If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?
3. Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?
4. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

Thank you.

 

[74x12]

From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek. Starting with the Gospels and the book of Acts I have the following questions.

1. According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?
2. If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?
3. Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?
4. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

Thank you.

1. Not that I know of. It's debated. I think it depends which book is being referred to. For example epistles written to the church in Corinth would likely be in Greek because that is a Greek city. Many other epistles are also written to predominately Greek speaking communities. It's probably safe to assume they were written in Greek. Paul should have known Greek growing up in Cilicia.
2. The original apostles were unlikely to be educated in Greek. They or may not have known how to speak it; but as for writing it that is doubtful.
3. Aramaic and Hebrew would have probably been the preferred languages of that region at the time for Jews.
4. If you mean the gospels; yes the speeches were translated. Judeans and Galileans weren't speaking Greek in day to day conversations. Even Pilate had to write the title over Jesus head in 3 languages. Hebrew, Greek and Latin so everyone could read it.

There is no reason I know of to assume they were originally written in Greek even though some people are convinced they were. The gospels we have were from the Medieval Byzantine Bible. As far as I know; no one has the original documents. The Byzantine Bible was entirely Greek of course so it's not really proof that they were originally Greek. Although evidence exists of very early Greek versions; that also is not proof.

There is a Hebrew book of Matthew that may actually be older in origin than the Greek versions.

 

[Redemptionsong]

From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek. Starting with the Gospels and the book of Acts I have the following questions.

1. According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?
2. If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?
3. Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?
4. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

Thank you.

Here's what Dr Scroggie says about Mark's Gospel.
'John Mark was the son of Mary, who lived in Jerusalem [Acts12:12]. His name occurs eight times in the New Testament. JOHN was his Jewish, and MARK, his Roman name. At the beginning of Paul's missionary life, and at the end of it, Mark was with him, and, it would appear, he was with Peter between these periods.
That Mark wrote this Gospel, is a very ancient tradition, going back to the time of Papias, 120 A.D., who speaks of him as the "interpeter of Peter". In Acts 10:34-43, is a summary of Peter's preaching, and Mark's Gospel is substantially the full text of Peter's oral messages. By "interpreter", in all likelihood Papias meant "translator", that is, that Mark translated into Greek the Aramaic in which Peter would preach'.

 

[Brian2]

From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek. Starting with the Gospels and the book of Acts I have the following questions.

1. According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?
2. If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?
3. Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?
4. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

Thank you.

Luke was an educated Greek.
Matthew is thought to have written in Hebrew or Aramaic originally.
John was old and could have learnt Greek but someone may have written what he said.
Mark seems to have been young but his gospel would have been translated if written in Hebrew or Aramaic.
The conversations would have been in Aramaic probably originally.

 

[Kenny]

From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek. Starting with the Gospels and the book of Acts I have the following questions.

1. According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?
2. If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?
3. Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?
4. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

Thank you.

Of course, we can only speak theoretically because we have no documents that I know of to answer that question

Part of the problem is the culture that we are brought up in. IMO. In Europe it is common to know 3 languages (depending on where you live) because of all the neighboring countries. I speak two languages with equal fluidity.

Historically, when the Greeks were the world dominating country, Greek became the official language for the world. There were very pro-education.

Israel is a very strategic location with it being in the Mediterranean. As a center of commerce, it would be of great value to know Greek. IMV.

Additionally, I find it interesting that the Romans had such a capacity to interact with the world. Is it because they learned everyone's language. IMV, I don't think so. As a world power, it has two options... either they knew Greek too or they also instituted the demand that everyone learn Romans... at least those who wanted to do business with them. (Necessity is the mother of invention and learning)

Certainly, this is just an opinion, but when one is learning a language from birth,
https://bilingualkidspot.com/2018/01/15/how-many-languages-can-children-learn-same-time/

 

[Brian2]

From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek. Starting with the Gospels and the book of Acts I have the following questions.

1. According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?
2. If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?
3. Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?
4. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

Thank you.

Of course in Galilee where Jesus and the apostles came from, a mix of languages was probably known because it was a place of Gentiles as well as Jews.

