Proselytizing signs

[Katzpur]

We actually already had this conversation a while back with other members of the Church.

Yeah, it ran in my mind that we had.

I was on one side, claiming that it had been a commandment and that no racism took place, and everyone else was against me. (Figures! ^^)

Even the Mormons?

Anyways, you can go there to read my main points for why I believe the way I do.

And I'm sure you can find mine there, too? Do you really want to go into this again? If you do, this particular thread is probably not the best place for us to do so. Personally, I don't really find any enjoyment in debating with (i.e. against) my fellow Church members, but if you want to, I will. But, I don't want to hijack this particular thread, which is what would happen if we were to go at it here. So let me know what your decision is.

 

[Katzpur]

Exactly, it's a sporting event. Lots of people bring signs, with lots of different messages.

Such as? What other signs promoted one religion over another one?

Had the Christians had a sign with an anti-christian message, then yes that's odd, but the message was a common one amongst Christianity.

Sorry, but I think there's a time and a place for proselytizing, and the Olympics isn't it.

 

[Katzpur]

I cannot "cite" anything as my experience was purely anecdotal. Not sure if there is an extremist view but I was told long ago that I would "burn in hell" and that "my kind" was cursed due to the curse of Ham.

Apparently you did run into an extremist element, because that perspective has never been promoted by the LDS Church leadership.

 

[Enoch07]

Such as? What other signs promoted one religion over another one?

Well his sign was not promoting one religion over another. It was simply as stated in the OP.

But its the same as atheist billboards scattered throughout the U.S. you can Google them if you wish.

Sorry, but I think there's a time and a place for proselytizing, and the Olympics isn't it.

I don't agree with the when and where either. But he is still free to do so via free speech. He was not violent or causing a disturbance, so he was well within his right of free speech.

 

[Katzpur]

Well his sign was not promoting one religion over another. It was simply as stated in the OP.

If saying "Jesus = Heaven" is not promoting Christianity, I don't know what it was doing.

But its the same as atheist billboards scattered throughout the U.S. you can Google them if you wish.

I don't need to Google them. I'm as aware of them as you are, and I don't like them either.

I don't agree with the when and where either. But he is still free to do so via free speech. He was not violent or causing a disturbance, so he was well within his right of free speech.

I can go along with that. He wasn't violent and was not breaking the law. I just cannot even fathom the idea that he would actually think that seeing a sign of that nature would make anybody who was not a Christian think, "Really? Wow! I'm going to go get baptized right after this event! I sure don't want to go to Hell!"

 

[Enoch07]

If saying "Jesus = Heaven" is not promoting Christianity, I don't know what it was doing.

It is but that does not mean it is disparaging other religions. You can promote something without disparaging other things ya know.

I don't need to Google them. I'm as aware of them as you are, and I don't like them either.

Excellent, some common ground at least.

I can go along with that. He wasn't violent and was not breaking the law. I just cannot even fathom the idea that he would actually think that seeing a sign of that nature would make anybody who was not a Christian think, "Really? Wow!

I agree with you there. But he still has the right to do it peacefully. In this time of political and religious violence peaceful protest/promotion should be encouraged and not disparaged. Don't you agree?

 

[Katzpur]

It is but that does not mean it is disparaging other religions. You can promote something without disparaging other things ya know.

Yeah, well this particular sign was kind of iffy in that regard.

Excellent, some common ground at least.

I'm always looking for common ground.

I agree with you there. But he still has the right to do it peacefully. In this time of political and religious violence peaceful protest/promotion should be encouraged and not disparaged. Don't you agree?

Well, I'm just trying to see it from the perspective of a non-Christian athlete. Let's say a Muslim was competing and saw that sign -- a sign that more or less threatened him with an eternity in Hell for not believing Jesus Christ was his Savior. Is that really the kind of message Jesus would want to send to someone at a worldwide event representing nations all over the world? To me, a more "Christian" sign -- for someone who felt inclined to hold up a sign at all -- would be something more along the lines of "Good luck, athletes! Compete safely!" That said, I agree that he had the "right" to display the sign he chose to display. I just don't feel it was in the best taste. It doesn't have to be about religion 100% of the time. Sometimes it should just be about humanity.

 

[Enoch07]

Well, I'm just trying to see it from the perspective of a non-Christian athlete. Let's say a Muslim was competing and saw that sign -- a sign that more or less threatened him with an eternity in Hell for not believing Jesus Christ was his Savior.

