Question about God and Jesus

[John1.12]

I have Jewish friends who are Christian, who readily see and understand the OT in light of the Nt . Which is the point . The NT reveals the OT in light of Jesus revelation .
. Hebrews 1 .

1¶God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Most posts on here can be reduced down to one thing . " i don't trust the bible ( 66 books ) . We have many weird and creative explanations for the narrative . The more extreme explanations come from the folks who believe the bible less on percentage. Ranging from the' flying spaghetti monster 'crowd to the more academic ( Bart Erhman , Richard Carrier ) Either way the outcome is based on a scale of believing some parts of the bible in some sense to relegation to myths without investigation. A sort of a sweeping generalisation, along the lines of not understanding the world these primitives would hear thunder and thought that was the gods being angry . Or other such phenomenon. But now with the modern developments we can look back now at the bible and conclude what backward morons they must have been .
I believe the more you trust the bible the better you understand it .

 

[John1.12]

We're not looking at a report from history of some or other golden age ─ instead we're looking back at a myth of a golden age. Times differ, enough for us to have occasions when we remember things as better (for us) and worse (for us). Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Greece, Rome, and so on, had their years in the sun and then declined. No wonder they all had versions of a remembered golden age.
Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian? Or are we talking fringe here?
We must then agree to disagree. I find that view untenable. I can't see how Jesus could have been called a messiah in the Jewish sense, for a start, having nothing in common with the Jewish understanding of the word, and being nominal founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other,.

//Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian? Or are we talking fringe here?//
The majority of Christians were Jewish . until After Acts 7 . Which is ten years after Acts 2 . The diciples are amazed when the Gentiles start being saved .

 

[John1.12]

We're not looking at a report from history of some or other golden age ─ instead we're looking back at a myth of a golden age. Times differ, enough for us to have occasions when we remember things as better (for us) and worse (for us). Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Greece, Rome, and so on, had their years in the sun and then declined. No wonder they all had versions of a remembered golden age.
Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian? Or are we talking fringe here?
We must then agree to disagree. I find that view untenable. I can't see how Jesus could have been called a messiah in the Jewish sense, for a start, having nothing in common with the Jewish understanding of the word, and being nominal founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other,.

//
founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other,.//
Could you give an example of this in the NT ? Where are the diciples doing this in the NT ? Where is Jesus teaching this in the NT ?

 

[John1.12]

We're not looking at a report from history of some or other golden age ─ instead we're looking back at a myth of a golden age. Times differ, enough for us to have occasions when we remember things as better (for us) and worse (for us). Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Greece, Rome, and so on, had their years in the sun and then declined. No wonder they all had versions of a remembered golden age.
Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian? Or are we talking fringe here?
We must then agree to disagree. I find that view untenable. I can't see how Jesus could have been called a messiah in the Jewish sense, for a start, having nothing in common with the Jewish understanding of the word, and being nominal founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other,.

All the way up to Acts 7 the NT focus is the jews , by Jews . All of the writers are Jews . Jesus commands the dicipes only to go to the Jews. His entire earthly programme is to Israel . You can not get more Jewish than the four Gospels . The majority of the focus of the NT is about Israel .

 

[blü 2]

//Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian?

I was puzzled by your remark above "I have Jewish friends who are Christian".

founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other. Could you give an example of this in the NT ?

It appears that particular favorites of antisemitic Christians were (and presumably are) ─

Matthew 27:24: So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." 25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" 26 Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

John 8:44 (where Jesus says to the Jews) “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”

More >here<.

The point is not whether the passages are capable of innocent explanations, but rather that God put such ammunition in the hands of antisemites, while at the same time founding a religion that never took hold among Jews but became popular with pagans ─ a very odd credential for a messiah to have.

 

[John1.12]

I was puzzled by your remark above "I have Jewish friends who are Christian".
It appears that particular favorites of antisemitic Christians were (and presumably are) ─

Matthew 27:24: So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." 25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" 26 Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

John 8:44 (where Jesus says to the Jews) “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”

More >here<.

