Question for Christians

[esmith]

Clearly, if Jesus Christ said He was going to build His Church, it was a new one and not Judaism, but I think you already know that.

and where do you read that?

 

[AllanV]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegg
there is reading, and then there is studying

no too many do the latter.

I agree. But I think the problem runs a lot deeper than even that.

It is all to do with faith.
God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. God is a God close at hand and not far off.

All that is required is faith. This isn't going to a physical building and mixing with others who have variations in belief. They all have their personal lives involved in their minds as well.

Faith can take a person all the way from what is familiar in the mind and all personal life, to believing in God entirely. A complete change in the mind.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Believeth on him who sent me, means God.

What is belief? A person will have variations and also change their minds depending what other people say. Everyone is bombarded with another persons story and self belief continuously and they will have their variations also.

Therefore it is obvious that the usual belief has to be put aside. That belief is who you are, the old fleshly nature, and this is in charge for self protection.

Stay in your house turn off the TV, disconnect the phone, reduce your food intake to almost nothing and deprive yourself. It is good to do this with another believer who is committed to the same quest and has the spirit.
Some exercise is good perhaps a reasonably long walk once or twice a week to keep some blood circulation.
The quest is to build the belief by continually in every waking moment talking out scriptures that say what the goal is.
I believe Lord, I believe the Bible is true. Please Lord make me Holy. Please Lord make me perfect, Lord I believe. Pray privately 3 times per day. Speak out what is coming to mind.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Every thought and all idle talk, own life story sports etc., these must cease.

Find scriptures that inspire you and build forward momentum. Speak out loud from the heart. The aim is to believe with some conviction and not with any variation of your self and others.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

As time goes on the way in is revealed. It is important to act on any thoughts that are coming to mind and speak them out. Changes in the mind will happen slowly. It took three weeks for the changes to occur in me. But the changes took me all the way.
A spiritual attack will occur and it is realized all human mind is held down by this power.

In modern terms there is a different explanation. Brain chemicals are being changed. The mind it behind the chemicals produced. The result is facial expression, body language and speech. The speech carries some emphases to make a point but this is human and needs to change because this is coming out of the mind and off the heart.

Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
The purity of what comes out of the mouth has to change. And this has to be by believing completely and to a new depth. The heart and mind have to be pure.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

This way is unable to be understood or comprehended from the present belief. The mind and heart are entrapped but the power of this captivity has been disarmed by the sacrifice of Jesus.

The inner energy in the man changes when a person comes to God. And when in His will, Love is broadcast from a pure Heart and mind.

Eph 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

 

[Beta]

there is reading, and then there is studying

no too many do the latter.

and there is REVELATION !

seems not too many 'christians ' receive it !

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I don't hold to objective truth claims, so don't take this as anything more then my opinion, but I think those who are closest to Christ in modern Christianity are Eastern Orthodox. I'm not sure Gnostic could be called Christian, however, Gnostics did have apostolic succession and they did claim to follow Christ. Apostolic Succession is one thing all the early sects agreed was important.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has that and they maintain a lot of the deeper more mystical teachings Gnostics also had. To me, this makes EO as far as Christianity goes, closest to Christ.

 

[Katzpur]

and where do you read that?

Matthew 16:18. "And upon this rock I will build my church..." Unless you think He was speaking of physically erecting a new synagogue, I think it's pretty clear that He said He was going to establish a new church, and that it was going to be His.

 

[Katzpur]

It is all to do with faith.

I wish I could agree. Unfortunately, I look at the world's two billion Christians and must admit that a great many of them have every bit as much faith as I do. If faith were all that was required in order to "get it right," we would not have Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, Pentacostals, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. We'd have "one Lord, one faith, and one baptism," not 30,000 varieties of Christianity.

 

[Katzpur]

I don't hold to objective truth claims, so don't take this as anything more then my opinion, but I think those who are closest to Christ in modern Christianity are Eastern Orthodox. I'm not sure Gnostic could be called Christian, however, Gnostics did have apostolic succession and they did claim to follow Christ. Apostolic Succession is one thing all the early sects agreed was important.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has that and they maintain a lot of the deeper more mystical teachings Gnostics also had. To me, this makes EO as far as Christianity goes, closest to Christ.

How can a church claim to have apostolic succession if it is not led by apostles? Apostles are not the same thing as bishops or priests or anything else. Apostles are apostles. Period.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

How can a church claim to have apostolic succession if it is not led by apostles? Apostles are not the same thing as bishops or priests or anything else. Apostles are apostles. Period.

Does the NT ever really suggest the successor of an Apostle has to be an apostle?

 

[esmith]

Matthew 16:18. "And upon this rock I will build my church..." Unless you think He was speaking of physically erecting a new synagogue, I think it's pretty clear that He said He was going to establish a new church, and that it was going to be His.

Not sure what he was talking about and unless you know for sure you are just speculating. Maybe he wanted to start a branch of the Essenes there.

 

[Beta]

And may I ask what church was that? I thought that everyone has agreed that the Jesus that Christians call Christ was Jewish? Therefore I assume you are saying that the Jewish religion is the only true religion.

