Prophet Mohammed's (pbuhap) final Will

[mojtaba]

​

Reject them, if you can.

سَأَصْرِفُ عَنْ آيَاتِيَ الَّذِينَ يَتَكَبَّرُونَ فِي الْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ الْحَقِّ وَإِن يَرَوْا كُلَّ آيَةٍ لَّا يُؤْمِنُوا بِهَا وَإِن يَرَوْا سَبِيلَ الرُّشْدِ لَا يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلًا وَإِن يَرَوْا سَبِيلَ الْغَيِّ يَتَّخِذُوهُ سَبِيلًا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِنَا وَكَانُوا عَنْهَا غَافِلِينَ​

Quran, 7:146
Soon I shall turn away from My signs those who are unduly arrogant in the earth: [even] though they should see every sign, they will not believe in it, and if they see the way of rectitude they will not take it as [their] way, and if they see the way of error they will take it as [their] way. That is because they deny Our signs and are oblivious to them.’

 

[Godobeyer]

Wa Alaykum As-Salam.

Dear brother, Quran says that martyrs are alive and we must not call them as dead. So that, because the status of Prophets and the most pious men and women is higher than or at least equal with martyrs, we must not think that Prophets and Imams are now dead.

No problem brother, we had different views/understanding in this.

Yes, the martyrs are alive at Allah special place(maybe Paradise),NOT in this life,in this earth.(AS WE CALL VIRTUAL).

It's does not mean that we should call their help.

There will be a time all creatures will be dead.

Surah Ali 'Imran [3:185]
Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion.

Surah Az-Zumar [39:30]
Indeed, you are to die, and indeed, they are to die.

Surah Ali 'Imran [3:144]
Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

No, Zadakallahu Khayra. It was not only about Jinns. Prophet Solomon asked help from his people to do a strange doing. There were two groups between his people, 1.Jinns and 2.humans. One of the humans who had more power than the powerful one of jinns, did the request of Prophet Solomon and Prophet Solomon said that he indeed indirectly asked it from Allah. That man was Asif ibn Barkhia.
See
1.Tafseer At-Tabari ( ـ{ قَالَ الَّذِي عِنْده عِلْم مِنْ الْكِتَاب } وَهُوَ رَجُل مِنْ الْإِنْس عِنْده عِلْم مِنْ الْكِتَاب فِيهِ اِسْم اللَّه الْأَكْبَر , الَّذِي إِذَا دُعِيَ بِهِ أَجَابَ : { أَنَا آتِيك بِهِ قَبْل أَنْ يَرْتَدّ إِلَيْك طَرْفك } فَدَعَا بِالِاسْمِ وَهُوَ عِنْده قَائِم , فَاحْتَمَلَ الْعَرْش اِحْتِمَالًا حَتَّى وُضِعَ بَيْن يَدَيْ سُلَيْمَان , وَاَللَّه صَنَعَ ذَلِكَ): تفاسير وتراجم القرآن - القرآن الكريم - موقع الإسلام

2.Tafseer Ibn Kathir (" قَالَ الَّذِي عِنْده عِلْم مِنْ الْكِتَاب " قَالَ اِبْن عَبَّاس وَهُوَ آصَف كَاتِب سُلَيْمَان وَكَذَا رَوَى مُحَمَّد بْن إِسْحَاق عَنْ يَزِيد بْن رُومَان أَنَّهُ آصَف بْن بَرْخِيَاء وَكَانَ صِدِّيقًا يَعْلَم الِاسْم الْأَعْظَم وَقَالَ قَتَادَة كَانَ مُؤْمِنًا مِنْ الْإِنْس وَاسْمه آصَف وَكَذَا قَالَ أَبُو صَالِح وَالضَّحَّاك وَقَتَادَة إِنَّهُ كَانَ مِنْ الْإِنْس زَادَ قَتَادَة مِنْ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيل): تفاسير وتراجم القرآن - القرآن الكريم - موقع الإسلام

And others...



Sura Az-Zukhruf [43]
Blessed is He to whom belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and with Him is the knowledge of the Hour, and to Him you will be brought back. (85) Those whom they invoke besides Him have no power of intercession, except those who are witness to the truth and who know [for whom to intercede]. (86)

The point is this that we must not believe that the intercession of others is besides the intercession of Almighty Allah, what polytheists believe in. Indeed, Quran rejects this (i.e., intercession of others is besides the intercession of Almighty Allah and without relation to Him ), not the intercession of others who intercede by Allah's leave. See the above verses again.


Do you have any reason for rejecting those Sahih Hadiths?

1-Yes,Solomon (pbuh) ask the help DIRECTLY from his people (Jinnies and humans),they were not dead.I mean personaly.


Allah order us to call him directly, without mediator

Surah Al-Baqarah [2:186]
And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.


Surah Ghafir [40:60]
And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.

Quran, 2:255
Who is it that may intercede with Him except with His permission?

This is not a clear permission to ask the help (for current business life)from His prophets or Imams.
My interpretation it's about personal intercede (individual).

it's mean there is not intercede EXCEPT with His permission, so now did He gave permission to make intercede to prophets and Imams ?


I reject every Hadith,when it's contradict with Quran,or fact life.

 

[mojtaba]

No problem brother, we had different views/understanding in this.

Yes, the martyrs are alive at Allah special place(maybe Paradise),NOT in this life,in this earth.(AS WE CALL VIRTUAL).

It's does not mean that we should call their help.

There will be a time all creatures will be dead.

Surah Ali 'Imran [3:185]
Every soul will taste death, and you will only be given your [full] compensation on the Day of Resurrection. So he who is drawn away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise has attained [his desire]. And what is the life of this world except the enjoyment of delusion.

Surah Az-Zumar [39:30]
Indeed, you are to die, and indeed, they are to die.

Surah Ali 'Imran [3:144]
Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful.

Yes brother. We do not have any discord about this issue that all people, even Prophets and infallible Imams (in our belief) will miss their life in this world. I did not say you that Prophets or infallible Imams (exept Imam Mahdi in Shia and some Sunni belief) are alive in the earth, I said that they are alive in the Barzakh world. Allah says in Quran that we must not suppose that good people like martyrs are dead. Allah even says that we must not call them as dead ( و لا تقولوا لمن یقتل فی سبیل الله اموات بل احیاء و لکن لا تشعرون ). But unfortunately Wahhabis think that people like martyrs, Prophets, etc. are dead and call them as dead, while Quran has not let us suppose and say this.

Brother, Allah Ta'ala says that the pious men and women are indeed alive (in Barzakh world, not in this world). Also, there are many authentic Hadiths in your books that the dead ( who are indeed alive in Barzakh world و لکن لا تشعرون) can hear our sounds when we talk with them (see prevoius posts of mine). Quran says that martyrs who are lower than Prophets in status 1.are now alive and 2.provided by Allah, 3.exulting in what Allah has given them out of His grace, 4.and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them from those left behind them, that they will have no fear, nor will they grieve. So that, they have a life in Barzakh world which is nearly like our life in this world, exept that we have many problems and difficulties in this world, while they do not have any difficulties in their life in the Barzakh world.

If we can ask help from those that are alive in this world, why can not we ask help from those that are alive in the Barzakh world??? Quran and Sunnah never reject what you incorrectly think that is Haram.
Note that asking help from others never means asking them for help besides Allah Ta'ala. It is like what Prophet Solomon did, i.e. asking them while believing that what others do is indeed by Allah's power and leave, and also what is done by others is indeed the grace of Allah and it is, in fact Allah Who helps. Also, asking others means asking them to ask Allah for what we want, so that may He give us what we want. See again the verses which are about Prophet Solomon and his people from Jinns and humans.

1-Yes,Solomon (pbuh) ask the help DIRECTLY from his people (Jinnies and humans),they were not dead.I mean personaly.

Yes, there were not dead. But Quran also says that those pious men and women that die ,i.e. leave this world, are not realy dead and are alive in another world, i.e., Barzakh world, and they are in its Paradises. Also Allah orders us not to think that they are dead and even not to call them as dead. I do not know my brother, why do Wahhabi scholars try to call them as dead and suppose that they are dead, while Allah's order is completely unlike this.

Allah order us to call him directly, without mediator

Surah Al-Baqarah [2:186]
And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me - indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me [by obedience] and believe in Me that they may be [rightly] guided.

Surah Ghafir [40:60]
And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.

This is not a clear permission to ask the help (for current business life)from His prophets or Imams.
My interpretation it's about personal intercede (individual).

it's mean there is not intercede EXCEPT with His permission, so now did He gave permission to make intercede to prophets and Imams ?

