Protestants don't know their Bible!

[Five Solas]

Obviously, "community" is fine, but still was a community with appointed leaders going back to Jesus and the Twelve. IOW, it was very much "organized".

Hello,
Yes, it was organised. God likes order and that can be seen in creation.
The New Testament mentions definite church leadership called elders, overseers, pastors’ deacons as well as women that served prominently. Looks like every congregation was led by a group of elders, not a single pastor/minister. There is no indication, really, of the hierarchy, we see in some churches today which in my view is entirely unbiblical. All Christians are equal before God.

The initial apostles were the appointed leaders/preachers/messengers of the Gospel – true Gospel which becomes clear from, for example, the Jerusalem conference of Acts 15. That meeting was called to decide whether circumcision for gentile converts was requisite for community/church membership. So, the apostles had to decide on a dogmatic principle implying they also ‘managed’ the content of preaching.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

rosary dates back to year 1221 as is part of Christian tradition.

Traditions are not inventions, traditions exist since early Christians.
The bible nowhere says bible only, tradition in all it's flavors is work of the holly spirit, not "invention".

Mark 7:8 Jesus warns people not to follow traditions of men. Something that started in 1221 is not a commandment of God but is a tradition of men. Bible says to avoid it but of course to you that means not to avoid it.

 

[paradox]

Mark 7:8 Jesus warns people not to follow traditions of men

Mark 7:8 talks about tradition of Pharisees

Something that started in 1221 is not a commandment of God but is a tradition of men

Christian tradition is guided by holly spirit not by the will of men as it was the case with Pharisees

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Mark 7:8 talks about tradition of Pharisees


Christian tradition is guided by holly spirit not by the will of men as it was the case with Pharisees

Very interesting that everything the Bible says do NOT do, you go out of you way to find an excuse to do it. Any church that says it's rules are more important than God's rules is not a church that God approves of.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Very interesting that everything the Bible says do NOT do, you go out of you way to find an excuse to do it. Any church that says it's rules are more important than God's rules is not a church that God approves of.

I agree. The traditions of men keep Christianity from Eph 4.11-14 and on.
Christian. How did you get to the point that you believe men over the words you say are infallible

 

[paradox]

Any church that says it's rules are more important than God's rules is not a church that God approves of.

holly spirit is God and was sent to guide the church, so how can you say God does not approve it?

 

[TreeOfLife]

holly spirit is God and was sent to guide the church, so how can you say God does not approve it?

The HS guides us in truth. He does not create it.

 

[metis]

Looks like every congregation was led by a group of elders, not a single pastor/minister.

Depends. There were episcopi and hiereus, with the former now called bishops and the latter now called elders, pastors, or priests. Generally speaking, there was sometimes more of the latter in a single local congregation.

There is no indication, really, of the hierarchy, we see in some churches today which in my view is entirely unbiblical.

That's simply not at all true as there was a hierarchy in the early Church as well.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

holly spirit is God and was sent to guide the church, so how can you say God does not approve it?

There are many spirits guiding men and they are not all holy. Satan guides many and leads them away from the word of God. If a man tells me to do something but the Bible says I should not do it, then that man is not being lead by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

 

[paradox]

There are many spirits guiding men and they are not all holy. Satan guides many and leads them away from the word of God. If a man tells me to do something but the Bible says I should not do it, then that man is not being lead by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

You assign the work of holly spirit to Satan.
How would biblically prove that the church is guided by Satan or that it could be guided by Satan?

 

[Five Solas]

Depends. There were episcopi and hiereus, with the former now called bishops and the latter now called elders, pastors, or priests. Generally speaking, there was sometimes more of the latter in a single local congregation.

That's simply not at all true as there was a hierarchy in the early Church as well.

Biblical references, please.

 

[Five Solas]

There seems to be confusion about Sola Scripture. May I try to give the Reformed view;


Sola Scriptura is the belief that the Scriptures are the highest and ultimate authority in the life of the Christian. Or, the only infallible rule of faith and doctrine is God's infallible Word.

It is NOT the belief that the Scriptures are the only authority – it is the ONLY infallible authority.

The church has authority.

The chosen elders have authority.

Biblical preaching has authority.

The Church fathers have authority.

Church councils, like Nicea, have authority.

Our creeds have authority.


What does it oppose?

