Prophecy?

[Shantanu]

Keep it simple: "Some people believe in magic,"

Who is your favourite magician?

 

[Vinayaka]

To me it has been shown to be sound predictions. It is another way to know God exists and God's Wisdom should not be ignored.

Each person must decide this for themselves. As Biblical Scholars did come up with a date that correctly showed the Message of the Bab was foretold, that in itself shows there is Truth to be found in Prophecy.

Regards Tony

Sure, it's clear to me that the folks who believe in prophecy have a few examples of someone speaking of it it occurring, but that certainly isn't proof. It's conjecture, and that's fine. I like to predict who will win the next sporting event too. And occasionally I'm right. But it's a huge jump to go back and say I knew it all along.

 

[Vinayaka]

Prophets and the one who gives them this power - God, both are products of human imagination. But I think answers from Brickjectivity and Sooda are good. Yes, If psychologists could help a person, why not a prophet trained in a school. The shamans and witch doctors, also belong to this group having practiced under masters for a long duration of time as apprentices before starting on their own. So what if one was supposed to give gifts to these "theyyars", don't we pay fee to a psychologist?

Seeking help from the wise is a good idea. But there is wisdom all over.

 

[Vinayaka]

I see that was Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah shows how all Faiths are from One God.

What else will bind our hearts?

Although I don't believe in Kalki, as that's outside my version of Hinduism, from the stories I read, it is a truly magical time, happening practically immediately, so powerful it is. There is no way that any one of the thousands of claimants matches the description of Kalki. That's one vivid imagination.

 

[sooda]

Seeking help from the wise is a good idea. But there is wisdom all over.

Here's the Jewish definition of prophet.

Many people today think of a prophet as any person who sees the future. While the gift of prophecy certainly includes the ability to see the future, a prophet is far more than just a person with that ability.

A prophet is basically a spokesman for G-d, a person chosen by G-d to speak to people on G-d's behalf and convey a message or teaching. Prophets were role models of holiness, scholarship and closeness to G-d. They set the standards for the entire community.

The Hebrew word for a prophet, navi (Nun-Beit-Yod-Alef) comes from the term niv sefatayim meaning "fruit of the lips," which emphasizes the prophet's role as a speaker.

The Talmud teaches that there were hundreds of thousands of prophets: twice as many as the number of people who left Egypt, which was 600,000.

But most of the prophets conveyed messages that were intended solely for their own generation and were not reported in scripture. Scripture identifies only 55 prophets of Israel.

continued

Judaism 101: Prophets and Prophecy

 

[Audie]

Who is your favourite magician?

Try later in the day, you are not awake enough to be ckever.

Me either. I should have said "Many believe in magic."

Fewer words

 

[loverofhumanity]

In Hinduism, it is said that 'whenever evil predominates and virtue subsides, God will manifest Himself to bring dharma into this world: that shows that Kalki avatar will again appear or has already appeared to bring dharma upon mankind regardless of Biblical prophecies.

Yes that’s what I believe.

 

[Shantanu]

Yes that’s what I believe.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes that’s what I believe.

No you don't. Hindus who believe in Kalki believe He/She/It is yet to come. You believe Kalki has already arrived. Major major difference.

Edited ... That's like the difference between saying that man will some day send a manned spacecraft to Mars, versus saying that man has already landed on Mars.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No you don't. Hindus who believe in Kalki believe He/She/It is yet to come. You believe Kalki has already arrived. Major major difference.

Edited ... That's like the difference between saying that man will some day send a manned spacecraft to Mars, versus saying that man has already landed on Mars.

Yes there is a major difference in that we believe Kalki has already arrived but I do believe in the prophecy where Krishna says that He returns from age to age as recorded in the Bhagavad-Gita.

 

[sealchan]

I read topics about prophecy, and it seems that for some, it's just such a basic tenet ... so basic it's presented as fact.

Personally, I don't believe in prophecy, the concept. The idea that someone can predict the future with any accuracy at all just seems odd to me. Sure, some stuff is obvious. We're all going to die. The sun will come up tomorrow. The weather changes.

But things like end time, the next coming of a prophet, avatar, all that, well, it seems a bit of a stretch. And often it seems folks, wishing to believe such a thing, go back and alter the wording, or scripture, using creative license, just to make it look like somebody somewhere made an accurate prediction. Then there are the arguments about it, seemingly endless arguments. I see little use in that too. Whatever will be will be.

I loved a teen novel called Dragonwings. In it a Chinese character often used the phrase ... "Maybe. Maybe not." That seems far more realistic to me. I'm happy with whatever future happens on this planet, and being a Hindu, this soul (certainly not this ego/personality) will likely see it.

If someone could accurately predict the future, why not go to the race track, and make yourself a bundle, then put it to charity? (just an example, but there would be some positive uses.)

So ... why do you believe in prophecy, as a concept? Or not, like me?

There are some great works of science fiction which treat of prophecy...Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and the Foundation series come to mind. The basic motif is prophecy comes about through an access to a higher level of knowledge. In Star Trek that comes from God-like aliens. In the Foundation series it arises from sophisticated scientific theory.

In the stories about our past, prophecy indicates contact with God or a God. In those stories the miracle of knowledge of the future is usually about something specific and significant and the truth of said prophecy may defy heavy odds against it.

At this point in our cultural evolution I dont see the direct personified deity source of higher knowledge as a convincing fiction given the more believable alternatives. Even the chaos mathematician in Jurrasic Park provides a better example.

I think that God has always been a voice of the promise of a higher knowledge. That metaphor works for us because we all can understand how greater knowledge gives us greater control over the outcomes in our life.. the anxiety of uncertainty about the future is something which will accept of as much soothing as we can muster.