I reject every Hadith,when it's contradict with Quran,or fact life.

My dear brother those verses do not mean that only we must ask Allah for help directly, i.e., wihout any mediators. Those verses are about polytheists that believe in godhood nature for their idols or goddesses and call upon only them (,not Allah) to help them besides Allah and also worship them besides Allah (And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.).

But, when a non-Wahhabi Sunni, or Shia says Ya Muhammad, Ya Ali, etc., he/she never thinks that they can help him besides Allah, and he/she never believes in any godhood nature for them and never worships them. He/She indeed calls upon only Allah through some of His the most pious servants, just like the ff verses:

Chapter 12:
They [i.e., the sons of Prophet Jacob] said, "O our father [Ya Abana], ask [Allah] for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners." (97) He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (98)

This is exactly asking Allah indirectly through the most pious servants of Him. If this isn't, so what is it??!

63:5
When they [i.e., hypocrites] are told, ‘Come, that Allah’s Apostle may ask [Allah] for forgiveness for you,’ they twist their heads, and you see them turn away disdainfully.

This verse says that only hypocrites reject the mediation of Prophet Muhammad for asking Allah for forgiveness for them.

In addition, Allah Himself ordered His Prophet to call some the most pious men and women of his family to pray:
3:61
Should anyone argue with you concerning him, after the knowledge that has come to you, say, ‘Come! Let us call our sons [i.e., Imam Hasan and Hosayn] and your sons, our women [i.e., Lady Fatima] and your women, our souls [i.e., Imam Ali] and your souls, then let us pray earnestly, and call down Allah’s curse upon the liars.’

Brother, these are Quranic Facts. Allah has never forbiden calling Him indirectly through the most pious servants of Him. This is the Quran which says: They [i.e., the sons of Prophet Jacob] said, "O our father [Ya Abana], ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners." (97) He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (98)[Sura Yoosof]. According to these verses, the sons of Prophet Jacob called him (Ya Abana: O our father) to mediate for asking Allah for forgiveness of their sins. If their doing was incorrect, instead of accepting their request, Prophet Jacob had to say them that they must go and call Allah for forgiveness of their sins directly. But, Prophet Jacob was pleased with their doing and accepted their request for mediating. Also, Allah Ta'ala was pleased with their doing, because He mentioned their doing in His book which لم یجعل له عوجا.

My dear brother please first try to understand Quran correctly and as a whole, and then say those Sahih Hadiths are in contradiction with Quran.

WaffaqakAllah wa 'Eeyyana! Wa dumtum fi Ri'ayatillah!

 

[Godobeyer]

If we can ask help from those that are alive in this world, why can not we ask help from those that are alive in the Barzakh world???

Salam,
I just Quote some posts to deliver my opinion.

Yes ,brother they are alive in Barzakh NOT in this life, Allah care about them there.

Surah Ali 'Imran [3:169]
And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision.

My dear brother those verses do not mean that only we must ask Allah for help directly, i.e., wihout any mediators. Those verses are about polytheists that believe in godhood nature for their idols or goddesses and call upon only them (,not Allah) to help them besides Allah and also worship them besides Allah (And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.).

Allah never ask us to call Him by mediator.

But, when a non-Wahhabi Sunni, or Shia says Ya Muhammad, Ya Ali, etc., he/she never thinks that they can help him besides Allah, and he/she never believes in any godhood nature for them and never worships them. He/She indeed calls upon only Allah through some of His the most pious servants, just like the ff verses:

That's what I said , it's about believe NOT calling

Chapter 12:
They [i.e., the sons of Prophet Jacob] said, "O our father [Ya Abana], ask [Allah] for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners." (97) He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (98)

This is exactly asking Allah indirectly through the most pious servants of Him. If this isn't, so what is it??!

That's Shawa'a for forgiveness, NOT life business help , it's directly to request to their living father .

63:5
When they [i.e., hypocrites] are told, ‘Come, that Allah’s Apostle may ask [Allah] for forgiveness for you,’ they twist their heads, and you see them turn away disdainfully.

This verse says that only hypocrites reject the mediation of Prophet Muhammad for asking Allah for forgiveness for them.

That's also the same situation.(Shafaa)

In addition, Allah Himself ordered His Prophet to call some the most pious men and women of his family to pray:
3:61
Should anyone argue with you concerning him, after the knowledge that has come to you, say, ‘Come! Let us call our sons [i.e., Imam Hasan and Hosayn] and your sons, our women [i.e., Lady Fatima] and your women, our souls [i.e., Imam Ali] and your souls, then let us pray earnestly, and call down Allah’s curse upon the liars.’

Brother, these are Quranic Facts. Allah has never forbiden calling Him indirectly through the most pious servants of Him. This is the Quran which says: They [i.e., the sons of Prophet Jacob] said, "O our father [Ya Abana], ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners." (97) He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (98)[Sura Yoosof]. According to these verses, the sons of Prophet Jacob called him (Ya Abana: O our father) to mediate for asking Allah for forgiveness of their sins. If their doing was incorrect, instead of accepting their request, Prophet Jacob had to say them that they must go and call Allah for forgiveness of their sins directly. But, Prophet Jacob was pleased with their doing and accepted their request for mediating. Also, Allah Ta'ala was pleased with their doing, because He mentioned their doing in His book which لم یجعل له عوجا.

My dear brother please first try to understand Quran correctly and as a whole, and then say those Sahih Hadiths are in contradiction with Quran.

WaffaqakAllah wa 'Eeyyana! Wa dumtum fi Ri'ayatillah!

It's seems we are in disagreement.
Allah in Quran never gave exemple of calling help from death personality (from Barzakh)
He order us, to ask Him in personal.


Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful.

Say, "To Allah belongs [the right to allow] intercession entirely. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. Then to Him you will be returned."

 

[mojtaba]

Salam,
I just Quote some posts to deliver my opinion.

Yes ,brother they are alive in Barzakh NOT in this life, Allah care about them there.

Surah Ali 'Imran [3:169]
And never think of those who have been killed in the cause of Allah as dead. Rather, they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision.

Salam brother.

Yes, I frequently said that they are alive in Barzakh, not in this world, but Allah says that we should not think that they are dead. He even orders us not to call them as dead. But unfortunately you are trying to clasify pious servants of Allah as dead and alive, while Allah says that this clasification is not correct and we must not call them as dead. Right?

Allah says that Allah Himself, Prophet Muhammad and the faithful (we believe that these are 12 Imams) see our deeds.
9:105
And say, ‘Go on working: Allah certainly sees your deeds, and His Apostle and the faithful [as well], and you will be returned to the Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, and He will inform you concerning what you used to do.

Note that the letter 'Sin' (س) in the verb 'Sayara' (...سيرى الله عملكم) is not for the future tense. It is for emphasizing (Allah certainly sees ...). See here for a Quranic example (السين للتأكيد دون التسويف: Sin is for emphasizing, rather than creating a verb which has the future tense ). Allah now sees our deeds and it isn't correct and rational to say that Allah will see our deeds that we now do in future. Allah says in 96:14, 'Does he not know that Allah sees [him]?' Or He says in 10:6: 'You do not engage in any work, neither do you recite any part of the Quran, nor do you perform any deed without Our being witness over you when you are engaged therein'. So, the letter Sin in the verb سیری is only for emphasizing. See here for another example (وسأخبركم ) : السين للتأكيد لا للاستقبال): Sin is for emphasizing, not for future tense).

So, Allah Himself, Prophet Muhammad and the faithful (we believe that these are 12 Imams) see our deeds now.

Allah never ask us to call Him by mediator.

So, what was the doing of sons of Prophet Jacob who called Allah by mediation of their father? Brother, the verse is clear. They called their father to mediate for them, so that he may ask Allah for their forgiveness. If Prophet Jacob was not mediator, so what was he?

I do not know, you either do not want to accept this vesre, or my definition for mediator is differnt from that of yours.
In my view, mediator means who prays for you instead of yourself, i.e., he/she asks Allah a thing for you, instead of asking you yourself directly from Allah Ta'ala. This definition for 'mediator' is obvious in the verse. The sons of Prophet Jacob asked him to ask Allah for their forgiveness, instead of asking they themselves it from Allah directly.

Here is another Quranic example:
Chapter 7
Whenever a plague fell upon them, they would say, ‘O Moses [Ya Musa], invoke your Lord for us by the covenant He has made with you. If you remove the plague from us, we will certainly believe in you and let the Children of Israel go along with you.’(134) But when We had removed the plague from them until a term that they should have completed, behold, they broke their promise.(135)

They made Prophet Moses as their mediator and asked him to ask Allah for what they wanted, instead of asking Allah directly. And because their doing was not incorrect, Prophet Moses did not say them that they must ask Allah directly, and also Allah Ta'ala accepted the mediation of Moses, so that He (swt) did what they wanted through the mediation of Prophet Moses.