 

[metis]

1. Not that I know of. It's debated. I think it depends which book is being referred to. For example epistles written to the church in Corinth would likely be in Greek because that is a Greek city. Many other epistles are also written to predominately Greek speaking communities. It's probably safe to assume they were written in Greek. Paul should have known Greek growing up in Cilicia.
2. The original apostles were unlikely to be educated in Greek. They or may not have known how to speak it; but as for writing it that is doubtful.
3. Aramaic and Hebrew would have probably been the preferred languages of that region at the time for Jews.
4. If you mean the gospels; yes the speeches were translated. Judeans and Galileans weren't speaking Greek in day to day conversations. Even Pilate had to write the title over Jesus head in 3 languages. Hebrew, Greek and Latin so everyone could read it.

There is no reason I know of to assume they were originally written in Greek even though some people are convinced they were. The gospels we have were from the Medieval Byzantine Bible. As far as I know; no one has the original documents. The Byzantine Bible was entirely Greek of course so it's not really proof that they were originally Greek. Although evidence exists of very early Greek versions; that also is not proof.

There is a Hebrew book of Matthew that may actually be older in origin than the Greek versions.

^^hear-hear^^

 

[1213]

...

1. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

By what the Bible tells, the original disciples were Jews, so I believe they spoke and wrote Hebrew/Aramaic and I think it is possible they could have also written Greek. I believe the original stories were in Hebrew/Aramaic and the Greek version is translation.

 

[DNB]

According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?

Yes, the common acceptance is that the authors of the NT all wrote the autographs in in Greek, since the majority, if not all, of the earliest manuscripts are in Greek. The earliest dating back to 125AD (P52), only 35 years after the original (Gospel of John).

If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?

Alexander had Hellenized that entire regions that he conquered, and thus Greek remained the lingua franca of the Mediterranean are for many centuries.

Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?

The NT in its entirety, is by no means all written in the same level Greek throughout all the Books. Luke, being known as a doctor, probably had the most sophisticated Greek of all the authors. Paul was an extremely well educated person, so that his his Greek compositional skills would have been advanced, but distinct from Luke's. The other authors were typically Koine Greek, which was common, not formal nor necessarily eloquent.

Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

It is understood that the NT authors translated the spoken Aramaic to Greek, making the documents more accessible to the known world, especially since the advent of the Gentile converts.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek. Starting with the Gospels and the book of Acts I have the following questions.

1. According to Chritianity, is it claimed that the authors of the Gospels wrote the New Testament, themselves, in the type of Greek found in the oldest surviving versions of the New Testament?
2. If so, from who and where did they learn that level Greek from?
3. Were they raised in the Galilee reading, speaking, and writing in this level of Greek?
4. Is it considered that the conversations, talking, debates, etc. that are recorded in the New Testament took place using the level of Greek found in the New Testament? If not, is it considered that the NT authors were translating the conversations from, let’s say Hebrew/Aramaic, into Greek?

Thank you.

You are going to get different answers depending on whether you are talking to an evangelical or a mainstream protestant.

Evangelicals believe that the gospels were literally written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, in koine greek. But the more liberal mainstream churches understand that these names are just tradition -- not only is there no evidence that Matthew et al wrote the gospels, it seems to be entirely improbably. Modern scholarship reveals that the authors of Matthew and Luke actually used pre-existing texts (Mark and Q) as a foundation for their gospels. The gospel of John seems to have begun with a document sometimes called the Seven Signs of Jesus, which another author took, and added to, and then a third author took that combined text and added his own stuff to it. The story of the woman caught in adultery was a free floating story that was tucked into the text of John later in history.

I understand your point about where did Matthew Mark Luke and John learn their greek. But remember that Greek was the lingua franca of the area. There are much better reasons not to believe the four wrote the gospels than just that they are in Greek.

So what did Jesus actually say, since obvioustly he didn't teach in Greek? Who really knows. These stories in the gospels were written down decades after Jesus' death, and you know how oral history isn't really accurate -- legends and myths slip in. It's like a gigantic game of telephone.

You might enjoy the following scholarly discussions on the origins of teh Synoptic gospels and John.

 

[Brian2]

You are going to get different answers depending on whether you are talking to an evangelical or a mainstream protestant.

