1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Public Education And Independent Self-Taught Research

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Native, Nov 17, 2022.

  1. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    This OP is all about how new ideas always derives from individuals who are able to sense and think independently outside the squared boxes and come up with new ideas and logical solutions.

    Here Michael Faraday as an excellent example - Michael Faraday - Wikipedia


    Excerpt:
    Michael Faraday
    : 22 September 1791 – 25 August 1867) was an English scientist who contributed to the study of electromagnetism and electrochemistry. His main discoveries include the principles underlying electromagnetic induction, diamagnetism, and electrolysis.

    Although Faraday received little formal education, he was one of the most influential scientists in history. It was by his research on the magnetic field around a conductor carrying a direct current that Faraday established the basis for the concept of the electromagnetic field in physics. Faraday also established that magnetism could affect rays of light and that there was an underlying relationship between the two phenomena.

    He similarly discovered the principles of electromagnetic induction, diamagnetism, and the laws of electrolysis. His inventions of electromagnetic rotary devices formed the foundation of electric motor technology, and it was largely due oi his efforts that electricity became practical for use in technology.

    Faraday was an excellent experimentalist who conveyed his ideas in clear and simple language; his mathematical abilities, however, did not extend as far as trigonometry and were limited to the simplest algebra.

    James Clerk Maxwell took the work of Faraday and others and summarized it in a set of equations which is accepted as the basis of all modern theories of electromagnetic phenomena. On Faraday's uses of lines of force, Maxwell wrote that they show Faraday "to have been in reality, a mathematician of a very high order – one from whom the mathematicians of the future may derive valuable and fertile methods.
    --------------------

    A 15:41 minute video about Michael Faraday from the “See The Pattern”-channel:




    In this episode, we will explore the remarkable contributions made by Michael Faraday.

    My comments:
    Apparently, Michael Faraday were a genuine intuitive natural philosopher despite his lack of former education - maybe even exactly because of this.

    - I find it very remarkable that the about 350 year old basic Newtonian ideas of “gravity” still governs most of the standing cosmology. Since Newton, there have been lots of scientific electromagnetic discoveries, but it seems that “the old Newton ghost” STILL haunts the standing cosmological science.

    Well, I guess it´s just the usual inertia of humans not making changing paradigm shift when once have been hypnotized and indoctrinated long enough to believe in something – in the Newtonian case, even something which nobody can explain scientifically by what dynamically means an assumed force should work.

    This is a de facto practicing occultism and such often lead to superstitious conclusions and wrong predictions, as with Newtons mental construct of his “Universal law of celestial motion around a gravity center”, which was directly contradicted by the discovery of the galactic rotation curve.

    This contradiction led to an extension of the old dogmatics and more occult superstitious inventions of “heavy black holes” and “dark matter”, simply because conventional scientists didn´t include the natural electromagnetic logics in fundamental elements and their electromagnetic role in formation and cosmic motions, hence these scientists miss a ¾ part of the fundamental cosmological explanations and logical arguments - and the strongest ones as well.
     
  2. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane My own religion

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    16,012
    Ratings:
    +4,684
    Religion:
    The Wrong One
    Well, since we are in debate and for science and religion, I will go meta on it. I don't care about what objective really is, I care about being a human in the everyday world and you can do science all you like as long as you understand the limitation of claiming what the universe is.
    Why, because the universe is in me, I am a part of it and then there is all the rest including you. So if you want the correct theory you have to include humans. Now if you can do that, good. If you in effect cheat and declare the universe as only not humans, then that is an old one, but the falsification is that we as other humans can do that differently than you.
    And that is general philosophy and not just natural philosophy.

    So go for it and start by explaining what you understand the universe to be.
     
  3. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    Hi Mikkel,
    You succeeded to completely miss the very OP in this thread with the human, Michael Faraday, as an example. Try again.
     
  4. Left Coast

    Left Coast The Fabulous
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2019
    Messages:
    8,998
    Ratings:
    +14,955
    Religion:
    It's Complicated
    Just because a guy from 150+ years ago, a time when most people were minimally educated, made some important discoveries, does not create an excuse for you to act like you know better than literally every professional physicist on the planet today despite a lack of higher education in the field.