That's Shawa'a for forgiveness, NOT life business help , it's directly to request to their living father .

That's also the same situation.(Shafaa)

Brother, what do you mean by the term 'Shafa'ah' (الشفاعة). I define Shafa'ah as the following: Asking a thing from Allah for others by a mediator. Also, can you say that what is the difference between Shafa'ah for forgiveness and Shafa'ah for other things? I believe that there is not any difference between them, and if you see the verse 7:134&135 (Shafa'ah of Prophet Moses for Pharaoh and his group) again, you can conclude that Prophets or other AwliyaAllah can do Shifa'ah for other things, besides forgiveness.

Also, Prophet Joseph did Shafa'ah for his father, i.e., Prophet Jacob, so that his blindness was treated by Allah.
12:93
[Joseph said,] Take this shirt of mine, and cast it upon my father’s face; he will regain his sight.

With this verse, see again the ff Sahih Hadith which I brough previously in post #16 and you thought that it is in contradiction with Quran:

A blind man came to the Prophet (sawaws) and said: "Pray to Allah to heal me." He said: "If you wish to store your reward for the Hereafter, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you." He said: "Supplicate." So he told him to perform ablution and do it well, to pray two Rak'ah, and to say this supplication: "O Allah, I ask of You and I turn my face towards You by virtue of the intercession of Muhammad the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad, I have turned to my Lord by virtue of your intercession concerning this need of mine so that it may be met. O Allah, accept his intercession concerning me".
( Sunan At-Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadrak of Hakim, etc.)

Haakim, Tirmidhi, Az-Zahabi, Albani and Sho'ayb 'Arnaoot have said that the narration is Sahih.

It's seems we are in disagreement.
Allah in Quran never gave exemple of calling help from death personality (from Barzakh)
He order us, to ask Him in personal.

Indeed, those you [polytheists] call upon besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful.

Say, "To Allah belongs [the right to allow] intercession entirely. To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. Then to Him you will be returned."

Brother, can you please prove for me that there are differences between those who are alive in this world and those who are alive in Barzakh world? Consider that Allah says in Quran [3:169, 170] that martyrs who are lower than Prophets in status 1.are now alive and 2. are provided by Allah, 3.exulting in what Allah has given them out of His grace, 4.and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them from those left behind them, that they will have no fear, nor will they grieve.
Also, those who are alive in Barzakh world, can talk and wish a thing for those who are in this world. See ff verses: Chapter 36, It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise [of Barzakh world]." He said: "Would that my people knew! (26) That my Lord (Allah) has forgiven me, and made me of the honoured ones!" (27)

Allah says that we must not suppose that his pious servants are dead (3:169), and even He says that we must not call them as dead (2:154).

Waffaqakallah brother!

 

[Godobeyer]

Salam brother.

Yes, I frequently said that they are alive in Barzakh, not in this world, but Allah says that we should not think that they are dead. He even orders us not to call them as dead. But unfortunately you are trying to clasify pious servants of Allah as dead and alive, while Allah says that this clasification is not correct and we must not call them as dead. Right?

Allah says that Allah Himself, Prophet Muhammad and the faithful (we believe that these are 12 Imams) see our deeds.
9:105
And say, ‘Go on working: Allah certainly sees your deeds, and His Apostle and the faithful [as well], and you will be returned to the Knower of the sensible and the Unseen, and He will inform you concerning what you used to do.

Note that the letter 'Sin' (س) in the verb 'Sayara' (...سيرى الله عملكم) is not for the future tense. It is for emphasizing (Allah certainly sees ...). See here for a Quranic example (السين للتأكيد دون التسويف: Sin is for emphasizing, rather than creating a verb which has the future tense ). Allah now sees our deeds and it isn't correct and rational to say that Allah will see our deeds that we now do in future. Allah says in 96:14, 'Does he not know that Allah sees [him]?' Or He says in 10:6: 'You do not engage in any work, neither do you recite any part of the Quran, nor do you perform any deed without Our being witness over you when you are engaged therein'. So, the letter Sin in the verb سیری is only for emphasizing. See here for another example (وسأخبركم ) : السين للتأكيد لا للاستقبال): Sin is for emphasizing, not for future tense).

So, Allah Himself, Prophet Muhammad and the faithful (we believe that these are 12 Imams) see our deeds now.

So, what was the doing of sons of Prophet Jacob who called Allah by mediation of their father? Brother, the verse is clear. They called their father to mediate for them, so that he may ask Allah for their forgiveness. If Prophet Jacob was not mediator, so what was he?

I do not know, you either do not want to accept this vesre, or my definition for mediator is differnt from that of yours.
In my view, mediator means who prays for you instead of yourself, i.e., he/she asks Allah a thing for you, instead of asking you yourself directly from Allah Ta'ala. This definition for 'mediator' is obvious in the verse. The sons of Prophet Jacob asked him to ask Allah for their forgiveness, instead of asking they themselves it from Allah directly.

Here is another Quranic example:
Chapter 7
Whenever a plague fell upon them, they would say, ‘O Moses [Ya Musa], invoke your Lord for us by the covenant He has made with you. If you remove the plague from us, we will certainly believe in you and let the Children of Israel go along with you.’(134) But when We had removed the plague from them until a term that they should have completed, behold, they broke their promise.(135)

They made Prophet Moses as their mediator and asked him to ask Allah for what they wanted, instead of asking Allah directly. And because their doing was not incorrect, Prophet Moses did not say them that they must ask Allah directly, and also Allah Ta'ala accepted the mediation of Moses, so that He (swt) did what they wanted through the mediation of Prophet Moses.


Brother, what do you mean by the term 'Shafa'ah' (الشفاعة). I define Shafa'ah as the following: Asking a thing from Allah for others by a mediator. Also, can you say that what is the difference between Shafa'ah for forgiveness and Shafa'ah for other things? I believe that there is not any difference between them, and if you see the verse 7:134&135 (Shafa'ah of Prophet Moses for Pharaoh and his group) again, you can conclude that Prophets or other AwliyaAllah can do Shifa'ah for other things, besides forgiveness.

Also, Prophet Joseph did Shafa'ah for his father, i.e., Prophet Jacob, so that his blindness was treated by Allah.
12:93
[Joseph said,] Take this shirt of mine, and cast it upon my father’s face; he will regain his sight.

With this verse, see again the ff Sahih Hadith which I brough previously in post #16 and you thought that it is in contradiction with Quran:

A blind man came to the Prophet (sawaws) and said: "Pray to Allah to heal me." He said: "If you wish to store your reward for the Hereafter, that is better, or if you wish, I will supplicate for you." He said: "Supplicate." So he told him to perform ablution and do it well, to pray two Rak'ah, and to say this supplication: "O Allah, I ask of You and I turn my face towards You by virtue of the intercession of Muhammad the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad, I have turned to my Lord by virtue of your intercession concerning this need of mine so that it may be met. O Allah, accept his intercession concerning me".
( Sunan At-Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Mustadrak of Hakim, etc.)

Haakim, Tirmidhi, Az-Zahabi, Albani and Sho'ayb 'Arnaoot have said that the narration is Sahih.



Brother, can you please prove for me that there are differences between those who are alive in this world and those who are alive in Barzakh world? Consider that Allah says in Quran [3:169, 170] that martyrs who are lower than Prophets in status 1.are now alive and 2. are provided by Allah, 3.exulting in what Allah has given them out of His grace, 4.and rejoicing for those who have not yet joined them from those left behind them, that they will have no fear, nor will they grieve.
Also, those who are alive in Barzakh world, can talk and wish a thing for those who are in this world. See ff verses: Chapter 36, It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise [of Barzakh world]." He said: "Would that my people knew! (26) That my Lord (Allah) has forgiven me, and made me of the honoured ones!" (27)

Allah says that we must not suppose that his pious servants are dead (3:169), and even He says that we must not call them as dead (2:154).

Waffaqakallah brother!

Salam
as brief to what we disucss.

Yes the Martyrs are alive at Barzakh not here in this life, they are in different world with Allah care.

You seems mixed between personal Shafaaشفاعة ة, between whom living with us in person,and whom died in this life,they are living in Barzakh.

And Shafaa for forgivenss in personal(praying,Dua) face to face, is huge different than ask the help(for hearth,wealth,...life business) from living soul in Barzakh.