The point is not whether the passages are capable of innocent explanations, but rather that God put such ammunition in the hands of antisemites, while at the same time founding a religion that never took hold among Jews but became popular with pagans ─ a very odd credential for a messiah to have.

When Jesus is speaking to Jews and chastising them ,its not because they are Jews . Its because " You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”So what your doing is seeing the ' You 'and concluding that Jesus is referring to their race . Isn't this the very accusation your accusing others of? Jesus is hardly picking on them because they are Jewish ,seeing as he was Jewish and came to save Israel .
Yes many people will use materials to suit their agenda. The bible is regularly misused this way . Its not God's fault the way folks interpret the bible . Take your interpretation of it for example.

 

[John1.12]

I was puzzled by your remark above "I have Jewish friends who are Christian".
It appears that particular favorites of antisemitic Christians were (and presumably are) ─

Matthew 27:24: So when Pilate saw that he was gaining nothing, but rather that a riot was beginning, he took water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to it yourselves." 25 And all the people answered, "His blood be on us and on our children!" 26 Then he released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

John 8:44 (where Jesus says to the Jews) “You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”

More >here<.

The point is not whether the passages are capable of innocent explanations, but rather that God put such ammunition in the hands of antisemites, while at the same time founding a religion that never took hold among Jews but became popular with pagans ─ a very odd credential for a messiah to have.

Arnold fruchtenbaum. Is a great example of a Jewish Christian .

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, Genesis 2:16 says God "commanded" Adam, but the message to Adam is phrased as a warning, not as a command. Genesis 2:17 says ─

"but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die." [RSV]​

The point is that Adam (and, shortly, Eve) had no knowledge of good and evil (as the name of the tree and the unfolding of the story make clear).

Therefore they did not know right from wrong because that knowledge had been withheld from them.

Therefore they were incapable of forming an intention to do wrong.

And without that intention, that consciousness of wrongdoing, you can't sin.

They simply had no way of knowing that, whether it was a warning or a command, disobeying it was wrong,

And that remained the case until AFTER they'd eaten the fruit.

This view is reinforced by God's conduct ─ "sin" is never mentioned, not even once.


By the way, do you think it's a good thing or a bad thing that humans know the difference between good and evil, right and wrong,

Or would you prefer humans to remain as they're portrayed at the start of the story, without any inkling of the concept of good and the concept of evil?

My own view is that awareness of right and wrong is at the roots of our humanity and morality. So Eve, although she's just a character in a story, is symbolically a heroine of humankind,

God TOLD them right from wrong when He told them not to eat from that tree. Eve did not believe Jehovah that she would die. She knew what God said. The serpent, the Devil, told her she wouldn't die. She died.

 

[YoursTrue]

We're not looking at a report from history of some or other golden age ─ instead we're looking back at a myth of a golden age. Times differ, enough for us to have occasions when we remember things as better (for us) and worse (for us). Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Greece, Rome, and so on, had their years in the sun and then declined. No wonder they all had versions of a remembered golden age.
Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian? Or are we talking fringe here?
We must then agree to disagree. I find that view untenable. I can't see how Jesus could have been called a messiah in the Jewish sense, for a start, having nothing in common with the Jewish understanding of the word, and being nominal founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other,.

Again, the statue of Jesus nailed to a cross was hanging on a wall of a big church I went into. So now I must ask, why do you think Jesus died?

 

[YoursTrue]

We're not looking at a report from history of some or other golden age ─ instead we're looking back at a myth of a golden age. Times differ, enough for us to have occasions when we remember things as better (for us) and worse (for us). Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Greece, Rome, and so on, had their years in the sun and then declined. No wonder they all had versions of a remembered golden age.
Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian? Or are we talking fringe here?
We must then agree to disagree. I find that view untenable. I can't see how Jesus could have been called a messiah in the Jewish sense, for a start, having nothing in common with the Jewish understanding of the word, and being nominal founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other,.

Nominal Christianity has been guity of many things not good. I agree.