Sola Scriptura opposed the RCC who claims that the Scriptures, tradition, the Magisterium and the Pope are all equally infallible.

So, the Pope, for example, has the same authority as Scripture. Sola Scriptura disagrees. In the Reformed tradition, we totally accept that fallen/sinful humans have the tendency to replace God’s authority with some other authority.

Human traditions: the number one motivation for Sola Scriptura was the authority the RCC gave to their human traditions. Sola Scriptura rejects that they are equally authoritative as Scripture.

Sola Scriptura opposes individualism – people who claim, “My Own Private Bible Interpretation is My Guide” Or people who claim that they have a personal relationship with Jesus without the local church. Sadly, modern some evangelical churches struggle with individualistic tendencies.

The Reformers were very clear that they did not reject all that came before them like, for example, the church fathers, councils etc. They have always appealed to the history of doctrine and that they were not coming up with something new, but rather that the RCC had departed from the original apostolic path. They were uncovering what had been lost in time.

Sola Scriptura also opposes anyone who claims that personal religious experiences as authoritative. Human feelings are notoriously unreliable. The church remains the main interpreter of Scripture and it should keep a watchful eye on what is being preached.

So, Sola Scriptura is NOT Scripture in isolation apart from the rest of God’s work in the church. It means Scripture alone is the sole infallible rule of faith for the church.

 

[metis]

Biblical references, please.

Acts and most of the epistles.

Also, check these verses on "appoint" as found in the Gospel: Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)

 

[Five Solas]

Acts and most of the epistles.

Also, check these verses on "appoint" as found in the Gospel: Bible, Revised Standard Version (umich.edu)

Hi,

You'll have to be more specific - I do understand your conclusions. I do not agree that choosing a leader is the first step in creating a hierarchy.

We believe Christ is the head of the church - no earthling is.

Scripture is the only infallible authority in matters of faith and salvation.

All leadership roles are a ‘function’ rather than a position. (Rom. 12:8). Paul used the Greek participle form “the one leading” to highlight the fact that leadership is a functioning ministry of giftedness rather than a static “office” of positional power.

 

[metis]

You'll have to be more specific - I do understand your conclusions. I do not agree that choosing a leader is the first step in creating a hierarchy.

hi·er·ar·chy
[ˈhī(ə)ˌrärkē]
NOUN

1. a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority

Clearly we see this in the Gospel.

We believe Christ is the head of the church - no earthling is.

Ditto.

Scripture is the only infallible authority in matters of faith and salvation.

Not in my "book", and just a reminder that the Church predated the Christian scriptures.

I gotta go until Monday, so take care. I can clarify the above then if you want.

 

[Luchito Prays]

Jesus promised he built his Church on Peter,

Reading carefully, he said he built his church on what Peter said, not so in what Peter is. Peter said that Yeshu (Jesus) was the anointed one, that also means, the chosen one, the son of the God, the sent one...

Besides, Peter ended his life in Babylon, no records at all he put his feet on Rome.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

You assign the work of holly spirit to Satan.
How would biblically prove that the church is guided by Satan or that it could be guided by Satan?

I am simply saying that I believe the Bible is the word of God. If a man says to follow some tradition that the Bible says we should not follow, then that man is not following the Bible. If you decide to follow what that man says, that is up to you. I prefer to follow what the Bible says.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not in my "book", and just a reminder that the Church predated the Christian scriptures.

Literalist very rarely understand this point.

 

[Five Solas]

hi·er·ar·chy
[ˈhī(ə)ˌrärkē]
NOUN

1. a system or organization in which people or groups are ranked one above the other according to status or authority

Clearly we see this in the Gospel.

Ditto.

Not in my "book", and just a reminder that the Church predated the Christian scriptures.

I gotta go until Monday, so take care. I can clarify the above then if you want.

Jesus pointed out to his disciples that human forms of government are always oppressive: “the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones are tyrants over them” (Mt 20:26). He then categorically rejects an autocratic method of leadership and He instructs the disciples not to be like the worldly leaders.

Jesus promoted servant leadership. “Whoever wishes to be great among you must be your servant” (Mt 20:26) - of servants, by servants, for servants.

“Just as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mt 20:28).

 

[RabbiO]

You assign the work of holly spirit to Satan.

What or who is this “holly spirit” you have referred to more than once in your posts? Is it similar to the “holy spirit” mentioned by other posters on the forum?