Btw brother , if you notice a bit , you will find out all verse you posted are about Shafaa, in person, not about person living in Barzakh.


I think you mixed between Shafaa in person (face2face), and ask the help for being healthy,or ask victory,or job from persons are in barzakh !

 

[Godobeyer]

@mojtaba I just want to ask what kind of help you ask from persons are in barzakh ?

 

[mojtaba]

Salam
as brief to what we disucss.

Yes the Martyrs are alive at Barzakh not here in this life, they are in different world with Allah care.

You seems mixed between personal Shafaaشفاعة ة, between whom living with us in person,and whom died in this life,they are living in Barzakh.

And Shafaa for forgivenss in personal(praying,Dua) face to face, is huge different than ask the help(for hearth,wealth,...life business) from living soul in Barzakh.

Wa Alaykum As-Salam Wa Rahmatullah.

1.Dear brother, what is your evidence from Quran and Sahih Sunnah for rejecting the Shafa'ah of those who are alive in Barzakh world (i.e., intermediate world which is between this world and the world of Hearafter)? As I proved in previous posts of mine, Sahih Sunnah proves such Shafa'ah and Quran never rejects it. See post #16.
In addition, Allah says in Quran that Angels, who are honoured servants of Allah can do Shafa'ah for others with whom Allah is pleased. Chapter 21:
They say, ‘The All-beneficent has taken offsprings [from Angels].’ Immaculate is He! Indeed, they are [His] honoured servants. (26) They do not venture to speak ahead of Him, and they act by His command. (27) He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, and they do not intercede except for someone with whom He is well-pleased, and they are apprehensive for the fear of Him. (28)

But, we know that Angels do not have a life which is like ours in this world. Also, Allah has described them as honoured ones. Remember the ff verse, Chapter 36: It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise [of Barzakh world]." He said: "Would that my people knew! (26) That my Lord (Allah) has forgiven me, and made me of the honoured ones!" (27)
So, the pious servants of Allah who are in the Paradises of Barzakh world, are between honoured ones and we learned that honoured ones like Angels can do Shafa'ah for those with whom Allah is pleased.

2. Brother, why do you think that face to face contact is necessary for doing Shafa'ah?!
Prophet Joseph did Shafa'ah for his father, Prophet Jacob, while there was not any face to face contact. He was in a country and his father was in another one. Also, Sahih Sunnah reject this necessity (See post #16). Also, Angels can do Shafa'ah for us, while they do not have any face to face contact with us and also I do not think that they have a life which is like our life in this world.

3.My dear brother, Prophet Moses did Shafa'ah for an issue which was not forgiveness. It was the removing of the plague from Pharaoh and his group.
Asif ibn Barkhia (as) did Shafa'ah for Prophet Solomon (as), while the issue had not any relation to the forgiveness (Bringing the throne of Queen of Sheba from a contry to another one in an epsilon amont of the time).
Prophet Joseph did Shafa'ah for an issue that was not forgiveness. It was healing of blindness of Prophet Jacob.
Sahih Sunnah says that Prophet Muhammad did Shafa'ah during both his life in this world (i.e., healing of the blind one by Allah) and his life in Barzakh (rainning for Islamic Ummah that was in dire straits). See post #16.

Waffaqakallah!

 

[Godobeyer]

Wa Alaykum As-Salam Wa Rahmatullah.

1.Dear brother, what is your evidence from Quran and Sahih Sunnah for rejecting the Shafa'ah of those who are alive in Barzakh world (i.e., intermediate world which is between this world and the world of Hearafter)?

Salam

1- Shafa'a is personal (face to face) , my evidence that it's never happened in that way you believe. (both living in earth life).

2-Allah never mentionned in Quran about someone made Shafa'a with person living in barzakh.

3-My other evidence Allah never ask us to call him indirectly (by mediator), He order us to call him personally.

As I proved in previous posts of mine, Sahih Sunnah proves such Shafa'ah and Quran never rejects it. See post #16.
In addition, Allah says in Quran that Angels, who are honoured servants of Allah can do Shafa'ah for others with whom Allah is pleased. Chapter 21:
They say, ‘The All-beneficent has taken offsprings [from Angels].’ Immaculate is He! Indeed, they are [His] honoured servants. (26) They do not venture to speak ahead of Him, and they act by His command. (27) He knows that which is before them and that which is behind them, and they do not intercede except for someone with whom He is well-pleased, and they are apprehensive for the fear of Him. (28)

But, we know that Angels do not have a life which is like ours in this world. Also, Allah has described them as honoured ones. Remember the ff verse, Chapter 36: It was said (to him when the disbelievers killed him): "Enter Paradise [of Barzakh world]." He said: "Would that my people knew! (26) That my Lord (Allah) has forgiven me, and made me of the honoured ones!" (27)
So, the pious servants of Allah who are in the Paradises of Barzakh world, are between honoured ones and we learned that honoured ones like Angels can do Shafa'ah for those with whom Allah is pleased.

2. Brother, why do you think that face to face contact is necessary for doing Shafa'ah?!
Prophet Joseph did Shafa'ah for his father, Prophet Jacob, while there was not any face to face contact. He was in a country and his father was in another one. Also, Sahih Sunnah reject this necessity (See post #16). Also, Angels can do Shafa'ah for us, while they do not have any face to face contact with us and also I do not think that they have a life which is like our life in this world.

3.My dear brother, Prophet Moses did Shafa'ah for an issue which was not forgiveness. It was the removing of the plague from Pharaoh and his group.
Asif ibn Barkhia (as) did Shafa'ah for Prophet Solomon (as), while the issue had not any relation to the forgiveness (Bringing the throne of Queen of Sheba from a contry to another one in an epsilon amont of the time).
Prophet Joseph did Shafa'ah for an issue that was not forgiveness. It was healing of blindness of Prophet Jacob.
Sahih Sunnah says that Prophet Muhammad did Shafa'ah during both his life in this world (i.e., healing of the blind one by Allah) and his life in Barzakh (rainning for Islamic Ummah that was in dire straits). See post #16.

Waffaqakallah!

Shafaa'a (mediation) as commun understanding it is about forgiveness, face to face,(in personal).

If you mean it's about ask the help for life business, like being healthy or victory in war,being marry or get kids....etc definitly which I disagree with, there is no mediation in these life issues between Allah and us.

 

[mojtaba]

@mojtaba I just want to ask what kind of help you ask from persons are in barzakh ?

Any kind. For example, for seeking the true guidance, success in here and Hereafter life, removing of disasters, healing of diseases, etc.

It should be said that we do not use from Tawassol (التوسل) in all cases. We sometimes ask Allah directly and sometimes through his servants.

Note that when we ask help from Awlia'Allah, we want them to ask Allah for help. We do not believe that they can do a thing without the leave of Allah or they have power besides Allah's Power. We make them as Shafi' who is Wajih in the present of Allah. Like what the sons of Prophet Jacob did. Or like the Shafa'ah of Angels who are between the honoured servants of Allah, for those with whom Allah is pleased.
Read the following:

نقد کتاب «اصول المذهب الشيعة»ـ

نحوان من التوسل بالأنبياء والأئمة والصالحين​

الأول: قد يتوسل المتوسِّل وهو يعتقد بالتأثير المستقل للنبي والولي، من دون أن يكون هناك تأثير لله سبحانه وتعالى، أو يعتقد أن التأثير في تحقق طلبه هو مشترك بين الله وبين الشخص المتوسَّل به, وهذا النحو من التوسل أو الاستغاثة حرام وشرك بلا كلام، ولا يقول به أحد من أهل التوحيد.​

الثاني: أن يتوسل المتوسِّل وهو يعتقد أنّ المؤثر الوحيد في تحقق مطلبه هو الله تعالى دون غيره، لكنّه حيث يعلم بكثرة ذنوبه وتقصيره مثلاً مما يقع حائلاً دون استجابة دعائه من الله تعالى بشكل عاجل، فيتجه إلى النبيّ أو الوليّ فيطلب منه قضاء حاجته, وهذا في الحقيقة مرجعه إلى أنّ هذا الخائف من ذنوبه يقوم بتوسيط شخص مقرب ومحبوب عند الله سبحانه وتعالى كالأنبياء والأولياء والصالحين, معتقداً أنّ هؤلاء أحياء عند الله تعالى, وسوف يشفعون له بأنْ يطلبوا ويدعوا الله سبحان وتعالى في قضاء حاجته, وهذا الأمر لا يتخلله شرك؛ لأنّه في واقعه طلب من الله، وأمّا الشفيع فليس له إلاّ دور الواسطة الصالحة في قضاء الحاجة مع اعتقاد أنّ الأمر بيد الله سبحانه وتعالى.​

