Putin Announces Assault

[Terrywoodenpic]

Does anyone else here sense that some are trying to justify involving Ameristan in yet another interventionist foreign war that could go very badly for us?

America has made no moves to enter the war. Nor does it want to.
However if a NATO country is attacked they will have no choice. That is the essence of the treaty.

 

[Revoltingest]

Does anyone else here sense that some are trying to justify involving Ameristan in yet another interventionist foreign war that could go very badly for us?

No, not in this case.
I've heard no war cries, even from my
most bone headed right wing friends.

 

[Stevicus]

America has made no moves to enter the war. Nor does it want to.
However if a NATO country is attacked they will have no choice. That is the essence of the treaty.

Well, yes, that's obvious. But we had the choice to withdraw from the treaty, or we could have disbanded NATO at the same time the Warsaw Pact disbanded. It's reason for existing had become irrelevant. Instead, we chose to expand NATO which the Russians saw as an encroachment and a threat to their security. We may not see it that way, but I can see how they would see it that way.

My only point is, if we can at least try to understand their point of view here, we might be able to find a peaceful solution to this mess. But to keep going on with the war fever talk isn't helping. That's how nations end up going to war, when people keep trying to stoke a war fever and suggest that anyone who isn't, must be on the enemy's side.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Well, yes, that's obvious. But we had the choice to withdraw from the treaty, or we could have disbanded NATO at the same time the Warsaw Pact disbanded. It's reason for existing had become irrelevant. Instead, we chose to expand NATO which the Russians saw as an encroachment and a threat to their security. We may not see it that way, but I can see how they would see it that way.

My only point is, if we can at least try to understand their point of view here, we might be able to find a peaceful solution to this mess. But to keep going on with the war fever talk isn't helping. That's how nations end up going to war, when people keep trying to stoke a war fever and suggest that anyone who isn't, must be on the enemy's side.

It is not a point of view, but a full invasion of a sovereign country that we have to deal with.

 

[Stevicus]

It is not a point of view, but a full invasion of a sovereign country that we have to deal with.

It is a point of view. After all, we don't "deal with" every invasion of every sovereign country that happens. We pick and choose which we consider worthy of attention and involvement, as opposed to those of lesser importance. This would indicate varied perceptions of different countries and regions, which would imply a point of view.

All of the rhetoric we're seeing here from the West as it applies to this situation is predicated on the assumption and deeply held belief that "we" are the good guys and "they" are the bad guys. We are the sheriff's posse, and they are the outlaws.

That assumption has to be present in order for you to say "it is not a point of view," since the only salient point in your mind appears to be that a sovereign nation is being invaded, and somehow that saddles us with the responsibility of having to "deal with it" (even though it's not my nation or your nation).

I'm also noticing a certain "those-who-are-not-with-us-are-against-us" attitude descending on the discussion, equating loyalty to America with loyalty to Ukraine. The insinuation is that, unless someone demonstrates 100% loyalty to Ukraine and its government, it's the same thing as treason against America. I don't countenance such tactics.

 

[muhammad_isa]

It is a point of view. After all, we don't "deal with" every invasion of every sovereign country that happens. We pick and choose which we consider worthy of attention and involvement, as opposed to those of lesser importance. This would indicate varied perceptions of different countries and regions, which would imply a point of view.

I would have thought it is about "containing" war that seems to have dire consequence if it's left to its own devices.

That assumption has to be present in order for you to say "it is not a point of view," since the only salient point in your mind appears to be that a sovereign nation is being invaded, and somehow that saddles us with the responsibility of having to "deal with it" (even though it's not my nation or your nation).

It's an increasingly global world. What's happening in another part of the world affects all of us.
NATO exists for a reason. World war sparked off in Europe. Do you assume that US is somehow immune if it were to occur this time round?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It is a point of view. After all, we don't "deal with" every invasion of every sovereign country that happens. We pick and choose which we consider worthy of attention and involvement, as opposed to those of lesser importance. This would indicate varied perceptions of different countries and regions, which would imply a point of view.

All of the rhetoric we're seeing here from the West as it applies to this situation is predicated on the assumption and deeply held belief that "we" are the good guys and "they" are the bad guys. We are the sheriff's posse, and they are the outlaws.

That assumption has to be present in order for you to say "it is not a point of view," since the only salient point in your mind appears to be that a sovereign nation is being invaded, and somehow that saddles us with the responsibility of having to "deal with it" (even though it's not my nation or your nation).

I'm also noticing a certain "those-who-are-not-with-us-are-against-us" attitude descending on the discussion, equating loyalty to America with loyalty to Ukraine. The insinuation is that, unless someone demonstrates 100% loyalty to Ukraine and its government, it's the same thing as treason against America. I don't countenance such tactics.

Not being American I am getting very little feed back from the USA.
Though it seems many European and Americans are joining their foreign legion as fighters.
So it is more than just thought or opinion. People are prepared to put their lives on the line.

Others like yourself seem to be happy to be apologists for Putin.

 

[Stevicus]

I would have thought it is about "containing" war that seems to have dire consequence if it's left to its own devices.

That's the usual justification, based on dubious ideas such as the "Domino Theory" which has dominated US foreign policymaking since WW2. It's an absurdly notion based on the assumption that every world leader who goes to war has some secret plan to conquer the world. It's the same thought processes as those who wear tinfoil hats.

It's an increasingly global world. What's happening in another part of the world affects all of us.
NATO exists for a reason. World war sparked off in Europe. Do you assume that US is somehow immune if it were to occur this time round?

No, the US is never immune to any of this. That much is obvious.

 

[Stevicus]

Not being American I am getting very little feed back from the USA.
Though it seems many European and Americans are joining their foreign legion as fighters.
So it is more than just thought or opinion. People are prepared to put their lives on the line.

Okay, if that's their choice, then so be it. I don't know what that has to do with our current discussion.

Others like yourself seem to be happy to be apologists for Putin.

Your attempt at provocation is duly noted.