 

[YoursTrue]

When Jesus is speaking to Jews and chastising them ,its not because they are Jews . Its because " You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”So what your doing is seeing the ' You 'and concluding that Jesus is referring to their race . Isn't this the very accusation your accusing others of? Jesus is hardly picking on them because they are Jewish ,seeing as he was Jewish and came to save Israel .
Yes many people will use materials to suit their agenda. The bible is regularly misused this way . Its not God's fault the way folks interpret the bible . Take your interpretation of it for example.

Thank you for your comment. Jesus was born as a Jew. He died as a Jew. He preached mainly to the Jews. Among the Jews, of course, were various beliefs and groups such as the Pharisees and Saducees. He upheld his Father's viewpoint, not teachings that went against his heavenly father's viewpoint. .
But then we have to ask ourselves, what did Jesus pray for? Many people are familiar with what is called the Lord's Prayer.

 

[YoursTrue]

Most posts on here can be reduced down to one thing . " i don't trust the bible ( 66 books ) . We have many weird and creative explanations for the narrative . The more extreme explanations come from the folks who believe the bible less on percentage. Ranging from the' flying spaghetti monster 'crowd to the more academic ( Bart Erhman , Richard Carrier ) Either way the outcome is based on a scale of believing some parts of the bible in some sense to relegation to myths without investigation. A sort of a sweeping generalisation, along the lines of not understanding the world these primitives would hear thunder and thought that was the gods being angry . Or other such phenomenon. But now with the modern developments we can look back now at the bible and conclude what backward morons they must have been .
I believe the more you trust the bible the better you understand it .

Don't forget the Ethiopian eunuch who asked how could he understand the scripture if nobody could teach it to him? (Or something like that.) Thanks for your comment again, btw, nice point.

 

[YoursTrue]

Eve was created after the rule and gets it wrong as she added “touching “ but that wasn’t in the rule.

It is reasoned that Adam wanted to protect her when he told her what God told him, of course. So it's possible that he told her not to even go near it -- not to touch it -- either way, she knew she was not supposed to eat from that tree.

 

[John1.12]

Thank you for your comment. Jesus was born as a Jew. He died as a Jew. He preached mainly to the Jews. Among the Jews, of course, were various beliefs and groups such as the Pharisees and Saducees. He upheld his Father's viewpoint, not teachings that went against his heavenly father's viewpoint. .
But then we have to ask ourselves, what did Jesus pray for? Many people are familiar with what is called the Lord's Prayer.

I believe the prayer Jesus gave to his diciples was a prayer for them . Its a Jewish prayer even .

 

[blü 2]

When Jesus is speaking to Jews and chastising them ,its not because they are Jews . Its because " You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning ... he is a liar and the father of lies.”So what your doing is seeing the ' You 'and concluding that Jesus is referring to their race . Isn't this the very accusation your accusing others of? Jesus is hardly picking on them because they are Jewish ,seeing as he was Jewish and came to save Israel .
Yes many people will use materials to suit their agenda. The bible is regularly misused this way . Its not God's fault the way folks interpret the bible . Take your interpretation of it for example.

It's God's fault that [his] planning for his Chosen People is so inept that the Jesus mission results in their persecution for the next two millennia. With gods like that on your side, who needs enemies?

 

[blü 2]

God TOLD them right from wrong when He told them not to eat from that tree.

There's no part of the story where God explains to Adam or Eve what right is and what wrong is. Instead the story is specific that neither has knowledge of good or evil UNTIL they've eaten the fruit of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and only at that point "their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked".

Eve did not believe Jehovah that she would die. She knew what God said. The serpent, the Devil, told her she wouldn't die. She died.

That's not what the story says. First, the story doesn't identify the snake with the devil. Second, the snake tells no lies. Third, Eve simply took him at his word. Fourth, the threat was NOT that they would die ─ they were always going to die, implicit in Genesis 3:22-23 ─ but that "in the day that you eat of it you will die". And that simply didn't happen, just as the snake said.

Incidentally, don't you think it's a wholly excellent thing that humans can distinguish good from evil? Don't you think that, though it's only a story, Eve is one of mankind?

Again, the statue of Jesus nailed to a cross was hanging on a wall of a big church I went into. So now I must ask, why do you think Jesus died?