Evangelicals believe that the gospels were literally written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, in koine greek. But the more liberal mainstream churches understand that these names are just tradition -- not only is there no evidence that Matthew et al wrote the gospels, it seems to be entirely improbably. Modern scholarship reveals that the authors of Matthew and Luke actually used pre-existing texts (Mark and Q) as a foundation for their gospels. The gospel of John seems to have begun with a document sometimes called the Seven Signs of Jesus, which another author took, and added to, and then a third author took that combined text and added his own stuff to it. The story of the woman caught in adultery was a free floating story that was tucked into the text of John later in history.

I understand your point about where did Matthew Mark Luke and John learn their greek. But remember that Greek was the lingua franca of the area. There are much better reasons not to believe the four wrote the gospels than just that they are in Greek.

So what did Jesus actually say, since obvioustly he didn't teach in Greek? Who really knows. These stories in the gospels were written down decades after Jesus' death, and you know how oral history isn't really accurate -- legends and myths slip in. It's like a gigantic game of telephone.

You might enjoy the following scholarly discussions on the origins of teh Synoptic gospels and John.

You seem to use similar thinking that people use against the authenticity of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You seem to use similar thinking that people use against the authenticity of the Hebrew scriptures.

Oh, trust me, I'm no hypocrite. It is just as true that a great many books of the Tanakh are actually pseudepigraphal, often written by more than one author. I also see contradictions between what different authors say. It's not as if the Tanakh is one unified writing. It is a collection of different books by different people who sometimes had very different ideas. The thing is, I don't depend on the Torah being perfect in order for it to be the sacred text of my people. The idea of biblical inerrancy is an evangelical one. Sure some Jews believe the Torah has no flaws. But not all.

 

[Brian2]

Oh, trust me, I'm no hypocrite. It is just as true that a great many books of the Tanakh are actually pseudepigraphal, often written by more than one author. I also see contradictions between what different authors say. It's not as if the Tanakh is one unified writing. It is a collection of different books by different people who sometimes had very different ideas. The thing is, I don't depend on the Torah being perfect in order for it to be the sacred text of my people. The idea of biblical inerrancy is an evangelical one. Sure some Jews believe the Torah has no flaws. But not all.

The New Testament and the Hebrew Scriptures are the sacred text of my people also.
I don't find different authors to be a problem in the Hebrew scriptures and a lot of the contradictions can be explained.
You must draw the line somewhere surely. If you believed everything some modern scholars say it could not be good for your faith.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The New Testament and the Hebrew Scriptures are the sacred text of my people also.
I don't find different authors to be a problem in the Hebrew scriptures and a lot of the contradictions can be explained.
You must draw the line somewhere surely. If you believed everything some modern scholars say it could not be good for your faith.

I do believe that modern scholarship is an extremely good and beneficial thing. It is a great asset to me when studying the scriptures. It is not the only approach to the texts that I use. But it contributes to the richness.

As for my faith, it certainly has evolved. I'm not the literalist that I once was. But I view this change as one of becoming a more mature person who accepts that life isn't the simple that we think it is when we are children. It is complex and messy. Jesus says to have the faith of a little child. I say nonsense -- have the faith of an adult when you are an adult.

 

[Clear]

I don't have an interest in this thread other than to make a single point about the underlying assumption in the O.P.

@Ehav4Ever said : "From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek."

This assumption is incorrect.

The majority of the new testament Koine is average, day to day speech used in general and not "well-educated" Koine. Koine was not, itself, as "high level", and "well developed as the greek used by the famous greek writers. In fact Koine means "common".

Koine was mostly known as the language used by Alexander the Great as a language that was adopted by his soldiers who were an amalgamation from several countries with differing languages. Adopting a simple form of Greek as a "common" language allowed for communication and coordination of the soldiers and for trade and interchange among the various populations. The most famous of greek literature was not in koine partly because it was not the higher level, more fully developed, "well-educated Greek" of your assumption.


Clear
φιτζσεω

 

[Ehav4Ever]

The majority of the new testament Koine is average, day to day speech used in general and not "well-educated" Koine. Koine was not, itself, as "high level", and "well developed as the greek used by the famous greek writers. In fact Koine means "common".

