Putin Announces Assault

[Revoltingest]

Just looking at the facts.

There are infinitely many facts to select from.
You chose those few for some reason.

The assumption here is that, whenever a world power or leader decides to send troops into a sovereign country, it automatically means that they will invade other countries. Such an act should be considered evidence of a desire for world conquest.

In order to support such an assumption, you would have to provide evidence that such a thing has happened in every historical instance of a country sending troops into another country. That's why I mentioned Panama, because there was an instance of a country sending in troops which did not lead to world conquest.

Since you have not done so, then your assumptions about Putin could be totally false and off the mark.

Are you making invasion of Panama & invasion of
Ukraine equivalent, or do you see any significant
& germane differences?

 

[Stevicus]

Are you deliberately ignoring Putin's veiled threat to use nukes if anyone tries to interfere with his operations in Europe? How about his threat of military and economic action against Sweden and Finland if they try to join NATO? How can you continue to defend Russian actions?

I'm not ignoring anything. In fact, I would say that my view of the situation is more complete and objective than what I've been seeing from many people in this and other threads. I'm trying to look at both sides here, and to be fair and objective towards both. I consider myself neutral, and if you're upset with me because I don't see it in the same way as those who appear to be gripped by war fever, then I'm truly sorry.

That said, talk is cheap. World leaders and other politicians say all kinds of things, although since he does have his finger on a nuclear trigger, then perhaps we should try to be a bit more clear-headed about this. This is serious.

Your "those-who-are-not-with-us-are-against-us" attitude is toxic. I respectfully request that you please stop this line of provocative questioning.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I'm not ignoring anything. In fact, I would say that my view of the situation is more complete and objective than what I've been seeing from many people in this and other threads. I'm trying to look at both sides here, and to be fair and objective towards both. I consider myself neutral, and if you're upset with me because I don't see it in the same way as those who appear to be gripped by war fever, then I'm truly sorry.

That said, talk is cheap. World leaders and other politicians say all kinds of things, although since he does have his finger on a nuclear trigger, then perhaps we should try to be a bit more clear-headed about this. This is serious.

Your "those-who-are-not-with-us-are-against-us" attitude is toxic. I respectfully request that you please stop this line of provocative questioning.

Except Putin had gone beyond words and initiated warfare. Are we now to ignore his words about Sweden and Finland?

 

[Kooky]

Except Putin had gone beyond words and initiated warfare

So has the US in the past.
Or are we going to ignore the last two decades of world history because it is suddenly convenient?

The US has shown us what it is like to be a great imperialist nuclear power.
It is only natural that other imperialist nuclear powers want to do likewise.

Whether any of these imperialist wars have ever been a good thing for anybody, I leave as an exercise to the reader.

 

[Wandering Monk]

So has the US in the past.
Or are we going to ignore the last two decades of world history because it is suddenly convenient?

The US has shown us what it is like to be a great imperialist nuclear power.
It is only natural that other imperialist nuclear powers want to do likewise.

Whether any of these imperialist wars have ever been a good thing for anybody, I leave as an exercise to the reader.

Noted. Does that justify Putin's attack on Ukraine?

 

[Stevicus]

There are infinitely many facts to select from.
You chose those few for some reason.

Are you making invasion of Panama & invasion of
Ukraine equivalent, or do you see any significant
& germane differences?

No, not an equivalent. My only point here is that people choose to believe whatever they wish, oftentimes without evidence or even much of a rationale to justify it. There's all kinds of wild speculation, rumor, propaganda, Russophobia, and all kinds of other shenanigans and BS that brings back memories of the Cold War.

But okay, let's clear all that aside. Let's say that we really do have some madman in Moscow who must be stopped. Then we're left with the next question, such as the kind Sean Connery asked in "The Untouchables": "What are you prepared to do?"

How far do you think we should go? I don't know about you, but I don't want to be the one who advocates sending Americans to fight and die on the Russian Front. That's the line that I draw.

 

[Wandering Monk]

No, not an equivalent. My only point here is that people choose to believe whatever they wish, oftentimes without evidence or even much of a rationale to justify it. There's all kinds of wild speculation, rumor, propaganda, Russophobia, and all kinds of other shenanigans and BS that brings back memories of the Cold War.

But okay, let's clear all that aside. Let's say that we really do have some madman in Moscow who must be stopped. Then we're left with the next question, such as the kind Sean Connery asked in "The Untouchables": "What are you prepared to do?"

How far do you think we should go? I don't know about you, but I don't want to be the one who advocates sending Americans to fight and die on the Russian Front. That's the line that I draw.

Even the President has said we will not send troops to Ukraine, but if Putin goes after other NATO members, we are obliged by treaty to defend them.

However, this raises another thorny question: what if Russia launches cyber attacks on NATO members? How severe an attack would it take to be considered an act of war? Would it have to be a lethal attack that kills people?

 

[Revoltingest]

No, not an equivalent. My only point here is that people choose to believe whatever they wish, oftentimes without evidence or even much of a rationale to justify it. There's all kinds of wild speculation, rumor, propaganda, Russophobia, and all kinds of other shenanigans and BS that brings back memories of the Cold War.

