Proselytizing signs

[Father Heathen]

That is what I heard from a Christian on another forum today... He said that once you know about Jesus you are without an excuse, but if you had not known you would not be going to hell.

So then missionaries aren't actually "saving" souls since those they're trying to "witness" to would otherwise go to heaven anyway due to ignorance, and instead they're actually causing souls to be "damned".

 

[Enoch07]

As I watch the Olympic luge team relay, I notice a guy in the grandstand at the finish with a sign that says:

JESUS = HEAVEN
NO JESUS = HELL

Do people actually expect this sort of thing to win converts?

They are free to do it. Just as you are free to complain about it. I don't see what the issue is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They are free to do it. Just as you are free to complain about it. I don't see what the issue is.

Since when is asking a question considered an issue?

 

[Enoch07]

Since when is asking a question considered an issue?

I never said it was. Which is why I said:

I don't see what the issue is.

The proselytizer is within his rights. He is not doing anything wrong.

 

[Father Heathen]

I never said it was. Which is why I said:

The proselytizer is within his rights. He is not doing anything wrong.

No one said that there was an issue nor that there was anything wrong. The question was what does he hope to achieve? Does he believe his approach will be effective? etc. People have a right to wear their underwear on their head too but it isn't unreasonable to question their choice for doing so.

 

[QuestioningMind]

As I watch the Olympic luge team relay, I notice a guy in the grandstand at the finish with a sign that says:

JESUS = HEAVEN
NO JESUS = HELL

Do people actually expect this sort of thing to win converts?

I doubt they care about converting anyone. Folks like that just want to make a spectacle out of their religion.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I wasn’t think of it from a scare tactic perspective; I was thinking more “what sort of person are they trying to reach?”

Presumably, he’s trying to reach someone who can read English and knows what Heaven and Hell are, but doesn’t know that Christians (or at least whatever sect this person belongs to) claim that a person has to accept Jesus to get to Heaven and avoid Hell.

I mean, this guy went to a lot of effort and expense to get a seat at the Olympics that was right in line with the cameras; presumably, he thinks he’ll affect somebody... but who? Whose mind would be changed by that sign? Who, because of that sign, would say to themselves “hmm... maybe I should look into this Jesus person?”

He's not trying to affect anyone... its all about his own ego and showing everyone what a devout and holy person he is.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That makes me think of the people around here I have heard, Christians, who say before they were Christian they knew god existed but didn't know how to approach him until the read the Bible, learned about Jesus, and all that stuff. And some of the alternatives of that sign I've seen, such "Know Jesus = Heaven/No Jesus = Hell." Or even a billboard currently up around here that asks "Where will you go when you die? Heaven -or- Hell?"

I'm going to DISNEYLAND!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have never been impressed with the scare tactic. So sad for someone to go through life thinking people are going to hell, I mean if you truly believed that, wouldn't it be horrible???

Yes, I agree it would be horrible even horrific to believe in a forever-burning hell.
Who, in their right mind, would even roast a bad dog over a fire pit________
The problem often is that people confuse a religious-myth hell teaching as if it is the Bible's hell.
False clergy often use fire as a scare tactic to try to control the flock.
Whereas, what the Bible really teaches is biblical hell is just mankind's temporary grave.
JKV translated the word Gehenna into English as hell fire. That's when those flames started to burn.
Gehenna was simply a garbage pit where things were 'destroyed forever' Not roasted forever.
Can anyone think of someone righteous who went to hell __________
According to Acts of the Apostles 2:27 righteous Jesus went to hell the day he died.
Since Jesus, and the OT, teach the dead know nothing but sleep -> John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, then the Bible's hell is simply mankind temporary stone-cold grave for the sleeping dead.
So, the Bible 'sets us free' from what is religiously false. Biblical truth sets us free from non-biblical teachings just wrongly taught as being Scripture. Pleasant sleep to all and to all a good night.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Could be.

I’ve heard some people (presuppositionalists, IIRC) explain that when they do what looks like ineffective proselytizing, their objective isn’t to convert: they think that God has already predestined people for Heaven and Hell. Instead, what they’re doing is trying to convict unbelievers: they’re trying to ensure that unbelievers will know enough about Jesus that they’ll be “without excuse” when God condemns them to Hell.

Maybe that’s what this is.

