Question about God and Jesus

[nPeace]

Good so that means you know what you think.
Tell me what you think then.
Should God pardon the human race based on the fact that they repent... should they now be exempt from death? How can God do that, without breaking the law written in his "law book"? Should God rewrite his laws? What would doing so say about God's authority as ruler?

Seems like Frank doesn't know what he thinks either.
So rather than leave the question hanging...

God explicitly stated his law. Death was the penalty for sin - disobedience to God.
Because Adam missed the mark of God's righteous standards, he could only pass on sin and death to his offspring. Not one of them could be righteous before God, and none of them could be free from the wages of sin - death.
God could not reverse that, simply by going against his law.
He thus made a way that man could be pardoned, and gain freedom.
That way out, was to provide a ransom.- a price paid to buy back or to bring about release from some obligation or undesirable circumstance.
Jesus took the place of all mankind. He paid the price, and died that they might live - the real life - free of sin and death.

God thus demonstrated his love, wisdom and justice, also his power. He balanced these perfectly.

Since Jesus' death was not permanent, and his and God's pain was temporary... ours will be too. Nothing was lost, but everything was gained. - 1 Corinthians 15:20-28
Right now, God can declare people righteous, because the price was paid.

 

[Bree]

Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam does not believe in original sin. The Qur'an says that Adam was created from the beginning to live and die on earth. For this reason, before the creation of man, when God informs the angels of the creation of man, God introduces the place of man's residence as the earth. (30: 2)
According to the Qur'an, the story of Adam and Eve living in Paradise and eating from the forbidden tree and exposing their nakedness was just a stage in the path of man in the path of establishment and residence on earth. That is, man was created from the beginning to live on earth, and through his establishment on earth, he went through stages such as temporary residence in a material paradise (not the promised paradise) outside the earth.

Hi @Vahid Yes its good to see that there are some similarities in what Gods Word the Holy Bible says and what is written in the Quran.
In the bible God proclaims this at Psalm 115 Vs 16 As for the heavens, they belong to Jehovah,+ But the earth he has given to the sons of men.+

Earth was most certainly a home for Gods physical creations. We adore the earth...it is a very special place in the universe and the creation of mankind here shows that Gods intention was for mankind to dwell here. He made it to be enjoyable for us so that we could live in happiness.
In Genesis 1vs28 God specifies a blessing on the man and woman
"Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth+ and subdue it"

The earth was to be a 'blessing' from God. That first couple were blessed with the task of 'filling' the earth with their offspring. But nowhere in the genesis account do we hear that heavenly life would ever be a blessing for them. No, rather they are told that if they disobey they will die....it doesnt say anything about getting more blessings from God. Death is only mentioned as a punishment for disobedience. So its not logical to believe that death is a blessing to a better place. Its simply not in Gods plan for mankind to live in heaven.

He needs his physical creations to live on the physical earth.

 

[Muffled]

If God is all powerful.Why did Jesus have to die on the cross for us and go through so much pain?Why didn't God make our salvation happen a different way?

I believe the answer comes n the garden of Gethsemane: There is no other way.

 

[Muffled]

I think God knows a lot more than I do so I will not try to guess why he does what he does.

I believe one does not need to guess when He tells us directly what He is doing.

 

[Muffled]

Because we all need to find liberation through our own individual growth and effort. Jesus has nothing to do with that.

I believe that is not true Jesus has a lot to do with that. One may not learn good ways unless one has a good teacher.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If God is all powerful.Why did Jesus have to die on the cross for us and go through so much pain?Why didn't God make our salvation happen a different way?

I would add, “And if he wanted to die, why did Jesus run from death on multiple occasions and when it was obvious the cops had him, suddenly it’s all‘Take this cup from me’?”

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The simple answer:
Because, just as Jehovah expects us to follow certain standards, He holds Himself to those same standards. He doesn’t “cut corners.”

Lol. God and Jesus both are remarkable hypocrites.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Isn't just reading about the rebellion good enough? Disobeying God....that wasn't / isn't sin?

No, it’s not. God says that unlike people, He sees what is in your heart. This is why it doesn’t treat kids as fully moral beings until they age up. This is why we separate manslaughter from murder. Motive is everything, even though the Bible is inconsistent.

 

[George-ananda]

I believe that is not true Jesus has a lot to do with that. One may not learn good ways unless one has a good teacher.

Now that I do agree with.

 

[YoursTrue]

Unlike Christianity and Judaism, Islam does not believe in original sin. The Qur'an says that Adam was created from the beginning to live and die on earth. For this reason, before the creation of man, when God informs the angels of the creation of man, God introduces the place of man's residence as the earth. (30: 2)
According to the Qur'an, the story of Adam and Eve living in Paradise and eating from the forbidden tree and exposing their nakedness was just a stage in the path of man in the path of establishment and residence on earth. That is, man was created from the beginning to live on earth, and through his establishment on earth, he went through stages such as temporary residence in a material paradise (not the promised paradise) outside the earth.

