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Proselytizing signs

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
As I watch the Olympic luge team relay, I notice a guy in the grandstand at the finish with a sign that says:

JESUS = HEAVEN
NO JESUS = HELL

Do people actually expect this sort of thing to win converts?
My thoughts on the sign are that it was inappropriate and kind of stupid.

I know that a great many people were afraid that if Salt Lake City ever got the Olympics, they'd be bombarded with proselytizing everywhere they went. Well, guess what? The Mormon presence was non-existent, except on Temple Square, which is Church property. Everyone was welcome there, but no one was expected to go if they didn't want to. The only proselytizing that was going on anywhere in the area was that of a few anti-Mormon groups who were holding up signs saying Mormons were going to Hell. The Church promised no proselytizing and we kept our word.
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
You haven't shown how it is odd.
Wasting a lot of time and money just to wave about a silly sign that won't persuade or convince anyone is rather odd (time and money that could've been spent doing more Christ-like things, such as feeding and clothing the needy). Which raises the question: why would someone do that unless they actually expected it to be effective, and if they did, how/why? What's also odd is how that innocuous line of questioning managed to cause some 'butthurt'.
Nope, but just be aware if someone makes a post complaining about a guy holding a sign peacefully, don't be sore when your called out for making a big deal over nothing.

Of course, as we've already well established... Nobody. Is. ****ing. Doing. That.
 
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columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Nope, but just be aware if someone makes a post complaining about a guy holding a sign peacefully, don't be sore when your called out for making a big deal over nothing.
Well, there's a whole 'nother thread about the outrage over a TV bimbo. She referred to people hearing voices as a sign of mental illness, even when they think it's Jesus speaking.

I realize that you didn't post in that one, but the OP found it worth starting a complaint thread about.
Tom
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Hmm... I had assumed that the sign was directed at unbelievers, not existing Christians, but your idea fits the facts, too.

So maybe he was trying to reinforce belief in Heaven and Hell as a way to keep people Christian? That’s probably the most plausible explanation so far.
You are overthinking his motives I would say. He just wants to be blunt and 'out there'. Why? Because he wants to be blunt and 'out there'. Why? He likes feather ruffing and getting people riled. Why? .......
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
You haven't shown how it is odd.
Well, how often has it happened in the past at an event of this sort? Since the definition of "odd" is "different from what is usual or expected," I don't think it's really even debatable that it's "odd."
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
Well, you're about 40 years behind on your understanding of Mormonism. I'm not going to deny that there was a racist policy in place for a number of years, or even try to justify it by saying "Well, most Christian denominations back then believed Blacks were cursed." What's wrong is wrong. You can't turn back the clock, but for the last forty years, there has been no policy of racial exclusion in the LDS Church.
I still would disagree with the idea that hate or racism were involved with the issuance of the Priesthood ban.

When all the relevant records are taken into consideration it becomes clear that the ban was implemented by way of commandment from the Lord received by revelation and that the lifting of the ban was also commanded from the Lord by way of revelation.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I still would disagree with the idea that hate or racism were involved with the issuance of the Priesthood ban.
I don't believe it was hatred, but I do believe racism was clearly involved, and I will argue that till the day I die -- with some pretty good evidence to support my position. Any time race is used as a disqualifier for anything, it's racism. There simply isn't any other meaning for racism. That said, I don't believe Mormons were ever taught to show any hostility towards Black people, that they were taught to discriminate against Blacks in secular matters, or that they were ever taught such nonsense as some people will accuse us of, namely that "Blacks are the spawn of Satan" or "Blacks are subhuman."

When all the relevant records are taken into consideration it becomes clear that the ban was implemented by way of commandment from the Lord received by revelation and that the lifting of the ban was also commanded from the Lord by way of revelation.
You show me where the Lord commanded it. I'll show you ten or twelve scriptures that would completely blow that the idea that it was ever a commandment out of the water.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
As I watch the Olympic luge team relay, I notice a guy in the grandstand at the finish with a sign that says:

JESUS = HEAVEN
NO JESUS = HELL

Do people actually expect this sort of thing to win converts?
I doubt it will win very many converts, since it seems so many are callous toward God now. Nevertheless, it is a simple straightforward message of an eternal reality which Jesus Himself shared in the NT more than anyone. If He thought it was an important warning and His entire point in coming to earth was to SAVE people from the eternal destruction of sin, then it must be a valuable message. I think the scriptures show that it is a message first and foremost of LOVE because God is concerned with each one's eternal destiny. Secondly, it's a message the Holy Spirit uses in the conscience of each person. Either way, one's attitude and response toward God is revealed and no one in the end will claim a lack of knowledge.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Not sure how atheism would bring hope to that situation though.
Not resorting to god, or relying on a deity as a crutch--things not exclusive to atheism--can drive to heart the knowledge that your own recovery is up to the effort you are willing to invest in it. Pray for recovery and health all you want, but at the end of the day it is up to you, and you alone, to make the effort to improve yourself. When your expectation is for god to take care of everything, it's going to lead to lots of disappointment.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
Would you mind citing any references?

I am a member a Latter-Day Saint (Mormon) and I can tell you that we do not preach "fire and brimstone", at least as far as I understand it.

Also, as to the supposed "curse" upon black people, that was just an attempt by some leaders of the Church to explain the temporary Priesthood ban placed on a particular genealogy of African males.

The Priesthood ban happened, but the reason(s) for why it was implemented in the first place is unknown outside our belief that God commanded it.

We do not teach that black people are "cursed" in any negative way.


I cannot "cite" anything as my experience was purely anecdotal. Not sure if there is an extremist view but I was told long ago that I would "burn in hell" and that "my kind" was cursed due to the curse of Ham. The experience never gave me the encouragement to contradict anything that was said as what was said was no different than what I've experienced before.
 

Epic Beard Man

Bearded Philosopher
No such thing as fire and brimstone in Mormonism. I was raised LDS and there was never, ever, ever any discussion of anything remotely related to the idea of a Lake of Fire where the wicked would burn for eternity. Mormonism actually teaches that almost everyone who has ever lived will end up in Heaven. So much for being left out.

Well, you're about 40 years behind on your understanding of Mormonism. I'm not going to deny that there was a racist policy in place for a number of years, or even try to justify it by saying "Well, most Christian denominations back then believed Blacks were cursed." What's wrong is wrong. You can't turn back the clock, but for the last forty years, there has been no policy of racial exclusion in the LDS Church.

You have a thing to learn about Mormonism before you make any further inaccurate or misleading statements.

It's something I've experienced. Again I am willing to concede that perhaps they were extreme. I'm speaking on experience.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
I cannot "cite" anything as my experience was purely anecdotal. Not sure if there is an extremist view but I was told long ago that I would "burn in hell" and that "my kind" was cursed due to the curse of Ham. The experience never gave me the encouragement to contradict anything that was said as what was said was no different than what I've experienced before.
Who told you these things? That has never been the doctrine of the LDS Church, nor have I ever heard it offered as a speculation or theory.

The closest theory I could think of was one that claimed that descendants of Ham were "fence-sitters" during the War in Heaven, and that was why they were cursed while upon the Earth.

However, not only was that theory completely destroyed by the leaders of the LDS Church (who claimed that there were no fence-sitters during the War in Heaven), but the false theory itself never made the claim that descendants of Ham were destined for Hell.

Latter-Day Saints reject the ideas of predestination, to either Heaven or Hell, and believe that all people have the potential to enter into God's Kingdom.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Nobody is trying to prevent him. Just discuss the motivation and thought processes behind some unusual behavior.

Nope just belittle someone for peacefully displaying a message.

To me, it kinda reeks of self righteous hypocrisy, "Look at how Christian I am!". While spending a bunch of money and time watching a sporting event, instead of doing anything in the "What Would Jesus Do" vein.

Your entitled to your opinion. But don't be sore when your called out on it.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Not resorting to god, or relying on a deity as a crutch--things not exclusive to atheism--can drive to heart the knowledge that your own recovery is up to the effort you are willing to invest in it. Pray for recovery and health all you want, but at the end of the day it is up to you, and you alone, to make the effort to improve yourself. When your expectation is for god to take care of everything, it's going to lead to lots of disappointment.

That is a very simplistic way of seeing people who pray as a religious habit.