    Have you done any actual, formal, controlled experimentation to test your ideas? Submitted any for peer review? Had any conversation in real life with any professional scientist or person with relevant scientific expertise about your ideas? How did any of that go?
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    25,302
    Ratings:
    +32,056
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Faraday was taken seriously because he was a very careful and innovative experimenter. He discovered very important connections between the electric and magnetic forces and was able to demonstrate those connections to the educated community at the time.

    Maxwell took Faraday's work (as well as the work of many others) and combined it into a rigorous mathematical model.

    In contrast, your claim that gravity isn't required to explain observed behavior is unfounded. The observed galactic rotation curves are NOT a violation of Newton's law of gravity. They merely say that some mass is not taken into account when looking at light emitted from stars. Nothing surprising here.

    And, no attempt to formulate a rigorous mathematical model without gravity has been able to explain the observed motion of planets, or even the observed motions of stars in galaxies. So, you seem to want to replace a theory that is working, but has some unknowns, with one that doesn't work at all.

    We can *measure* the gravitational force between masses in the lab. In fact, this has been done for centuries now (long before Faraday). The same forces we can measure in the lab can, when scaled up, explain the motion of the planets and moons in our solar system. No theory based solely on E&M can do so.

    And that is why the models you suggest (without giving details) are not considered to be even worth closer scrutiny.
     
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Informative Informative x 2
  6. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,216
    Ratings:
    +6,485
    Religion:
    Pi π
    I do admire Michael Faraday for his discovery and experiments, and for his explanations on electromagnetism, but he couldn’t explain it all, so it was James Clerk Maxwell who took the next step forward.

    Second, Faraday didn’t understand anything that wouldn’t be known till the following 2 centuries, which would include Quantum Mechanics and Quantum Field Theory (QFT).

    Don’t get me wrong, Faraday did provide very important information about electromagnetism, but it is just one piece in a much larger puzzle, Maxwell provide another piece in the puzzle. So did Albert Einstein in 1905, when he wrote paper on Photoelectric Effect, the dual nature of light as both wave (EM fields) and particle (eg photon). What Einstein did was open the floodgates for Quantum Mechanics in the early half of the 20th century. And each ones of them provide pieces to the puzzle.

    In the 70 years, more pieces were uncovered, that helped with physicists understanding other areas of physics, like the standard model of particles physics and its relations to fundamental forces, the Gauge Theory, and the earlier history of the universe (formation of particles and matters), etc.

    The problem with the classical theory of electromagnetism by Faraday & Maxwell, are the same with Newton’s theory on motion and gravity, the classical EM theory is only approximate solutions.

    Just as Einstein provide more precise solutions to motion (Special Relativity) and gravity (General Relativity), Faraday-Maxwell field theory is being replaced by Quantum Electrodynamics in QFT.

    It is still in theoretical stage, but when they do find the solution that connect GR and QFT, Quantum Gravity will replace Einstein’s General Relativity.

    Lastly, Faraday may have provided the (very important) break through on EM fields, he wasn’t a cosmologist, he wasn’t an astronomer, nor astrophysicist, and with his limitations on knowledge of atoms and smaller particles, Faraday wasn’t also a quantum mechanics physicist.

    Faraday have made no attempt to explain or to test anything about the cosmology of the universe.

    My points in all of the above, that you can only give credits to what Faraday have actually achieved and what he knew at that time, and not for something he knew absolutely nothing about.

    Faraday wasn’t an astronomer, nor a cosmology, and he offered no explanation about the universe.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,216
    Ratings:
    +6,485
    Religion:
    Pi π
    Even Galileo tested the masses of falling objects (the Tower of Pisa experiment) before Newton arrived in the scene.

    Like Newton with gravity, Faraday didn’t have full answer with electromagnetic fields. Both Newton and Faraday just provide the earliest foundations for their respective fields.

    Beside that, as I said in my last post, Faraday had never attempt to explain anything in regards to astronomy and cosmology. And Faraday had never attempted to debunk Newton on the matters of gravity or about the Solar System.

    @Native seemed to be implying Faraday knew everything there was there to know about electromagnetic field theory...but clearly he didn’t. And Faraday certainly made no attempts in explaining the motions of planets, so why is it that Native trying to give credits to Faraday that Faraday has never explored?
     