Of course, the Qur'an mentions the prohibition of Adam and Eve from eating the fruit of a particular tree, but it does not consider it a sin that is inherited to all his children, but God says: O Adam, whenever you approach this tree From here you descend to the earth, of course I know that you will finally fall from the tree at your own will and descend. Perhaps with this prohibition, God wants to show Adam that he has a cunning enemy (Satan) who does not want his good, and before he fell to earth, he experienced the painful effects of disobeying God's commands and following Satan. And experience the way of repentance.

Peace. We are discussing evolution on another thread, but your post leaves a question about what you are saying. Allow me to ask, do you then believe that Adam was created to sin and die? (There are many questions...)

 

[YoursTrue]

No, it’s not. God says that unlike people, He sees what is in your heart. This is why it doesn’t treat kids as fully moral beings until they age up. This is why we separate manslaughter from murder. Motive is everything, even though the Bible is inconsistent.

Right now in today's world, and yesterday's world, we know even infants die.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, it’s not. God says that unlike people, He sees what is in your heart. This is why it doesn’t treat kids as fully moral beings until they age up. This is why we separate manslaughter from murder. Motive is everything, even though the Bible is inconsistent.

Also, in the Bible, there is the mandate given by Moses for what is called "cities of refuge." That is the place that an unintentional manslayer could escape without being killed as a punishment for another man's death. You are probably familiar with that. There were stipulations and distinctions, however, that were to be obeyed by the priests and population for unintentional killing. Numbers chapter 35 has an interesting account of this stipulation given to the Israelites.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

First, that's not what the text says, or suggests. Second. if they were innocent then God has no argument with them,
I'd say they never had any reason to think about being naked; certainly they had no capacity to think it was right or wrong.
There's no point at which a being deprived of the knowledge of good and evil can be said to rebel.
They only lost their innocence, their ignorance of good and evil, AFTER they'd each eaten the fruit.
That's part of the reason why I think the actual meaning of the Garden story is to account for the infancy of humankind to fill the narrative gap between their creation by God and the beginning of Hebrew folk history. And why the eating of the fruit represents the adolescence of humankind and the oncoming of sexual awareness and thus the (native) sense of modesty.
And pointed out that it wasn't a command but a warning ─ "lest you die [the same day]".
They didn't die the same day, and thus they didn't die as God had warned. Eve spoke the truth and the snake spoke the truth.

Instead they died (in the story) hundreds of years down the track.

As they were always going to. There's no suggestion anywhere in the story that Adam and Eve were going to live forever. On the exact contrary, they were kicked out of the Garden to prevent them from doing exactly that (Genesis 3:22-23) AND for no other reason.
"Beguiled" in my RSV, but close enough. But of course she was mistaken, since the snake at no point says anything that isn't true.
For disobedience to be wrong, you have to have knowledge of right and wrong, and of course neither of Eve or Adam had that till AFTER they'd eaten the fruit. So at the time they ate the fruit, each was incapable of sin, since each was incapable of intention to do wrong.

Eve “was mistaken “?
You’re so adamant about what is “specifically” stated in the text, but here you add stuff.

blu2, it’s disheartening when I show you that what Jehovah God said about not eating the fruit was a “command” — twice its described as a command — but you gloss over it. Your desire to impugn God’s honesty is not lost on me.

I was trying to restrict my replies only using the Hebrew Scriptures (not the ‘NT’), but really, you have no respect for any of the Scriptures, and certainly no respect for the Hebrew / Christian God, Yahweh.

So I’m not going to continue trying to reason w/ you on this subject....you won’t accept outright, specific Scriptural statements; it’s a fruitless endeavor.

So long. Maybe we can engage on another topic, but I don’t know.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I would add, “And if he wanted to die, why did Jesus run from death on multiple occasions and when it was obvious the cops had him, suddenly it’s all‘Take this cup from me’?”

Many reasons, but here is one....

What did Jesus say while he was dying, and they’d given him that sour wine? He said, “It is finished”

Prior to that, the prophecies concerning him were not finished., i.e., not all fulfilled.

 

[blü 2]

Eve “was mistaken “?

What else would "beguiled' indicate?

blu2, it’s disheartening when I show you that what Jehovah God said about not eating the fruit was a “command”

I simply said what's correct ─ it was NOT given to Adam as a command but as a warning. Its command nature is not evident the only time Adam was actually told it.

AND it wouldn't matter anyway whether it was a command or not. If you're in the position that Adam and Eve are placed in in the story, where knowledge of what's right and what's wrong is specifically denied to you, then you don't know that (if it be a command) disobeying a command is wrong.

Really, you have no respect for the Scriptures, and certainly no respect for the Hebrew God, Yahweh.

I dare say we each think we have more respect for the text that the other.

One last try.

POINT 1

How can you sin without intending to do wrong? ─ that is, without any awareness of wrongdoing?

I say you plainly can't. Without conceding the 'command' point AT THE TIME IT WAS GIVEN, let's say it was a command. If you don't know right from wrong, how are you expected to know that it's wrong to disobey a command? How are you expected to know that anything is wrong?