Interesting. So, based on what you are saying were the authors of stories in the New Testament translating or where they transcribing the stories took place among Koine Greek speakers? Also, for example is it considered that Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, James, and all educated in the Galilee in Koine Greek? If so, what institutions were in place there to learn how to read and write Koine Greek?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Interesting. So, based on what you are saying were the authors of stories in the New Testament translating or where they transcribing the stories took place among Koine Greek speakers? Also, for example is it considered that Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, James, and all educated in the Galilee in Koine Greek? If so, what institutions were in place there to learn how to read and write Koine Greek?

You are assuming that the gospels are literally written by Matthew Mark Luke and John. Scholars say this is not so.

 

[metis]

You are assuming that the gospels are literally written by Matthew Mark Luke and John. Scholars say this is not so.

Especially since it was customary back then to have "ghost writers" who were disciples of the Apostles but to then give credit to the Apostle.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Koine Greek was not a debased form of Greek, it was the one form of Greek that survived at the time. Empires, such as the one of Alexander the Great tend to generate a single common language. And that ended up being the language of the empire that he started. By the time of Jesus it was a formal language so you will hear scholars that will inform you that the Gospels were formally trained in Koine Greek. That would appear to exclude any of the disciples.

Koine Greek - Wikipedia

 

[Clear]

Hi @Ehav4Ever

THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN "COMMON" KOINE GREEK AND NOT A "VERY WELL EDUCATED" GREEK
@Ehav4Ever said : "From what I understand, the oldest versions of the New Testament were written in a very well-educated Koine Greek."
Clear replied : “This assumption is incorrect. The majority of the new testament Koine is average, day to day speech used in general and not "well-educated" Koine. Koine was not, itself, as "high level", and "well developed as the greek used by the famous greek writers. In fact Koine means "common".”
Ehav4ever asked : “So, based on what you are saying were the authors of stories in the New Testament translating or where they transcribing the stories took place among Koine Greek speakers?”

The specific fact that the Greek of the New Testament is not a “very well-educated Koine Greek” is not a "basis" for answering this question nor does it inform us who was and who was not educated in Greek.

However, the New Testament text was produced by a world where almost all of western asia had already become Hellenized.
Greek was the lingua franca for that portion of that world for several hundred years and there was no general need for “specialized institutions” at all because many, many people would have been familiar with Greek.

For example, about the time of the Messiah, the coastal cities of Israel were mainly occupied by independent non-Jewish communities.
If one was to do business and trade with people of the coastal cities (and they with ships and merchants from foreign lands) greek as a lingua franca was invaluable.
Even before the Hellenic age Gaza did significant commercial business with Greece.

In fact it was the increasing influence of Hellenism as it started to ingrain itself into an increasingly legalistic Judaism that was the source of much religious contention.
As Hellenism and Judaism became more irreconcilable, the situation spawned the development of antagonistic parties, those friendly to the greeks and the party of the “pious” which opposed Hellenism.


THE JEWS OF THE DIASPORA PRODUCED A GREEK OLD TESTAMENT
The tradition that Ptolemy engaged Jewish scholars to produce a greek Old Testament may have been influenced by desires of his Greek speaking Jewish population who no longer spoke a form of Hebrew and wanted to read the Old Testament in their own language. Such details are lost to history however, even the Jewish Septuagint that had it's origin in approx 300 b.c. was written, not in "a very well educated Greek", but in Koine.



ALL ANCIENT SACRED TEXTS WE ARE SPEAKING OF ARE ANONYMOUS IN THAT THE AUTHORS ARE UNKNOWN AND NO ONE CAN PROVE WHO WROTE ANY OF THEM
None of the writers of any Old Testament or New Testament or early Jewish pseudoepigraphs are known.
All authorship is attributed by tradition alone.

While the New Testament seems to have taken it's final shape in Greek, there are hebraisms in it.

Regarding the Old Testament, no one knows what language the earliest books (such as the pentateuch) were originally written in.

It is presumed that all of the sacred texts were edited before they arrived to us in a more stable version.


In any case, I certainly can't answer who wrote ANY Old or New Testament book and do not know of any person who can tell you that nor can I tell you what sort of linguistic training any Old or New Testament writer had or did not have, nor can I tell you the process of editing other than the Masorites left us multiple notes regarding examples of their editing of the Old Testament as they created the Masoretic Old Testament Bible.

Good luck finding the answers to your questions.


Clear
φιφυδρω