  8. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    25,302
    Ratings:
    +32,056
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    In fact, it was Maxwell that made the crucial connection between electromagnetism and light. His mathematics wasn't consistent unless he added another term to one of his equations. But that extra term predicted the existence of electromagnetic waves. When he figured out the predicted speed of those waves, he discovered it was the (already known) speed of light.

    This connection was later verified by Herz when he made radio waves.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    25,302
    Ratings:
    +32,056
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Actually, that is probably an apocryphal story. Galileo did do a number of experiments with gravity, but he usually did them on inclined planes, not freely falling objects.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,216
    Ratings:
    +6,485
    Religion:
    Pi π
    I thought that story may not be true.
     
  11. Ella S.

    Ella S. Stoic Utilitarian

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2021
    Messages:
    1,086
    Ratings:
    +1,216
    Religion:
    Rationalism
    If you are self-taught, you are still able to submit papers to academic journals. I'm currently doing some research in computational logic on the side to clean up and submit, myself, despite abandoning my degree program to pursue a career in information security.

    Degree programs are a useful way to learn about the field you are contributing to and they help you raise funding for your experiments through, for instance, professorships. They are neither necessary nor sufficient for this.

    One of my friends who is an esteemed professor told me that they teach students the year before they enter their doctorate programs and many of their students do not know what a control group is. These are people that are unlikely to make significant contributions to their fields.

    If you have a passion for self-education, then there are a variety of accredited universities that have their course materials for free online. I have made heavy use of the materials from Stanford, MIT, and Coursera to continue my education in logic passed the formal education I have already received. Some of these materials are not even covered in their degree programs, due to being a part of more niche studies.

    I think scholarship as a whole would benefit from more people committed to understanding the world around us and willing to go through the hardship of self-education to contribute to these fields. Just make sure you are educating yourself when you self-study because there are a lot of psuedoscientific works and hoaxes out there that might lead you astray if you aren't careful.

    Universities are generally curated enough to avoid most of that, which is one of many reasons they're often preferable to self-study, but even there sometimes you will have the occasional misinformed anecdotes from the professor. I had a history professor who went on a rant about UFO's during one of our classes, for instance.

    I would point out that Faraday did go through the proper channels to become recognized by academia.
     
  12. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2006
    Messages:
    19,216
    Ratings:
    +6,485
    Religion:
    Pi π
    Yes, I agree with Maxwell's contributions to EM waves. A fact, that Maxwell don't even rate a mention by @Native.

    And neither Maxwell, nor Faraday, say anything about the Solar System, the Milky Way or the Universe, in which @Native has been claiming.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    I´m just pointing out that independed research and alternate thinking is was lead to new discoveries and solutions to standing cosmological problems.
     
  14. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    You´re making a circular and unfounded argument here, assuming a de facto unfound "dark matter" as the cause for the also de facto contradicted Newtonian gravitational "universal law of celestial motion around a central gravity force".
    If such galactic motions cannot be explained by gravitational laws, other fundamental forces are logically at play.
     
  15. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    Oviously you missed to read this citation:
    This just concludes that independent researchers philosophically can come up with genuine logical scientific ideas and results without having significant matemathical skills.
     
  16. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    gnostic said:
    Even Galileo tested the masses of falling objects (the Tower of Pisa experiment) before Newton arrived in the scene.
    So why did you at all mentioned it in the first hand?
     
    #16 Native, Nov 18, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2022
  17. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    Are there peer reviewers in that specific scientific field?
    I of course don´t discard public education as such. I´m just underpinning that new discoveries and explanations by independent researchers are long time underway before it shows up in books and taught in Universities.
    Thanks for your concerned advise. This is exactly why I´m very critical when reading all kinds of unnatural theories and inconsistencies in the standing cosmology.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    42,674
    Ratings:
    +17,423
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Occasionally, rarely. It's also what leads to really, really stupid ideas.
     
  19. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    BTW: I´m sorry for my delayed replies. I don´t wages over the RF site 24/7, and as I don´t get notifications from RF, I can´t reply immediately.
     
  20. Native

    Native Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2011
    Messages:
    4,430
    Ratings:
    +602
    Religion:
    Natural Perceptions
    Native said:
    I´m just pointing out that independed research and alternate thinking is was lead to new discoveries and solutions to standing cosmological problems.
    Regarding your second sentence: Yes, especially when cosmological ideas are based on unexplained forces and its connected assumptions.
     
    #20 Native, Nov 18, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2022
Loading...