It's not like we are praying for everything under the sun (although that may be true for some).

Sometimes, it's about things that are not our your control.

And also consider that sometimes not about things that we may be uncertain about. Not like we don't know we play a role in it.
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Well, how often has it happened in the past at an event of this sort? Since the definition of "odd" is "different from what is usual or expected," I don't think it's really even debatable that it's "odd."

Exactly, it's a sporting event. Lots of people bring signs, with lots of different messages. Had the Christians had a sign with an anti-christian message, then yes that's odd, but the message was a common one amongst Christianity.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Nope just belittle someone for peacefully displaying a message.
Asking questions about his motivation isn't the same as belittling someone.
It wasn't even about him, really. It was about something he did.
This is in stark contrast to what happened when somebody on ABC made a comment about hearing voices.

Your entitled to your opinion. But don't be sore when your called out on it.
I am not sore. Just looking for an explanation.
So don't get sore about it.
Tom
 

Enoch07

It's all a sick freaking joke.
Premium Member
Asking questions about his motivation isn't the same as belittling someone.
It wasn't even about him, really. It was about something he did.

It usually turns from a discussion and a innocent question into belittlement. Have you not read any threads here on RF at all?

I am not sore. Just looking for an explanation.
So don't get sore about it.

I would say sore. People have no problems questioning this guy with a sign here. But when their own actions are questioned people tend to be a bit defensive about it.
 

Prestor John

Well-Known Member
We actually already had this conversation a while back with other members of the Church.

LDS (Mormon) Only: Blacks, the Priesthood and the Seed of Cain

I was on one side, claiming that it had been a commandment and that no racism took place, and everyone else was against me. (Figures! ^^)

Anyways, you can go there to read my main points for why I believe the way I do.
I don't believe it was hatred, but I do believe racism was clearly involved, and I will argue that till the day I die -- with some pretty good evidence to support my position.
I would love to see this evidence.
Any time race is used as a disqualifier for anything, it's racism. There simply isn't any other meaning for racism.
I vehemently disagree.

For many centuries only Israelites could worship in the Temple.

Does that make God racist?
That said, I don't believe Mormons were ever taught to show any hostility towards Black people, that they were taught to discriminate against Blacks in secular matters, or that they were ever taught such nonsense as some people will accuse us of, namely that "Blacks are the spawn of Satan" or "Blacks are subhuman."
You're right. I don't know where people get that stuff.
You show me where the Lord commanded it.
In the link provided above I shared two First Presidency statements claiming that the ban was a commandment received from the Lord through revelation,

"August 17, 1949

“It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization, to the effect that Negroes may become members of the Church but that they are not entitled to the priesthood at the present time.”

“December 15, 1969

“From the beginning of this dispensation, Joseph Smith and all succeeding presidents of the Church have taught that Negroes, while spirit children of a common Father, and the progeny of our earthly parents Adam and Eve, were not yet to receive the priesthood, for reasons which we believe are known to God, but which He has not made fully known to man.

Our living prophet, President David O. McKay, has said, “The seeming discrimination by the Church toward the Negro is not something which originated with man; but goes back into the beginning with God….

“Revelation assures us that this plan antedates man’s mortal existence, extending back to man’s pre-existent state.”

President McKay has also said, “Sometime in God’s eternal plan, the Negro will be given the right to hold the priesthood.”

Until God reveals His will in this matter, to him whom we sustain as a prophet, we are bound by that same will. Priesthood, when it is conferred on any man comes as a blessing from God, not of men.”

“Were we the leaders of an enterprise created by ourselves and operated only according to our own earthly wisdom, it would be a simple thing to act according to popular will. But we believe that this work is directed by God and that the conferring of the priesthood must await His revelation. To do otherwise would be to deny the very premise on which the Church is established.”

“We join with those throughout the world who pray that all of the blessings of the gospel of Jesus Christ may in due time of the Lord become available to men of faith everywhere. Until that time comes we must trust in God, in His wisdom and in His tender mercy.”

You can read both of the statements in full here:

Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood/Statements - FairMormon"
I'll show you ten or twelve scriptures that would completely blow that the idea that it was ever a commandment out of the water.
Alright shoot.

Just wondering why you didn't share them during that past discussion. :)
 
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