والكلام في التوسل والاستغاثة لا يُقصد به إلاّ هذا النحو, وهو ليس خلافاً شيعيّاً سنيّاً, بل هو خلاف إسلاميٌ سلفي وهابي, فالذي يزعم أنّ النبيّ بعد وفاته لا يضرّ ولا ينفع هم السلفية الوهابية بالخصوص؛ إذ يزعمون ـ كما ورد على لسان محمد بن عبد الوهاب ـ أنّ النبي «طارش» وأنّ عصا محمّد بن الوهاب أفضل منه(1)ـ

(1)
انظر: زيني دحلان، الدرر السنية: ص42, الناشر: مكتبة ايشينق, استانبول ـ تركيا, 1396هـ. وكلمة (طارش) معروفة في الدول المجاورة لإيران من العرب، فكانوا يقولون إذا بعث لهم قريب رسالةً بيد شخص: جاءنا طارش برسالةٍ من فلان, فالطارش يشبه ساعي البريد, وظيفته البلاغ وتوصيل ما كلّف به وينتهي الأمر, فالنبي’ عند السلفية الوهابية كانت مهمته تبليغ الرسالة وقد انتهى كل شيء بوفاته, وباتت عصا محمّد بن عبد الوهاب أفضل منه؛ لأنها ينتفع بها في قتل الحية ونحوها !!! يقول العالم السنّي المعاصر السيد حسن بن علي السقّاف عن الرسول’: «بأنّه رسولٌ له المكانة السامية على جميع الخلق فضلاً عن البشر، وجميعهم تحت لوائه, آدم عليه السلام فمن دونه، وقد أعطي ذلك بفضل الله تعالى: {وأن الفضل بيد الله يؤتيه من يشاء} فمن قال: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم عبارة عن حامل رسالة كساعي بريد أو طارش بلغة قوم، فقد ارتد وخرج من الإسلام وتزندق؛ لأنه استهان واستخف بالرسول الأعظم صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم، قال تعالى: {فالذين آمنوا وعزّروه ونصروه واتبعوا النور الذي أنزل معه أولئك هم المفلحون} ومعنى عزروه: عظموه ووقّروه ». السقاف، القول العطر في نبوة سيدنا الخضر: ص29, هامش 8، الناشر: دار الإمام النووي, عمّان ـ الأردن, ط1ـ 1413هـ.​

 

[Godobeyer]

Any kind. For example, for seeking the true guidance, success in here and Hereafter life, removing of disasters, healing of diseases, etc.

It should be said that we do not use from Tawassol (التوسل) in all cases. We sometimes ask Allah directly and sometimes through his servants.

Note that when we ask help from Awlia'Allah, we want them to ask Allah for help. We do not believe that they can do a thing without the leave of Allah or they have power besides Allah's Power. We make them as Shafi' who is Wajih in the present of Allah. Like what the sons of Prophet Jacob did. Or like the Shafa'ah of Angels who are between the honoured servants of Allah, for those with whom Allah is pleased.
Read the following:

نقد کتاب «اصول المذهب الشيعة»ـ

نحوان من التوسل بالأنبياء والأئمة والصالحين​

الأول: قد يتوسل المتوسِّل وهو يعتقد بالتأثير المستقل للنبي والولي، من دون أن يكون هناك تأثير لله سبحانه وتعالى، أو يعتقد أن التأثير في تحقق طلبه هو مشترك بين الله وبين الشخص المتوسَّل به, وهذا النحو من التوسل أو الاستغاثة حرام وشرك بلا كلام، ولا يقول به أحد من أهل التوحيد.​

الثاني: أن يتوسل المتوسِّل وهو يعتقد أنّ المؤثر الوحيد في تحقق مطلبه هو الله تعالى دون غيره، لكنّه حيث يعلم بكثرة ذنوبه وتقصيره مثلاً مما يقع حائلاً دون استجابة دعائه من الله تعالى بشكل عاجل، فيتجه إلى النبيّ أو الوليّ فيطلب منه قضاء حاجته, وهذا في الحقيقة مرجعه إلى أنّ هذا الخائف من ذنوبه يقوم بتوسيط شخص مقرب ومحبوب عند الله سبحانه وتعالى كالأنبياء والأولياء والصالحين, معتقداً أنّ هؤلاء أحياء عند الله تعالى, وسوف يشفعون له بأنْ يطلبوا ويدعوا الله سبحان وتعالى في قضاء حاجته, وهذا الأمر لا يتخلله شرك؛ لأنّه في واقعه طلب من الله، وأمّا الشفيع فليس له إلاّ دور الواسطة الصالحة في قضاء الحاجة مع اعتقاد أنّ الأمر بيد الله سبحانه وتعالى.​

والكلام في التوسل والاستغاثة لا يُقصد به إلاّ هذا النحو, وهو ليس خلافاً شيعيّاً سنيّاً, بل هو خلاف إسلاميٌ سلفي وهابي, فالذي يزعم أنّ النبيّ بعد وفاته لا يضرّ ولا ينفع هم السلفية الوهابية بالخصوص؛ إذ يزعمون ـ كما ورد على لسان محمد بن عبد الوهاب ـ أنّ النبي «طارش» وأنّ عصا محمّد بن الوهاب أفضل منه(1)ـ

(1)
انظر: زيني دحلان، الدرر السنية: ص42, الناشر: مكتبة ايشينق, استانبول ـ تركيا, 1396هـ. وكلمة (طارش) معروفة في الدول المجاورة لإيران من العرب، فكانوا يقولون إذا بعث لهم قريب رسالةً بيد شخص: جاءنا طارش برسالةٍ من فلان, فالطارش يشبه ساعي البريد, وظيفته البلاغ وتوصيل ما كلّف به وينتهي الأمر, فالنبي’ عند السلفية الوهابية كانت مهمته تبليغ الرسالة وقد انتهى كل شيء بوفاته, وباتت عصا محمّد بن عبد الوهاب أفضل منه؛ لأنها ينتفع بها في قتل الحية ونحوها !!! يقول العالم السنّي المعاصر السيد حسن بن علي السقّاف عن الرسول’: «بأنّه رسولٌ له المكانة السامية على جميع الخلق فضلاً عن البشر، وجميعهم تحت لوائه, آدم عليه السلام فمن دونه، وقد أعطي ذلك بفضل الله تعالى: {وأن الفضل بيد الله يؤتيه من يشاء} فمن قال: إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم عبارة عن حامل رسالة كساعي بريد أو طارش بلغة قوم، فقد ارتد وخرج من الإسلام وتزندق؛ لأنه استهان واستخف بالرسول الأعظم صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم، قال تعالى: {فالذين آمنوا وعزّروه ونصروه واتبعوا النور الذي أنزل معه أولئك هم المفلحون} ومعنى عزروه: عظموه ووقّروه ». السقاف، القول العطر في نبوة سيدنا الخضر: ص29, هامش 8، الناشر: دار الإمام النووي, عمّان ـ الأردن, ط1ـ 1413هـ.​

Salam brother
I gave "my" evidences how Shafa'a is personal (direct"face to face) ,not indirect.
This is where on disagreement.


I do believe Allah is order us to call Him directly without "mediator", from this life or nor barzakh.

Allah knows best.

 

[mojtaba]

Salam

1- Shafa'a is personal (face to face) , my evidence that it's never happened in that way you believe. (both living in earth life).

2-Allah never mentionned in Quran about someone made Shafa'a with person living in barzakh.

3-My other evidence Allah never ask us to call him indirectly (by mediator), He order us to call him personally.

Salam.

1.So what was the Shafa'ah of Prophet Joseph?
And what is the Shafa'ah of Angels as honoured servants of God for others? In both of them there were not any face to face contact, exept that you mean by 'face to face' a thing that I do not understand.

2. If a thing that has not beed mentioned in Quran is in Sahih Sunnah, it is certainly a part of Islam. Show me in Quran that the Salat Al-Fajr is 2 Rak'ah. Indeed, it isn't in Quran, but is in Sahih Sunnah.
Sahih Sunnah proves such Shafa'ah (i.e., doing Shafa'ah by those who are in Barzakh world) and Quran does not reject it. So, you can not reject it.