I'm more inclined to think that the signholder is busily racking up brownie points with God because he's going to the trouble to hold a sign at the Olympics, rather than, say, using the money to help feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, cure the ill, etc....because that **** is HARD WORK...

 

[Enoch07]

No one said that there was an issue nor that there was anything wrong. The question was what does he hope to achieve? Does he believe his approach will be effective? etc. People have a right to wear their underwear on their head too but it isn't unreasonable to question their choice for doing so.

I think he does think it will achieve something, otherwise he wouldn't be doing it. He is not impeding anyone or being violent, so he is well within his rights.

I don't agree with the man with the signs approach. I don't like it when people do this on the random street corners. But it's a free country and they are within their right so, it is what it is.

 

[Stanyon]

One random guy with a sign caused all this? Probably a Russian troll trying to cause division.
Heh heh heh

 

[Father Heathen]

I think he does think it will achieve something, otherwise he wouldn't be doing it. He is not impeding anyone or being violent, so he is well within his rights.

Again, no one has suggested otherwise. People are only wondering if people who to take that approach realize how ineffective it is. It would be like an atheist holding a sign that simply said "God is a lie." He too would be within his rights, but you would also agree that he's not likely to convince anyone to abandon their faith, either.

 

[Enoch07]

Again, no one has suggested otherwise. People are only wondering if people who to take that approach realize how ineffective it is. It would be like an atheist holding a sign that simply said "God is a lie." He too would be within his rights, but you would also agree that he's not likely to convince anyone to abandon their faith, either.

Oh I agree. But long as neither is hurting anyone there is not much that can be said about it.

 

[Trailblazer]

So then missionaries aren't actually "saving" souls since those they're trying to "witness" to would otherwise go to heaven anyway due to ignorance, and instead they're actually causing souls to be "damned".

Yes, that is one way to look at it, but from the perspective of the missionaries they are giving you a chance to get to heaven.

And they really do not believe you will go to heaven unless you believe in Jesus even if you did not know. To clarify what I said before, just because you would not be going to hell if you had not known about Jesus, that does not mean you would have been going to heaven... There might be some other place reserved for you that ain't exactly pretty....

Mind you, I do not believe any of those places exist because there is no geography in a spiritual world... When we die our soul takes with it the good qualities we acquired in this world and continues on its journey, where it will continue to develop and pass through endless stages of existence. None of our bad qualities go with us, so if we did not acquire good qualities in this life we will handicapped, like a child who acquired no arms and legs in the womb world, but we can still advance by the prayers of others and the mercy of God... Eggs-actly how that happens is anyone's best guess.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh I agree. But long as neither is hurting anyone there is not much that can be said about it.

We can say "why is he doing it?" "What is he doing it for" "Who is he doing this for?"

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They are free to do it. Just as you are free to complain about it. I don't see what the issue is.

I’m not complaining; I’m trying to understand what he might have been trying to accomplish.

Why would someone who, presumably, wanted to convert as many people as he could to Christianity say to himself “yes, this is the best way to do it?”

 

[Enoch07]

We can say "why is he doing it?" "What is he doing it for" "Who is he doing this for?"

All those are apparent. But yeah your free to question to your hearts content. Just don't be sore about it when someone calls it out.

 

[Glaurung]

So then missionaries aren't actually "saving" souls since those they're trying to "witness" to would otherwise go to heaven anyway due to ignorance, and instead they're actually causing souls to be "damned".

Contra the statement made by our hypothetical Christian, it is more the case that someone who had no access to the Gospel cannot be condemned for their ignorance alone. Nevertheless that does not mean said person will necessarily go to Heaven. Anyone who dies in a state of unrepentant sin will go to Hell. Christian or not.

 

[Enoch07]

Why would someone who, presumably, wanted to convert as many people as he could to Christianity say to himself “yes, this is the best way to do it?”

I don't believe in trying to convert people.

Should someone come to me and ask questions. I will answer to the best of my ability, or if I don't know the answer I have no issues admitting as much. If they decide to convert on their own based on my answers then so be it. That being said, I am not the one doing anything there. They are doing it of their own free will. Which is how it is supposed to happen. Other than RF where I am a "loud mouth". I don't speak on religion much irl, unless someone else opens that door first.

Trying to convert people is pretty much a waste of time. BUT he is free to do so to his hearts content. Regardless of who does or does not agree with him or what he hopes to accomplish.