Psychopathy, sociopathy, and moral culpability

[GardenLady]

This thread arises out of conversation I had IRL, and I’m interested in opinions.

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

Whatever the case or terminology, there are those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. And those who study such things state that some are born this way—miswired from birth.

So, where does the moral culpability lie? If psychopathy results from organic brain defects, is the psychopath responsible? On the other hand, many have normal to high intelligence and are certainly aware of social/ religious/ moral standards, even if they do not internalize them.

I’m interested in hearing thoughts on this topic.

 

[Rival]

As far as I care they are culpable. My mother is an ASPD with no empathy &c. and I grew up with her. What I go by is that they know better; even if they don't feel it or care about it, they know better. If you know what you are doing is wrong and do it anyway, you're culpable - empathy, conscience or not.

 

[Nakosis]

This thread arises out of conversation I had IRL, and I’m interested in opinions.

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

Whatever the case or terminology, there are those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. And those who study such things state that some are born this way—miswired from birth.

So, where does the moral culpability lie? If psychopathy results from organic brain defects, is the psychopath responsible? On the other hand, many have normal to high intelligence and are certainly aware of social/ religious/ moral standards, even if they do not internalize them.

I’m interested in hearing thoughts on this topic.

Interestingly I had recently looked into this.
IMO the psychopath is not capable of being responsible for their actions. I think this is reflected in our legal system.
The sociopath OTOH who doesn't feel empathy/compassion still has knowledge of our laws and what behavior is illegal. So they can be held accountable for criminal behavior.

 

[PureX]

This thread arises out of conversation I had IRL, and I’m interested in opinions.

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

Whatever the case or terminology, there are those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. And those who study such things state that some are born this way—miswired from birth.

So, where does the moral culpability lie? If psychopathy results from organic brain defects, is the psychopath responsible? On the other hand, many have normal to high intelligence and are certainly aware of social/ religious/ moral standards, even if they do not internalize them.

I’m interested in hearing thoughts on this topic.

It's a complex phenomenon.

I was born with a genetic predisposition to become alcoholic. The way this predisposition manifested was in an exaggerated and uncomfortable internal 'self-awareness' that made everyday life very anxious. And in a brain structure that responds to alcohol with a very strong, euphoric reaction. So that this combination made my first experience with drinking alcohol almost a magical revelation. It erased that constant feeling of self-conscious anxiety for the first time in my life, and replaced it with an intense and euphoric feeling of joy and freedom. And as might be expected, I absolutely fell in live with it, immediately. And I wanted more of it, immediately. In this way I was genetically (bio-structurally) predisposed to become addicted to alcohol (or rather, to the drunken state that alcohol produces).

However, I was eventually able to overcome that addiction, with external help. And I have not had a drink in many years. I point this out to try and explain the relationship between "nature" and "nurture". Nature designed me to be an alcoholic. And so I became one. But I also always had the choice not to "obey" nature's predisposition. Unfortunately, I was not willing (and maybe not even able at that young age) to disobey that natural drive until it had nearly destroyed me. There was a choice, and yet there was no choice. None that I could honestly recognize as such at the time. I realize this sound paradoxical, and it is. But it is also nevertheless the case.

And I think this paradoxical relationship between our natural drives and instincts, and our internal and social control of those drives and instincts are very complicated, and multifaceted. And we see this sort of difficult and paradoxical phenomenology with all sorts of addictions, and compulsions, and individually and socially destructive human behaviors. It's why societies, historically, have so much difficulty responding to them with any real positive effect.

Having experienced this weird paradox of both having a choice, and not having one, simultaneously, I am now reluctant to pass judgment on those who find themselves trapped in a similar internal dynamic. Certainly. we have to protect ourselves against these destructive behaviors, addictions, compulsions, and so on. But I think we need to be very careful in laying blame, or discussing presumed cures or options. Because it's a very complex and difficult phenomena to grasp. And even more-so, to grasp clearly.

 

[viole]

This thread arises out of conversation I had IRL, and I’m interested in opinions.

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

Whatever the case or terminology, there are those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. And those who study such things state that some are born this way—miswired from birth.

So, where does the moral culpability lie? If psychopathy results from organic brain defects, is the psychopath responsible? On the other hand, many have normal to high intelligence and are certainly aware of social/ religious/ moral standards, even if they do not internalize them.

I’m interested in hearing thoughts on this topic.

I have a neuro-divergence that makes me hate things like casual smalltalk. Therefore, I do not hold in high esteem the company with my fellow apes, or any social event, in general, since the vast majority of them can only say uninteresting and boring stuff. Or things about their lives and problems, for which I have no interest whatsoever.

Maybe that would probably make me a sociopath, but not necessarily a psychopath. I cannot, for instance, imagine I will ever manipulate people to achieve my goals.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

There is no clinical definition or diagnosis of these.
To our best knowledge it is a combination of genetic factors and upbringing that breeds what is colloquially known as a psychopath/sociopath.
And, yes, they are morally accountable. Even if they don't feel empathy they understand they broke the law.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Psychopaths know what is right or wrong, or what society considers to be right or wrong. They just disregard it. They tend to think they are above society's morals and laws. This is apparent with people like Ted Bundy, Eric Harris and Jimmy Savile, who were all quite intelligent people and not delusional but lacking any sort of humanity. Yes, they are culpable.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Psychopaths know what is right or wrong, or what society considers to be right or wrong. They just disregard it. They tend to think they are above society's morals and laws. This is apparent with people like Ted Bundy, Eric Harris and Jimmy Savile, who were all quite intelligent people and not delusional but lacking any sort of humanity. Yes, they are culpable.