3. Brother, why do you repeat this incorrect saying frequently?!
This is Quran which says that the sons of Prophet Jacob called Allah through their father. Chapter 12: They said, "O our father, ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners." (97) He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (98)

Only Allah forgives the sins. So, the sons of Prophet Jacob called him (Ya Abana: O our father) and through calling him, they called Allah indirectly. Indeed they called Allah through Prophet Jacob. Because after that they called Prophet Jacob and made him as their mediator towards Allah, Prophet Jacob said: 'I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful' [12:98]. So, they called Allah indirectly by calling their father [O our father!...].

Or please say that when Prophet Solomon called the member of elite, did he called Allah directly or indirectly? Without a doubt, he called Allah indirectly. Because he first said: ‘Ya Ayyohal Mala'o [O members of the elite!] Which of you will bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?’ 27:38.
And when Asif did what he asked, Prophet Solomon said that he had indeed asked it from Allah through calling the member of the elite, because it was indeed the garce of Allah (So when he saw it set near him, he said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord...27:40'). So, Prophet Solomon called Allah indirectly through others.

Your problem is this that you think that Allah says in Quran that we must call him only directly. While Quran does not say this at all. Quran says that we must call only Him, but it does not say it should be only directly. According to different verses which I mentioned in different posts of mine in this thread, Allah has let us call him indirectly.

Indeed, calling Allah indirectly is calling Him through a Wasilah (الوسيلة). Allah says in chapter 17:
Say, ‘Invoke those whom you [O polytheists] claim [to be gods] besides Him. They have no power to remove your distress, nor to bring about any change [in your state]. (56) They [themselves] are the ones who supplicate, seeking a means of access [الوسيلة] to their Lord, whoever is nearer [to Him], expecting His mercy and fearing His punishment.’ Indeed your Lord’s punishment is a thing to beware of.

Calling Allah through the means of access to Him is a Quranic teaching. As you know, Imam Ali fought against Khawarij [who had the beliefs and doings like ISIS and other Takfiri groups] and killed them. It is narrated from Aisha (ra) that Prophet (sawaws) said: The being who is the nearest means of the access to Allah will kill Khawarij (عن عائشة: أنها سئلت ما سمعت النبى - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يقول فى الخوارج قالت سمعته يقول هم شر الخلق والخليقة يقتلهم خير الخلق والخليقة وأقربهم من الله وسيلة). See Jami' al-Ahadith by Imam Soyooti. Lady Fatima (as) said: ونحن وسيلته في خلقه: We are the means of access to Allah among His creatures (Sunni source: Sharh Nahjul Balaqa by Ibn Abil Hadid). See Sharh Nahjul Balaqa by Ibn Abil Hadid in the website of King Saud University.

Shafaa'a (mediation) as commun understanding it is about forgiveness, face to face,(in personal).

If you mean it's about ask the help for life business, like being healthy or victory in war,being marry or get kids....etc definitly which I disagree with, there is no mediation in these life issues between Allah and us.

So please say me that what was the Shafa'ah of Prophet Joseph for healing of blindness of his father?
What was the Tawassol of Prophet Solomon to the members of elite for bringing the throne of queen of Sheba?
What was the Shafa'ah of Moses for Pharaoh and his group for removing of disasters?

Brother, why you do not see these verses?

 

[mojtaba]

Salam brother
I gave "my" evidences how Shafa'a is personal (direct"face to face) ,not indirect.
This is where on disagreement.


I do believe Allah is order us to call Him directly without "mediator", from this life or nor barzakh.

Allah knows best.

Dear brother, I have not seen any evidenses in your posts.

 

[Godobeyer]

Salam.

1.So what was the Shafa'ah of Prophet Joseph?
And what is the Shafa'ah of Angels as honoured servants of God for others? In both of them there were not any face to face contact, exept that you mean by 'face to face' a thing that I do not understand.

2. If a thing that has not beed mentioned in Quran is in Sahih Sunnah, it is certainly a part of Islam. Show me in Quran that the Salat Al-Fajr is 2 Rak'ah. Indeed, it isn't in Quran, but is in Sahih Sunnah.
Sahih Sunnah proves such Shafa'ah (i.e., doing Shafa'ah by those who are in Barzakh world) and Quran does not reject it. So, you can not reject it.

3. Brother, why do you repeat this incorrect saying frequently?!
This is Quran which says that the sons of Prophet Jacob called Allah through their father. Chapter 12: They said, "O our father, ask for us forgiveness of our sins; indeed, we have been sinners." (97) He said, "I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." (98)

Only Allah forgives the sins. So, the sons of Prophet Jacob called him (Ya Abana: O our father) and through calling him, they called Allah indirectly. Indeed they called Allah through Prophet Jacob. Because after that they called Prophet Jacob and made him as their mediator towards Allah, Prophet Jacob said: 'I will ask forgiveness for you from my Lord. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful' [12:98]. So, they called Allah indirectly by calling their father [O our father!...].

Or please say that when Prophet Solomon called the member of elite, did he called Allah directly or indirectly? Without a doubt, he called Allah indirectly. Because he first said: ‘Ya Ayyohal Mala'o [O members of the elite!] Which of you will bring me her throne before they come to me in submission?’ 27:38.
And when Asif did what he asked, Prophet Solomon said that he had indeed asked it from Allah through calling the member of the elite, because it was indeed the garce of Allah (So when he saw it set near him, he said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord...27:40'). So, Prophet Solomon called Allah indirectly through others.

Your problem is this that you think that Allah says in Quran that we must call him only directly. While Quran does not say this at all. Quran says that we must call only Him, but it does not say it should be only directly. According to different verses which I mentioned in different posts of mine in this thread, Allah has let us call him indirectly.

Indeed, calling Allah indirectly is calling Him through a Wasilah (الوسيلة). Allah says in chapter 17:
Say, ‘Invoke those whom you [O polytheists] claim [to be gods] besides Him. They have no power to remove your distress, nor to bring about any change [in your state]. (56) They [themselves] are the ones who supplicate, seeking a means of access [الوسيلة] to their Lord, whoever is nearer [to Him], expecting His mercy and fearing His punishment.’ Indeed your Lord’s punishment is a thing to beware of.

Calling Allah through the means of access to Him is a Quranic teaching. As you know, Imam Ali fought against Khawarij [who had the beliefs and doings like ISIS and other Takfiri groups] and killed them. It is narrated from Aisha (ra) that Prophet (sawaws) said: The being who is the nearest means of the access to Allah will kill Khawarij (عن عائشة: أنها سئلت ما سمعت النبى - صلى الله عليه وسلم - يقول فى الخوارج قالت سمعته يقول هم شر الخلق والخليقة يقتلهم خير الخلق والخليقة وأقربهم من الله وسيلة). See Jami' al-Ahadith by Imam Soyooti. Lady Fatima (as) said: ونحن وسيلته في خلقه: We are the means of access to Allah among His creatures (Sunni source: Sharh Nahjul Balaqa by Ibn Abil Hadid). See Sharh Nahjul Balaqa by Ibn Abil Hadid in the website of King Saud University.


So please say me that what was the Shafa'ah of Prophet Joseph for healing of blindness of his father?
What was the Tawassol of Prophet Solomon to the members of elite for bringing the throne of queen of Sheba?
What was the Shafa'ah of Moses for Pharaoh and his group for removing of disasters?

Brother, why you do not see these verses?

Salam brother.

I do under your point.

I meant by Shafaa personal during his living time.(not in barzakh).

It's could be angels made Shafaa to someone for forgiveness (not healing or become wealthy or victory ..etc).

I am talking about requesting"Shafaa" to Allah through other person in Barzakh.for healing or victory !


Ya Ayyohal Mala'o [O members of the elite!]; you seems misunderstood this verse, this call from Solomon (pbuh) was not to Allah,it's was for his people to ask them who could bring the the throne ,it's had not thing to do with indirect or direct Shafa'a to Allah.

I don't know how you understand that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) asked Allah indirectly !
Wasilah (الوسيلة) is the top place in Paradise , Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) asked for it directly.

 

[Godobeyer]

Dear brother, I have not seen any evidenses in your posts.

Maybe you did not notice that

I said Allah did ask us to call him personally (not through someone else).

Surah Ghafir [40:60]
And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.

Allah said call me,not call me through someone else.

Allah never ever gave an exemple of request(Shafa'a) through someone in other life (barzakh) !

I forget to mention to Moses(pbuh),it's also ordinare/personal request to Pharaoh not to Allah !!

So you meant that Moses(pbuh) asked Allah through Pharaoh ! sorry this is insane if you understood it like that

 

[Ya Ali]

Muslims and shia polytheists disagree on this.

Ali(r.a) gave Abu Bakr(r.a) bayyah. That alone destroys the shirki cult

Ali a.s. never gave bayah to Abu Bakr.