He died because that was what he set out to do. The stories agree that his mission was always meant to end in death, and he expressly refuses chances to escape,

But why it was necessary for him to die, I have no idea. Indeed, I even ran a thread on the question why it was necessary for a benevolent and omnipotent God to sacrifice [his] son to [him]self, which after more than 400 posts gave no answer, the ones nearest to reason denying that God was benevolent, and thus presumably simply wilful.

Nominal Christianity has been guity of many things not good. I agree.

It seems a singularly disastrous outcome for one claimed to be a Jewish "messiah".

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I can't see how Jesus could have been called a messiah in the Jewish sense, for a start, having nothing in common with the Jewish understanding of the word

I’m going to try this w/ you one more time...

How exactly is Isaiah 25:8 going to be fulfilled, where it says Jehovah God will “swallow up death forever”, using the Jewish interpretation of the Messiah?

Its obvious from looking at their (Mosaic) Law, that animal blood sacrifices were required to atone for their sin, yet not completely.... they had to continue offering them. But God required those sacrifices, didn’t He? Why? (God’s omnipotence has no bearing on God overlooking sin. He can’t. I think even the Tanakh mentions that.)

It should have stressed to the Israelites, seeing all those animals die, the severity of the situation they were in.... they needed a way out. The purpose of the Messiah played a far grander role than even those Jews realized. It went far beyond just the establishment of a Jewish state! It was to accomplish God’s will, part of which was to fulfill Isaiah 25:8, the ‘swallowing up death forever.’ To fulfill this, required the death of the perfect Messiah, to propitiate fully what Adam had lost for his progeny: perfect, everlasting life. (The entire human race, not just Israelites/Jews, are to be blessed [Genesis 22:18.]) I noticed you’ve never commented on the fact of A&E’s immediate offspring, for several generations after, living for centuries.... how? Why?
When all living humans are granted what Adam lost, i.e.,everlasting life, (Revelation 21:3-4), then death will be ‘swallowed up forever.’

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't believe they're more than folk stories. in particular, I think the Garden story is a narrative (not historical) link between the creation story and the beginning of Hebrew folk history, and is symbolically the childhood of mankind up to adolescence (eating the fruit), the age where the pressure starts for you to find a partner and a job.

But separately from that, the story is incapable of justifying the Christian notion of "original sin" and the "fall of man" ─ it very simply is NOT about those things.

I'm not going to discuss original sin now, but rather the idea that it is very, v-e-r-y clear that men (mankind) is not capable of directing itself in a positive direction towards bettering the earth. According to science, earth is physically environmentally on the brink of irreversible disaster. This did not happen because of animals. Or plants. Or earthquakes.

 

[YoursTrue]

There's no part of the story where God explains to Adam or Eve what right is and what wrong is. Instead the story is specific that neither has knowledge of good or evil UNTIL they've eaten the fruit of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and only at that point "their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked".
That's not what the story says. First, the story doesn't identify the snake with the devil. Second, the snake tells no lies. Third, Eve simply took him at his word. Fourth, the threat was NOT that they would die ─ they were always going to die, implicit in Genesis 3:22-23 ─ but that "in the day that you eat of it you will die". And that simply didn't happen, just as the snake said.

Let me put it this way: there are governments instituted on the earth. They decide what is right and wrong for its inhabitants. Some obey the governmental laws, some do not.

 

[YoursTrue]

We're not looking at a report from history of some or other golden age ─ instead we're looking back at a myth of a golden age. Times differ, enough for us to have occasions when we remember things as better (for us) and worse (for us). Anatolia, Mesopotamia, Egypt, the Indus Valley, Greece, Rome, and so on, had their years in the sun and then declined. No wonder they all had versions of a remembered golden age.
Curious. If I may ask, under what circumstances may a Jew be a Christian? Or are we talking fringe here?
We must then agree to disagree. I find that view untenable. I can't see how Jesus could have been called a messiah in the Jewish sense, for a start, having nothing in common with the Jewish understanding of the word, and being nominal founder of a religion that has been guilty of more and more systematic and often murderous antisemitism than any other,.

Do you know what the word messiah means? Or put another way, what is a messiah?