A Church is spiritual or at least it should be - not based on national political or any other human devised idea.
God takes HIS people from ALL nations Acts 10v35 so that squashes your assumption.
The only reason the Church started out with and fom jewish members was not because of their nationality but because the Jews were the only nation to keep and maintain GOD's SANCTIFIED and HOLY SABBATH.

The whole World has/is missing that vital point.

 

[Beta]

Does the NT ever really suggest the successor of an Apostle has to be an apostle?

You can not hand Apostleship from one person to another.
Only GOD appoints an Apostle - one sent from God.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

You can not hand Apostleship from one person to another.
Only GOD appoints an Apostle.

The NT does say the Apostles ordained Bishops who have the authority to ordain other Bishops. Would that not make Bishops the successors of the Apostles? Now mind you, I'm not saying that the church can't become corrupt under Bishops, to me it did when political interests won out over Christian diversity when Orthodoxy was established by the Empire.

 

[Katzpur]

Does the NT ever really suggest the successor of an Apostle has to be an apostle?

To me, it couldn't be more obvious. I see it this way: The successor of the President of the United States is another President of the United States. It's not just a senator who fills the role of the President and claims to have the authority of the President. An Apostle was a person who had a specific calling and role. He was ordained to that role and given the authority to fill it. It came with certain rights and responsibilities. When one Apostle died, the others had the authority to choose a successor and to ordain that person to the calling. The Bible frequently referred to the Apostles as "the twelve." They were a group with a clearly defined function in the ancient Church, and Paul said that they were part of the organizational structure Jesus set apart as the foundation upon which His Church was to be built and that without this organization, Christ's followers would be without the leadership they needed to keep from being "as children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine." I don't know how much plainer it could possibly be, but that's just me.

 

[Katzpur]

Not sure what he was talking about and unless you know for sure you are just speculating. Maybe he wanted to start a branch of the Essenes there.

Whatever. I'll go with the straightforward meaning. He said He was going to build His Church, not a branch of some existing Church, but to each his own.

 

[Katzpur]

You can not hand Apostleship from one person to another.
Only GOD appoints an Apostle - one sent from God.

If you're an Apostle, you certainly can. If they did not have the authority to confer the apostleship upon future Apostles, how would the line continue? The Apostles did hand the Apostleship to other people, but they were guided by revelation as to the individual God wanted them to select.

 

[Katzpur]

The NT does say the Apostles ordained Bishops who have the authority to ordain other Bishops. Would that not make Bishops the successors of the Apostles? Now mind you, I'm not saying that the church can't become corrupt under Bishops, to me it did when political interests won out over Christian diversity when Orthodoxy was established by the Empire.

Where does it say that bishops have the authority to ordain other bishops? I'm not aware that it says that, but if you can point me to a specific citation, I'd be glad to know.

 

[esmith]

A Church is spiritual or at least it should be - not based on national political or any other human devised idea.
God takes HIS people from ALL nations Acts 10v35 so that squashes your assumption.
The only reason the Church started out with and fom jewish members was not because of their nationality but because the Jews were the only nation to keep and maintain GOD's SANCTIFIED and HOLY SABBATH.

The whole World has/is missing that vital point.

You keep referring to this "Church" and as of yet you have not said what faith this "Church" represents. I said that since Jesus of your NT was Jewish he must have been teaching the tenants of the Jewish faith as he saw them. As far as I know there were no other religious faiths, except for pagans, in the region under discussion. Was there another faith that Jesus was teaching?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Where does it say that bishops have the authority to ordain other bishops? I'm not aware that it says that, but if you can point me to a specific citation, I'd be glad to know.

1 You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, 2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. (2 Timothy 2:1-2)

Was Timothy an Apostle? No, he was a Bishop. Early church history in conjunction with scripture shows he was:

Timothy, so it is recorded, was the first to receive the episcopate of the parish in Ephesus, Titus of the churches in Crete. (Eusebius Ecclesiastical History 3.4.6)

As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine… (1 Timothy 1:3 ESV)

If this is correct that Timothy was a Bishop, and that Paul charged him to keep his doctrine and pass it on to other holy men who could do the same, does this not make Timothy, a bishop, Paul's successor?

 

[Beta]

The NT does say the Apostles ordained Bishops who have the authority to ordain other Bishops. Would that not make Bishops the successors of the Apostles? Now mind you, I'm not saying that the church can't become corrupt under Bishops, to me it did when political interests won out over Christian diversity when Orthodoxy was established by the Empire.

From scripture we see that JESUS called and ordained the original NT Apostles - and all authority was given him of God.
Bishops are not Apostles but have a lesser function in the Church which did eventually fall into corruption in AD 325 after the original Apostles had been persecuted and killed.
From then on we have the ' sunday worshipping christians ' built on a different Apostleship.

 

[Koldo]

Whatever. I'll go with the straightforward meaning. He said He was going to build His Church, not a branch of some existing Church, but to each his own.

Actually, that is not the straightforward meaning. Mainly because there is no straightforward meaning for that.