There are people who will defend evil acts without
directly stating so. Instead they criticize the criticics,
& state general platitudes about different values &
perspectives. Just stating some facts.

 

[Kooky]

Noted. Does that justify Putin's attack on Ukraine?

No, of course it doesn't. In fact, if you go back to earlier posts of mine on the subject, you will note that I have so far opposed all imperialist military action in the strongest terms.

 

[Stevicus]

Except Putin had gone beyond words and initiated warfare. Are we now to ignore his words about Sweden and Finland?

No, we're not going to ignore his words.

But what are you really getting at here? What are you advocating that we do? As I said to @Revoltingest in my previous post: What are you prepared to do? Are you prepared to send young men and women into battle to fight against Putin over Ukraine? Are you willing to go fight in that battle yourself? Are you willing to accept the potential consequences of going to war with Russia?

And it's not just Russia. What if China joins up with Russia and imposes sanctions on us? What if they cut us off completely? Think of all the things we've grown dependent upon China for, thanks to the same myopic leadership which is in power today.

No, I'm not ignoring anything. I've been paying pretty close attention to world events and politics for the past 50+ years since I started becoming aware. I look at causes and effects. I pay attention to actions and results.

 

[Kooky]

Even the President has said we will not send troops to Ukraine, but if Putin goes after other NATO members, we are obliged by treaty to defend them.

However, this raises another thorny question: what if Russia launches cyber attacks on NATO members? How severe an attack would it take to be considered an act of war? Would it have to be a lethal attack that kills people?

Any exchange of actual military hostilities between Russia and NATO would escalate into a nuclear exchange. Presumably, both the leadership of both Russia and NATO are clued in to this fact, so I hope that all we're going to see are the usual DDOS and misinformation shenanigans we've already become accustomed to.

Of course, once NATO starts supplying Ukrainian military forces openly, things are likely going to escalate in this area.

 

[Stevicus]

There are people who will defend evil acts without
directly stating so. Instead they criticize the criticics,
& state general platitudes about different values &
perspectives. Just stating some facts.

Your perspective on good and evil is duly noted.

 

[Kooky]

There are people who will defend evil acts without
directly stating so. Instead they criticize the criticics,
& state general platitudes about different values &
perspectives. Just stating some facts.

Like "there are good and bad people on both sides".

 

[Revoltingest]

Like "there are good and bad people on both sides".

Your side is the one exception.

 

[Stevicus]

Even the President has said we will not send troops to Ukraine, but if Putin goes after other NATO members, we are obliged by treaty to defend them.

That's what he says now, but the entire situation is in flux and could rapidly change. Circumstances may require it, especially if the war fever continues to be stoked here at home. I will make no wagers on what our government may be planning to do.

However, this raises another thorny question: what if Russia launches cyber attacks on NATO members? How severe an attack would it take to be considered an act of war? Would it have to be a lethal attack that kills people?

Yes, recent cyber attacks would demonstrate that we're vulnerable in that area.

Our most glaring vulnerability at present is the continued political division that persists in this country. The riots of 2020, the Jan. 6 debacle, and other signs of stress and strain on our political system probably made our country look more unstable and divided.

We weakened ourselves. We made ourselves more vulnerable. We took an unfortunate course in the 1980s and 90s, and now we're facing the consequences of those choices.

This doesn't excuse or defend Putin one bit. One doesn't really have anything to do with the other. We may not be able to control what Putin does, but we can control ourselves. As a nation, we can control the choices we make. So, when something horrible like this happens, my first thought is: How could we have prevented this? What could we have done differently?

We can set aside our 2-minute hate for Putin if we must, but once those two minutes are up, then we can look at it on a more rational level. The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.

 

[Kooky]

Your side is the one exception.

I feel honored by your ire.

It means I've done something right.

 

[Stevicus]

Russian Politician Demands Putin 'Immediately' Stop Ukraine Invasion (msn.com)

Russian President Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine is facing increasing opposition back home, with at least one member of the nation's parliament calling for an immediate end to the war.

Thousands of protesters took to the streets this week in Moscow and St. Petersburg as Russian forces launched a full scale invasion of Ukraine on Thursday. Russian security forces detained some 1,800 of the demonstrators, who blasted the invasion of their Eastern European neighbor and protested the war.

Russian lawmaker Mikhail Matveev, a Communist Party deputy of Moscow's lower house—the State Duma—of the Federal Assembly on Friday joined the chorus of war critics urging a swift end to the conflict.

"I think that the war should be stopped immediately. Voting for the recognition of the DNR/LNR, I voted for peace, not for war. For Russia to become a shield, so that Donbas is not bombed, and not for Kyiv being bombed," he tweeted Friday.

The territories have been largely controlled by pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists since 2014, as they've fought against Ukraine's central government in Kyiv. Putin's invasion of Ukraine began after Russian forces moved rapidly into the Donbas region this past week before beginning a full invasion of the Eastern European nation on Thursday.