I understand. I see the atheism billboards though all the time and it does not effect my faith. But if someone is doubting their own faith enough to have it shook by a simple sign. Then I think the problem lies elsewhere. But that just my opinion.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Who told you these things? That has never been the doctrine of the LDS Church, nor have I ever heard it offered as a speculation or theory.

The closest theory I could think of was one that claimed that descendants of Ham were "fence-sitters" during the War in Heaven, and that was why they were cursed while upon the Earth.

However, not only was that theory completely destroyed by the leaders of the LDS Church (who claimed that there were no fence-sitters during the War in Heaven), but the false theory itself never made the claim that descendants of Ham were destined for Hell.

Latter-Day Saints reject the ideas of predestination, to either Heaven or Hell, and believe that all people have the potential to enter into God's Kingdom.

I thought I made it clear it was a personal encounter?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Apparently you did run into an extremist element, because that perspective has never been promoted by the LDS Church leadership.

I probably did...

 

[columbus]

Apparently you did run into an extremist element, because that perspective has never been promoted by the LDS Church leadership.

He isn't the only one.
I am gay. And I clearly remember what the LDS did to us in California over Prop 8.
Millions of dollars worth of lies. And they succeeded.
Tom

 

[columbus]

I probably did...

No.
Katzpur is different from Mormon. She is more moral than the Mormons as a group.

They'll probably catch up with her.
Not right away. It took them a while to get over the racist thing.
Tom

 

[Epic Beard Man]

No.
Katzpur is different from Mormon. She is more moral than the Mormons as a group.

They'll probably catch up with her.
Not right away. It took them a while to get over the racist thing.
Tom

I doubt any religion's members that subscribed to such an ideology completely "gets over it..."

 

[columbus]

I doubt any religion's members that subscribed to such an ideology completely "gets over it..."

Katzpur is better than most.
Tom

 

[Katzpur]

He isn't the only one.
I am gay. And I clearly remember what the LDS did to us in California over Prop 8.
Millions of dollars worth of lies. And they succeeded.
Tom

Okay, well maybe I misunderstood. I was of the opinion that we were talking specifically about racial discrimination, and my comments pertained directly to that topic, not to discrimination of the LGBT community. I am very well aware of my Church's involvement with Prop 8, and you are very well aware of my own personal feelings on the matter. I am a strong supporter of LGBT rights and I will stand up to anyone who disagrees with my position on these rights. I don't know what else I can do.

 

[Katzpur]

I understand. I see the atheism billboards though all the time and it does not effect my faith. But if someone is doubting their own faith enough to have it shook by a simple sign. Then I think the problem lies elsewhere. But that just my opinion.

It doesn't affect my faith either. But a sign that says "Jesus = Heaven. No Jesus = Hell" is intended to shock and instill fear in people who are not Christians. I don't find tactics of that sort particularly "Christian."

 

[Enoch07]

It doesn't affect my faith either. But a sign that says "Jesus = Heaven. No Jesus = Hell" is intended to shock and instill fear in people who are not Christians. I don't find tactics of that sort particularly "Christian."

I disagree there. It might shock someone who has never heard of Christianity before. But the message is a core message of Christianity. Which is why we are called Christians. And most people watching the Olympics on tv are aware of that so the shock and awe value, if any, is miniscule.

 

[Katzpur]

I disagree there. It might shock someone who has never heard of Christianity before. But the message is a core message of Christianity. Which is why we are called Christians. And most people watching the Olympics on tv are aware of that so the shock and awe value, if any, is miniscule.

I understand that this is what traditional Christianity teaches. I just see it differently. To me, Jesus Christ's gospel is all about love, not about fear. Of course, that's an oversimplification, and not one I really want to elaborate on here. I just don't believe that fear of hellfire should be the reason for a non-Christian to convert to Christianity.

 

[Enoch07]

I understand that this is what traditional Christianity teaches. I just see it differently. To me, Jesus Christ's gospel is all about love, not about fear. Of course, that's an oversimplification, and not one I really want to elaborate on here. I just don't believe that fear of hellfire should be the reason for a non-Christian to convert to Christianity.

I agree. I am not a fan of what I call "fire and brimstone" preaching, which is what you are talking about. It sends the wrong message as you point out. The guy is shooting himself and Christianity in the foot imo. But it's his right, and there is nothing I can do about, but lead by example in another way.

 

[Jane.Doe]

I disagree there. It might shock someone who has never heard of Christianity before. But the message is a core message of Christianity. Which is why we are called Christians. And most people watching the Olympics on tv are aware of that so the shock and awe value, if any, is miniscule.

I'm with Katz: such signs are essetainaily using fear tactics. It doesn't matter if a person has heard the same fear tactics a million times.