POINT 2

NOWHERE in the story does it mention sin, original sin, the fall of man, death entering the world, spiritual death, or the need for a redeemer. God clearly states [his] reason for chucking Adam and Eve out the Garden and IT DOES NOT INCLUDE SIN OR DISOBEDIENCE ─ but to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and becoming like God. Genesis 3:22-23, as I've mentioned several times.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

let's say it was a command. If you don't know right from wrong, how are you expected to know that it's wrong to disobey a command? How are you expected to know that anything is wrong?

So...Jehovah God created them, but He is clueless about their (A&E’s) abilities?

Sorry, but that is ridiculous.

And you’re saying you believe the fruit was endowed with some kind of “magical properties”?

Well, I won’t hold that against you... I mean, the account does have a talking snake, without explaining who was behind it. I do wish the account was more explicit.

But this is where we need the *Entire* Bible, not just the first 39 books.

IMO, if a person limits themselves to only the Hebrew Scriptures, they’ll never find the truth. They won’t be able to accurately understand the prophecies of Genesis 3:15, Psalms 16:10, Isaiah 11:6-9, Isaiah 35, Micah 2:1-4, Daniel 2, etc., etc., etc....

It all relates together. Because the God of the Hebrews, is the same God of the Christians!
Unfortunately, Christendom (with their trinitarian dogma) has muddied the waters in that regard.

Good night, my cousin.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I guess I need a study group on this one.Because I am just not getting it.

I don't know how to answer questions.

You know what? Frank, you certainly are humble! That’s a great quality to have, for learning!

I have a new respect for you...I will try to have more patience toward you.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[blü 2]

So...Jehovah God created them, but He is clueless about their (A&E’s) abilities?

No, [he]'s deliberately denied them knowledge of Good and Evil and [he]'s deliberately denied them eternal life ─ as the names of the two trees make clear.

And the reason [he]'s done so is set out in Genesis 3:22-23 which reads (with my emphases:

22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil;
​

ie Adam and Eve had not previously known about good and evil, not till they ate the fruit,

and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever"
​

That is, the only reason God expels them from the Garden is to keep them from immortality

─ 23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken.​

And you’re saying you believe the fruit was endowed with some kind of “magical properties”?

Yes, I think it's unambiguous that they didn't have knowledge of Good and Evil UNTIL they each ate the fruit. See the quote above, and remember that only after they'd eaten the fruit did they realize they were naked ie that it was wrong / immodest to be naked.

But this is where we need the *Entire* Bible, not just the first 39 books.

Ah, we must again disagree. I think the NT is from an entirely different culture and theology from the Tanakh. And if you ask your Jewish friends, my guess is that they'll say that's so.

Put it this way ─ I'd guess you'd think it at the least inappropriate for Jewish people to tell you what the NT means. And I think that's a two-way street.

Good night, my cousin.

Go well, my friend.

 

[John1.12]

>I've just run a thread<, on this very question and with more than 400 replies already gone, I can tell you that no one has come up with an answer appropriate to a benevolent omnipotent God.

The only ones that come near to making sense drop the benevolence bit.

There was also a total failure to respond to the proposition that human sacrifice is a moral outrage, not to be countenanced in any civilized society.

One of the things that stood out was reliance on the idea that the Garden story in Genesis is about the Fall of Man. Of course if you've read it, you'll know it never once mentions sin, original sin, the Fall of Man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer. Nowhere. Not even once. In the story God states his reasons for chucking Adam and Eve out, very clearly (at Genesis 3:22-23) and they have nothing to do with sin. The idea that sin in involved appears to have risen among the Jews of Alexandria late in the 2nd century BCE, is mentioned once by Paul, but only becomes a big deal when Augustine of Hippo picks up the idea and runs with it around 400 CE. Not just nonsense but a dang pity, if you ask me.

And if you think sin can be inherited, check out Ezekiel 18:20.

What happened then after God said everything was 'good 'to then what we see after 'the fall ' . And do we need the exact words you mentioned to convey the same thing ?
Benevolence? which verse or verses are you thinking of . Could you share from scripture what you mean ?
Which verse

 

[John1.12]

>I've just run a thread<, on this very question and with more than 400 replies already gone, I can tell you that no one has come up with an answer appropriate to a benevolent omnipotent God.

The only ones that come near to making sense drop the benevolence bit.

There was also a total failure to respond to the proposition that human sacrifice is a moral outrage, not to be countenanced in any civilized society.

One of the things that stood out was reliance on the idea that the Garden story in Genesis is about the Fall of Man. Of course if you've read it, you'll know it never once mentions sin, original sin, the Fall of Man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer. Nowhere. Not even once. In the story God states his reasons for chucking Adam and Eve out, very clearly (at Genesis 3:22-23) and they have nothing to do with sin. The idea that sin in involved appears to have risen among the Jews of Alexandria late in the 2nd century BCE, is mentioned once by Paul, but only becomes a big deal when Augustine of Hippo picks up the idea and runs with it around 400 CE. Not just nonsense but a dang pity, if you ask me.

And if you think sin can be inherited, check out Ezekiel 18:20.

Essentially Genesis is about everything being Good to bad . The cause of this is after Eve is deceived. Then everything goes bad .