In a sign that Moscow aims to crackdown further on any criticism, Russia's communications regulator Roskomnadzor ordered the removal of reports that described the invasion of Ukraine as an "assault, invasion, or declaration of war," The Moscow Times reported Saturday. The regulator said media outlets violating the order would be blocked unless they removed the "unreliable information."

As the fighting continues, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has reiterated his desire for a ceasefire and peace talks with Russia. "Ukraine was and remains ready to talk about a ceasefire and peace," his spokesperson Sergii Nykyforov said in a Saturday Facebook post.

With a video uploaded to Facebook on Saturday, Zelenskyy shared a message of resolve in the face of Russian aggression.

"We have stood up and successfully fought the enemy's attacks. The fights are ongoing in many cities and areas of our state. But we know that we are protecting the country, the land, the future of our children," he wrote. "Kyiv and key cities around the capital are controlled by our army."

The U.S. and Western European nations implemented significant sanctions targeting Russia as well as Putin and other top leaders in Moscow directly. They have also promised further military and humanitarian aide in support of Ukraine.

"I spoke with the G7 leaders today, and we are in full agreement: We will limit Russia's ability to be part of the global economy. We will stunt their ability to finance and grow Russia's military. We will impair their ability to compete in a high-tech, 21st century economy," President Joe Biden vowed in a Thursday Twitter post.

 

[Stevicus]

Live updates: Germany to send anti-tank weapons to Ukraine | AP News

Over 120,000 refugees have fled Ukraine into neighboring countries.

WASHINGTON, D.C. — A senior U.S. defense official says the United States estimates that more than 50% of Russian combat power arrayed along Ukraine’s borders has entered Ukraine. That is up from a U.S. estimate Friday that one-third of the Russian force had been committed to the fight.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss internal U.S. assessments, would not say how many Russian troops that amounts to inside Ukraine, but the U.S. had estimated the total Russian force arrayed near Ukraine at more than 150,000.

The official said advancing Russian forces were roughly 30 kilometers outside Kyiv as of Saturday, and that an unspecified number of Russian military “reconnaissance elements” had entered the capital.

Meanwhile, Britain’s Defense Ministry said Saturday that “the speed of the Russian advance has temporarily slowed likely as a result of acute logistical difficulties and strong Ukrainian resistance.”

“Russian forces are bypassing major Ukrainian population centres while leaving forces to encircle and isolate them,” the ministry said.

There were protests against Putin and the invasion in Serbia, but that country has not joined in with the sanctions against Russia.

KYIV, Ukraine — The mayor of a city south of the Ukrainian capital says that the country’s military has fended off a Russian attempt to take control of a military air base.

Natalia Balansynovych, the mayor of Vasylkiv, about 25 miles (40 kilometers) south of Kyiv, said Saturday that Russian airborne forces landed near the city overnight and tried to seize the base. She said fierce fighting also raged on Vasylkiv’s central street.

She said that Ukrainian forces repelled the Russian attacks, and that the situation is now calm. Balansynovych said there were heavy casualties, but didn’t give any numbers.

___

KYIV, Ukraine — An adviser to Ukraine’s president says that fighting is raging in the capital and in the country’s south, and that the Ukrainian military is successfully fending off Russian assaults.

President Volodymyr Zelenskyy’s adviser Mykhailo Podolyak said Saturday that small groups of Russian forces tried to infiltrate Kyiv and engaged in fighting with Ukrainian troops. He said that Russia wants to seize control of the Ukrainian capital and destroy the country’s leadership, but said the Russian military has failed to make any gains and that the Ukrainian forces control the situation in Kyiv.

He said Russian forces were also focusing on the country’s south, where intense fighting is underway in Kherson just north of Crimea, and in the Black Sea ports of Mykolaiv, Odesa and around Mariupol.

He said that Russia considers it a priority to seize the south, but it has failed to make any significant gains.

“Ukraine hasn’t simply withstood it. Ukraine is winning,” Podolyak said at a briefing.

They're saying there's strong resistance and they're fighting and fending off the Russian advances. Zelensky's advisor Podolyak said "Ukraine is winning."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's partly why I asked @Shadow Wolf some questions recently about the basic nature of sanity. It's that I think that there is a psychological problem, and it isn't just a rare one, unfortunately, and it has to I think, with the parameters of 'general' functionality has not being fully objective. And the think the lone japanese solider might be a clue: although the man was alone, he got his sense of sanity from group participation or narrative, rather than internal story, or narrative

The last part is more of a difference between Eastern amd Western psychologies of identity. We identify individually, they identify collectively.
As for the lone samurai, that's largely a myth with tons of parallels with the American Cowboy. And real cowboys were known for being a very rowdy bunch amd going crazy when they eventually made it back to a town.
Deep or prolonged isolation is just not good for social animals. This doesn't just apply to humans. We can't even function within normal human society if we aren't raised in it. We need each other, just like bonobos who are punished by being sent into isolation.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I don't know, what conceivable threat could a communist Cuba have been to a 1960s US?

you clearly do not remember that Russia had moved nuclear capable missiles to Cuba. America had no fear of Cuba but very much so of Russian missiles in reach of American soil.