From Sunni sources:

When they took out Ali pbuh they carried him to Abi Bakr and presented him for allegiance, so he answered them with all firmness and persistence:"I am more worthy for this affair than you. I will not pledge allegiance to you and you are the first to pay allegiance to me." So they said: "We will strike your neck!" So he said pbuh:"So then you will kill a servant of Allah and a brother of His Messenger." So Omar said:"As for being a servant of Allah yes, as for a brother of His Messenger no! And Abu Bakr is quiet! And then Omar said to Abi Bakr: Don't you want to command him by your command? So the Khaleefa said: I don't force him into a thing, as long as Fatima is near him! So Ali went to the grave of the Messenger of Allah s.a.w, shouting and crying" O son of my mother, the folk have made me vulnerable and they almost killed me" Sharh Manhaj v.2:56,6:11, Imama and Syaasa:12-12. Tareekh AlYaqoobi-Mukhtasaran-2:126, AlFitooh Ibn Aatham 1:13, Dar AlKutob AlIlmya print 1 1406 A.H


حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ , عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ , قَالَ : قَالَ الزُّهْرِيُّ ، وَأَخْبَرَنِي عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ عُتْبَةَ , أَنَّ عَائِشَةَ أَخْبَرَتْهُ , قَالَتْ : " أَوَّلُ مَا اشْتَكَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِي بَيْتِ مَيْمُونَةَ , فَاسْتَأْذَنَ أَزْوَاجَهُ أَنْ يُمَرَّضَ فِي بَيْتِهَا , فَأَذِنَّ لَهُ , قالت : فَخَرَجَ وَيَدٌ لَهُ عَلَى الْفَضْلِ بْنِ عَبَّاسٍ , وَيَدٌ لَهُ عَلَى رَجُلٍ آخَرَ , وَهُوَ يَخُطُّ بِرِجْلَيْهِ فِي الْأَرْضِ , قَالَ عُبَيْدُ اللَّهِ فَحَدَّثْتُ بِهِ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ , فَقَالَ : أَتَدْرُونَ مَنْ الرَّجُلُ الْآخَرُ الَّذِي لَمْ تُسَمِّ عَائِشَةُ ؟ هُوَ عَلِيٌّ , وَلَكِنَّ عَائِشَةَ لَا تَطِيبُ لَهُ نَفْسًا
روى الامام احمد في مسنده الجزء 6 صفحة 228

 

[Ya Ali]

Thank you.

But what is in Sunni books that the name of father of Mahdi is Abdullah (اسمه اسمي واسم أبيه اسم أبي: the name of Mahdi is like my name and the name of his father is like the name of my father(i.e. Abdullah)) is a fake Hadith about which Sunni eminent Imams of Hadith like Ibn Habban, Soyooti, Ibn Jowzi, Az-Zahabi have said that is a fake tradition.

In addition, the Hadith which you have narrated from Shi'i books is not an authentic one and its route of the narrators is weak and one of the narrators in the route is mentioned in Rijal books as liar and who used to make fake traditions.

Waffaqakallah!

Asalamu Alaykum.

From Fathel Ibn Shathan from Ismael son of Ayash from Al Amash from Abi Wa'el from Huthayfa, he said: "I heard the Messenger of Allah s.a.w.w. and him mentioning the Mahdi so he said: "He will be given allegiance between the Rukn and Maqam, his name is Ahmed, Abdullah and Mahdi. These are his three names." - Gaibat al Toosi page 454.

The same three names given to the son of Imam al-Mahdi a.s. in the Prophet's Will. So this is not the 12th Imam a.s. Imam Mohammed al-Mahdi ibn al-Hassan al-Askari a.s. but his son Ahmed who is also a Mahdi, who is born in End times.

Number of narrations from the Prophet s.a.w.w saying that the one who will be given allegiance between the Rukn and Maqam is Ahmed by name, the man with three names.
And it has a full connected chain, narrators from the companion Huthayfa son of AlYamani who lived during some time of the Jahilya and then after 1 A.H he heard,saw and reports from the Prophet s.a.w.w and also Abu Wael reports from Huthayfa,for he lived during the times of the Prophet s.a.w. and he is a Taba'i but hasn't seen him and he turned away from the army of Muawya l.a. and joined Ali a.s. in Sifeen.Abu Wael reported the hadeeth which was mentioned in the Sunni books concerning the Prophet s.a.w.w receiving sand from Karbala through Gabriel a.s. and AlAmash who reports from Abu Wa'el is a known narrator and is in that same chain of the hadeeth about Hussain a.s. and Gabriel a.s. taking the sand from a city in Iraq and gave it to the Prophet s.a.w.w. And the one who reports from AlAmash is Ismael son of Ayash(the narrator in the chain of the hadeeth about the Mahdi's name is Ahmed) who in Levant(Sham)once approached people slandering Ali a.s. so he stopped them and made the people cut off the slandering against Ali a.s. and he has hadeeths about loving Hasan and Hussain and Ali son of Abi Taleb a.s. and the one who reports from Ismael son of Ayash is AlFathel Ibn Shathan who is one of the greatest working companions of the Imams who wrote 180 books defending the Shia creed. And so this hadeeth about Ahmed, Abdullah, AlMahdi has been then mentioned in the book Gaibat AlToosi that we have today and the names of the narrators and their descriptions we have mentioned just now. Its under the chapter of the signs before the emergence,appearance of Imam AlMahdi a.s.

And Sheikh AlToosi says that when he reports from Fathel Ibn Shathan, Sheikh AlMufeed(Abu Abdullah), Ahmad son of Abdoon, Hussain son Ubaydallah AlGathaeri reported him this and Muhammad AlHasan AlAlawi reports from Muhammad son of Qutayba AlNayshaboori the student of Fathel Ibn Shathan and he(the student) reports from Fathel Ibn Shathan.(Istibsar v.4 p.342)

The Hadith of the Will of Rasulullah sawas is an authentic one.

The Will was first reported in Ghaibatul Tusi by Sheikh al-Tusi. Regarding the narrations he reported from the khaasa(shia narrations) Sheikh al-Tusi said:
"We have said: And what has lead to its authenticity, the Shia Imamya see it on the way of Tawaater(definite degree of surety)mentioned inordinate number of narrations and the way(Tareeqa) it has been authentic (Sahih) is present in the books of the Imamya, the texts from the Prince of the Believers (as) and there is [only] one way(Tareeqa)."
Sheikh al-Tusi(992-1067): Ghaybatul Tusi p.156-157

Mirza AlNoori AlTabrasi considers the chain of the Prophet's will to be Mutabar(i.e Saheeh):
"And AlToosi narrated with a Sanad(chain)that is Mutabar" v.2 p.72 Najm AlThaaqib

Sheikh Mirza Al Noori AlTabrasi who had vast knowledge of Ilm Al Rijal says"AlToosi narrated it(Prophet's will) with a chain that is Mutabar(authentic) from Imam Al Saadeq pbuh" Najm Al Thaqeb fi Ahwal Imam Al Huja Al Ga'eb v.2 p.71

 

[mojtaba]

Salam brother.

I do under your point.

I meant by Shafaa personal during his living time.(not in barzakh).

Salamun Alaykum.

Excuse me brother. I was so busy, so I couldn't continue our friendly discussion.

Brother, what is the difference between those who are alive in Barzakh and those who are alive in this world???

There is not any difference. Quran says that we can take the so pious servants of Allah as mediators and ask them to ask our needs from Allah. This need can be anything. As Quran talks about the 1.the Shafa'ah (i.e., intercession) of Prophet Joseph for healing of blindness of his father, 2.the Tawassol (i.e., seeking a means for occurrence of a unusual happening) of Prophet Solomon to the members of elite for bringing the throne of queen of Sheba form Sheba to Jerusalem during a many short time, 3.and the Shafa'ah of Moses for Pharaoh and his group for removing of disasters and Tawassol of Pharaoh and his group to Prophet Moses regarding this issue.

If we can do this with those pious servants who are alive in this world, why we can not do with those who are alive in Barzakh??? Allah says in Quran that without doubt, Prophet Muhammad and the faithful (we believe they are the 12 Successors of Prophet) certainly see our doings (See post 25 for this issue). So, if they are alive in Barzakh world, and also can see us, why we can not take them as mediators???
I see that Quran never rejects the intercession of those who are alive in Barzakh, instead it lets us do it.

It's could be angels made Shafaa to someone for forgiveness (not healing or become wealthy or victory ..etc).