I would say they tend to be more Machavelian about it.
I highly recommend everyone watch at least a few documentaries and interviews with such people. It is quite a fascinating. Bundy and Manson especially with the sort of spellbinding web they could cast on people, seem like a proper, good saint to the world but masking diabolical cruelty deeply beneath.

 

[GardenLady]

Interestingly I had recently looked into this.
IMO the psychopath is not capable of being responsible for their actions. I think this is reflected in our legal system.

.
Are you perhaps mixing up psychopathy and psychosis? The latter is a disconnect from reality that can render someone unable to understand the nature and effect of their behavior.

 

[Nakosis]

.
Are you perhaps mixing up psychopathy and psychosis? The latter is a disconnect from reality that can render someone unable to understand the nature and effect of their behavior.

I was reading an article about a possible genetic connection to psychopathy.
It wasn't this but similar. What Causes Psychopathy | Psychopathy Is

It was contrasting sociopathy to psychopathy. I understand genetics doesn't cause our destiny but it can direct it quite a bit.

 

[VoidCat]

I think that just cuz someone has ASPD doesn't make them a bad person and there are some folks with the disorder that are good people. Same with those who are narcissists or have BPD. They do all need help but that doesn't make them bad people. Now this is based on me talking to a person who has been diagnosed with ASPD and the struggles it has caused their life. They have been getting help for it have a child and that child is very well cared for. They even took classes to help them learn how to help care for the child and went to therapy when they found out they were pregnant constantly trying to learn how to help with understanding the child's emotions once they were born. I think a lot of what has been shown online and in media is a small portion of these types of folks and that there is just a lot of stigma around personality disorders in general.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

This thread arises out of conversation I had IRL, and I’m interested in opinions.

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

Whatever the case or terminology, there are those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. And those who study such things state that some are born this way—miswired from birth.

So, where does the moral culpability lie? If psychopathy results from organic brain defects, is the psychopath responsible? On the other hand, many have normal to high intelligence and are certainly aware of social/ religious/ moral standards, even if they do not internalize them.

I’m interested in hearing thoughts on this topic.

I really don’t think anyone is born evil.

 

[Brickjectivity]

This thread arises out of conversation I had IRL, and I’m interested in opinions.

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

Whatever the case or terminology, there are those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. And those who study such things state that some are born this way—miswired from birth.

So, where does the moral culpability lie? If psychopathy results from organic brain defects, is the psychopath responsible? On the other hand, many have normal to high intelligence and are certainly aware of social/ religious/ moral standards, even if they do not internalize them.

I’m interested in hearing thoughts on this topic.

I empathize with the psychopaths, particularly if I know them personally. I don't want them to suffer, and the thought of it impacts me. I also, however, don't want other people to suffer. Therefore I hold them criminally liable when it is necessary. I can't fix them. All I can do is warn them.

Beyond that what about God? I don't view God as directly choosing to create, so I don't view God as responsible for psychopaths' existence. That may not be what other people think though or what an individual psychopathic person thinks. Why would God?

Well...what I think is that they play a role in the survival of the species. There is a reason that some of us people live without regrets.

 

[Aštra’el]

I think once you’ve developed significant control over your motions, and live realizing the extreme subjectivity of “right” and “wrong” (in regards to morals), it can be easy for others to perceive you as a “sociopath”. The law remains, however. The law is simple to understand and is far, far more objective. It makes perfect sense to me that those some people call “sociopaths” be held just as accountable for breaking laws as anybody else.

 

[1213]

...Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. ... ...those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. ...

How it is possible for anyone else than a psychopath or sociopath to call another person a psychopath or sociopath? Is the “it takes one to know one” not true?

 

[Martin]

This thread arises out of conversation I had IRL, and I’m interested in opinions.

Some say psychopathy and sociopath are the same thing. Some say it’s a matter of degree. Some say psychopaths are born and sociopaths are made.

Whatever the case or terminology, there are those among us who lack empathy, conscience, and remorse. And those who study such things state that some are born this way—miswired from birth.

So, where does the moral culpability lie? If psychopathy results from organic brain defects, is the psychopath responsible? On the other hand, many have normal to high intelligence and are certainly aware of social/ religious/ moral standards, even if they do not internalize them.

I’m interested in hearing thoughts on this topic.

If somebody is intelligent enough to understand that what they're doing is wrong, unlawful or harmful, then I believe they are culpable. Whether or not they care is another question, IMO.
A bit like an alcoholic who drinks and drives.

 

[GardenLady]

How it is possible for anyone else than a psychopath or sociopath to call another person a psychopath or sociopath? Is the “it takes one to know one” not true?

There are assessment tools that have been tested and verified. They have largely been done on select populations (such as Hare's work with prisoners) and not a general population. But key characteristics of antisocial personality disorder are well documented. They aren't all Ted Bundy. In fact, there is an interesting book about sociopathy among corporate leaders called "Snakes in Suits."

 

[1213]

There are assessment tools that have been tested and verified. They have largely been done on select populations (such as Hare's work with prisoners) and not a general population. But key characteristics of antisocial personality disorder are well documented. They aren't all Ted Bundy. In fact, there is an interesting book about sociopathy among corporate leaders called "Snakes in Suits."

Ok, to me it sounds that person lacks empathy, conscience, and remorse, if he calls another person a psychopathy/sociopath. But, I can be wrong.