The intercession of angles for victory in wars:

[Remember, O Muhammad] when you were saying to the faithful, ‘Is it not enough for you that your Lord should aid you with three thousand angels sent down?’ (124) Yes, if you are steadfast and Godwary, and should they [enemies in the war] come at you suddenly, your Lord will aid you with five thousand angels sent in [to the scene of battle]. (125)

According to these verses, angles are the mediators between us and Allah for the victory in the war and indeed, [3:126] victory comes only from Allah, the All-mighty, the All-wise.

So, angles can do intercession for forgiveness, victory, etc.

I am talking about requesting"Shafaa" to Allah through other person in Barzakh.for healing or victory !
Ya Ayyohal Mala'o [O members of the elite!]; you seems misunderstood this verse, this call from Solomon (pbuh) was not to Allah,it's was for his people to ask them who could bring the the throne ,it's had not thing to do with indirect or direct Shafa'a to Allah.

Please say me that why did not Prophet Solomon ask his amazing request from Allah?
Were the member of elite more powerful than Allah (Allah forbid), so that he asked his request from them, not from Allah, or he asked Allah indirectly through the member of elite? Prophet Solomon himself said that he asked Allah indirectly :'So when he [Solomon] saw it [the throne] set near him, he said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord... .
So, Prophet Solomon asked his request from Allah indirectly through the member of elite, and asking from Allah indirectly through the most pious servants of Him is lawful.

I don't know how you understand that prophet Muhammad (pbuh) asked Allah indirectly !
Wasilah (الوسيلة) is the top place in Paradise , Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) asked for it directly.

I did not say that verse says that Prophet Muhammad asked Allah indirectly. Please try to get the points of my sayings.
I said that seeking a means of access (الوسيلة) to Allah (swt) is a Quranic concept. Quran says that those polytheists who pray someones (i.e., angels, Jesus, etc.) as goddesses and ask them to benefit them or reject the evils from them, do not know that they themselves (i.e., angels, Jesus, etc.) seek a means of access to their Lord and can not benefit them or reject any evil from them besides Allah. So, asking Allah indirectly, i.e., by the means of access to him, e.g., Prophet Muhammad and his pure progeny, is a Quranic concept. Prophet Muhammad said that Imam Ali is the best of the means of access to Allah, and Lady Fatima said that they (i.e., Prophet and the pure ones of his progeny) are the means of access to Allah. This is what I said.
The term Wasila (الوسيلة) in that verse do not mean the highest status of the Paradise. See the verse again. Yes, Wasila has another phrasal meaning which is the highest status of the Paradise, but in that verse, the term Wasila means 'a means of access'.

Waffaqakallah!

 

[mojtaba]

Maybe you did not notice that

I said Allah did ask us to call him personally (not through someone else).
Surah Ghafir [40:60]
And your Lord says, "Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell [rendered] contemptible.

As I said frequently in this thread,

1.This verse is about those that worship others besides Allah (Indeed, those who disdain My worship will enter Hell). So, it is not about those who worship only Allah (Ta'ala Jaddoh).

2.This verse never says that we must ask Allah only directly. This verse just says that we must only ask Allah. But other verses which narrate indirect asking from Allah through others, prove that we can ask Allah indirectly.

Muslims (i.e., non-Wahhabi Sunnis and Shi'ites)[I do not mean Wahhabis are not Muslim] that ask Allah through His the most pious servants of Him (asking them to ask the requests from Allah), never worship them, and never ask their needs from them besides Allah Ta'ala. This verse is not about this issue. See the saying of Ash-Shukani, an eminent Sunni scholar here (وبهذا تعلم أنّ ما يورده المانعون من التوسّل بالأنبياء والصلحاء من نحو قوله تعالى....).

Allah said call me,not call me through someone else.

Please show me exactly what verse says this.

Also, why did the sons of Prophet Jacob called Allah through their father?(Yoosof:37)
Why did Allah order Prophet Muhammad to call his household for asking Allah?(Ali Imran:61)
And so on.

Allah never ever gave an exemple of request(Shafa'a) through someone in other life (barzakh) !

Allah says that Prophet Muhammad and the faithful see our doings (See post #25).
Allah says that who are in Barzakh world can wish for others that are in this world.(Ya-Sin:26)
Allah says that we can ask the pious servants of Him to ask Allah our needs (many verses mentioned in this thread by me).

I forget to mention to Moses(pbuh),it's also ordinare/personal request to Pharaoh not to Allah !!

So you meant that Moses(pbuh) asked Allah through Pharaoh ! sorry this is insane if you understood it like that

Brother, please read the vreses again. I think you have misunderstand them. According to those verses, Pharaoh and his group asked Moses to ask Allah the removing of disasters. I said this. I did not say Moses (a.s.) ask Allah through Pharaoh!

Chapter 7
Whenever a plague fell upon them, they would say, ‘O Moses [Ya Musa], invoke your Lord for us by the covenant He has made with you. If you remove the plague from us, we will certainly believe in you and let the Children of Israel go along with you.’(134) But when We had removed the plague from them until a term that they should have completed, behold, they broke their promise.(135)

May Allah bless you.

 

[Godobeyer]

Salamun Alaykum.

Excuse me brother. I was so busy, so I couldn't continue our friendly discussion.

Brother, what is the difference between those who are alive in Barzakh and those who are alive in this world???

There is not any difference. Quran says that we can take the so pious servants of Allah as mediators and ask them to ask our needs from Allah. This need can be anything. As Quran talks about the 1.the Shafa'ah (i.e., intercession) of Prophet Joseph for healing of blindness of his father, 2.the Tawassol (i.e., seeking a means for occurrence of a unusual happening) of Prophet Solomon to the members of elite for bringing the throne of queen of Sheba form Sheba to Jerusalem during a many short time, 3.and the Shafa'ah of Moses for Pharaoh and his group for removing of disasters and Tawassol of Pharaoh and his group to Prophet Moses regarding this issue.

If we can do this with those pious servants who are alive in this world, why we can not do with those who are alive in Barzakh??? Allah says in Quran that without doubt, Prophet Muhammad and the faithful (we believe they are the 12 Successors of Prophet) certainly see our doings (See post 25 for this issue). So, if they are alive in Barzakh world, and also can see us, why we can not take them as mediators???
I see that Quran never rejects the intercession of those who are alive in Barzakh, instead it lets us do it.


The intercession of angles for victory in wars:

[Remember, O Muhammad] when you were saying to the faithful, ‘Is it not enough for you that your Lord should aid you with three thousand angels sent down?’ (124) Yes, if you are steadfast and Godwary, and should they [enemies in the war] come at you suddenly, your Lord will aid you with five thousand angels sent in [to the scene of battle]. (125)

According to these verses, angles are the mediators between us and Allah for the victory in the war and indeed, [3:126] victory comes only from Allah, the All-mighty, the All-wise.

So, angles can do intercession for forgiveness, victory, etc.


Please say me that why did not Prophet Solomon ask his amazing request from Allah?
Were the member of elite more powerful than Allah (Allah forbid), so that he asked his request from them, not from Allah, or he asked Allah indirectly through the member of elite? Prophet Solomon himself said that he asked Allah indirectly :'So when he [Solomon] saw it [the throne] set near him, he said, ‘This is by the grace of my Lord... .
So, Prophet Solomon asked his request from Allah indirectly through the member of elite, and asking from Allah indirectly through the most pious servants of Him is lawful.


I did not say that verse says that Prophet Muhammad asked Allah indirectly. Please try to get the points of my sayings.
I said that seeking a means of access (الوسيلة) to Allah (swt) is a Quranic concept. Quran says that those polytheists who pray someones (i.e., angels, Jesus, etc.) as goddesses and ask them to benefit them or reject the evils from them, do not know that they themselves (i.e., angels, Jesus, etc.) seek a means of access to their Lord and can not benefit them or reject any evil from them besides Allah. So, asking Allah indirectly, i.e., by the means of access to him, e.g., Prophet Muhammad and his pure progeny, is a Quranic concept. Prophet Muhammad said that Imam Ali is the best of the means of access to Allah, and Lady Fatima said that they (i.e., Prophet and the pure ones of his progeny) are the means of access to Allah. This is what I said.
The term Wasila (الوسيلة) in that verse do not mean the highest status of the Paradise. See the verse again. Yes, Wasila has another phrasal meaning which is the highest status of the Paradise, but in that verse, the term Wasila means 'a means of access'.

Waffaqakallah!

Salam brother.

I almost forget the discussion lol
A as I said Allah asked us to call Him direclty,He never mentioned to ask Him with Shafaa. especially by someone died in this life(barzakh).

We asked the Wasila for prophet Muhammad(pbuh) not the inverse. as we pray for our death relatives.