I've often thought of the story of Noah in this light. Noah responds to that higher knowledge with an effort to achieve a great work of technology. Then when the natural catastrophe comes, he is able to survive. Today's Noah works on space colonization projects...

 

[sealchan]

I used to believe that prophets were people who predicted the future in order to prove that they were legitimately connected to the divine. Now I understand that to be a misunderstanding that is merely convenient for con artists and booksellers.

A prophet is someone who is moved very deeply by moral issues at times when most people don't notice those issues. If, for example, you have a society that regularly mistreats children, a prophet is someone who notices that and cannot accept it; and they will speak out against it to the point of getting themselves into lots of trouble. They are inconsolably moved and grieved by some wrongs. They are driven and will make waves and annoy people. They have difficulty accepting evils in society, somewhat like whistle blowers -- like our man Snowden from the USA. He just wouldn't shut up about something that was wrong even though everybody else was playing along.

I was thinking of Sinead O'Connor...

 

[sealchan]

I do not believe in prophecy.
however there are often Trends, actions and other data that suggest a probable or possible outcome.
Some people are more able to interpret these things than others.
Many religions including Christianity use prophecy as proof of scripture. and what God will do. or has done.
This is no better than believing that pure chance is a proof of anything.

Because I or anyone else predicts an outcome before it happens, does not make us a prophet or mean that we have a direct link to God, any more than it did people in ancient times.
Prophecy is snake oil and no different to the work of a con artist.

I keep thinking of a systemic thinker as one who could achieve a prophets insight. Understanding how the parts of a complex, dynamic system work can lead one to predict the future with inevitability hard to fathom.

I nominate Al Gore as a prophet in this regard. Recent increased snowstorms create an "apparent" contradiction which will be shown, in the end, to be all part of the truth of the impact of global warming. A well earned Nobel Peace prize which we will see further proved in our near future.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes there is a major difference in that we believe Kalki has already arrived but I do believe in the prophecy where Krishna says that He returns from age to age as recorded in the Bhagavad-Gita.

Thanks for admitting this. Shows you're very different from that version of Hinduism.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It may be Baha'u'llah is that source for our age. I beleive that to be the Truth.

You believe in Bahaullah, Muslims believe in Mohammad, Ahmadiyyas believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, Christians believe in Jesus, LDS believe in Joseph Smith, Peoples Temple of the Disciples of Christ believed in Jim Jones, Branch Davidians believed in David Koresh, Aum Shinrikyo believed in Shoko Asahara, Rapture believed in William Miller, Heaven's Gate people believe in Marshall Applewhite, Movement for the Restoration of Ten Commandments of God believed in Credonia Mwerinde, Joseph Kibweteere and Bee Tait and so on. But none has given even a slightest evidence about why anyone should believe in them.

Yes there is a major difference in that we believe Kalki has already arrived but I do believe in the prophecy where Krishna says that He returns from age to age as recorded in the Bhagavad-Gita.

Yeah, we know Bahais are smart people, ready to accept whatever they think can increase their numbers. So, Bahaullah was Kalki?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I read topics about prophecy, and it seems that for some, it's just such a basic tenet ... so basic it's presented as fact.

Personally, I don't believe in prophecy, the concept. The idea that someone can predict the future with any accuracy at all just seems odd to me. Sure, some stuff is obvious. We're all going to die. The sun will come up tomorrow. The weather changes.

But things like end time, the next coming of a prophet, avatar, all that, well, it seems a bit of a stretch. And often it seems folks, wishing to believe such a thing, go back and alter the wording, or scripture, using creative license, just to make it look like somebody somewhere made an accurate prediction. Then there are the arguments about it, seemingly endless arguments. I see little use in that too. Whatever will be will be.

I loved a teen novel called Dragonwings. In it a Chinese character often used the phrase ... "Maybe. Maybe not." That seems far more realistic to me. I'm happy with whatever future happens on this planet, and being a Hindu, this soul (certainly not this ego/personality) will likely see it.

If someone could accurately predict the future, why not go to the race track, and make yourself a bundle, then put it to charity? (just an example, but there would be some positive uses.)

So ... why do you believe in prophecy, as a concept? Or not, like me?

Personally I've yet to hear a single claimed 'prophecy' that wasn't either so vague it could be interpreted to mean virtually anything or was no different than an accurate prediction.

 

[Etritonakin]

I read topics about prophecy, and it seems that for some, it's just such a basic tenet ... so basic it's presented as fact.

Personally, I don't believe in prophecy, the concept. The idea that someone can predict the future with any accuracy at all just seems odd to me. Sure, some stuff is obvious. We're all going to die. The sun will come up tomorrow. The weather changes.

But things like end time, the next coming of a prophet, avatar, all that, well, it seems a bit of a stretch. And often it seems folks, wishing to believe such a thing, go back and alter the wording, or scripture, using creative license, just to make it look like somebody somewhere made an accurate prediction. Then there are the arguments about it, seemingly endless arguments. I see little use in that too. Whatever will be will be.

I loved a teen novel called Dragonwings. In it a Chinese character often used the phrase ... "Maybe. Maybe not." That seems far more realistic to me. I'm happy with whatever future happens on this planet, and being a Hindu, this soul (certainly not this ego/personality) will likely see it.

If someone could accurately predict the future, why not go to the race track, and make yourself a bundle, then put it to charity? (just an example, but there would be some positive uses.)

So ... why do you believe in prophecy, as a concept? Or not, like me?

That which occurs is inevitable and unchangeable until the existence/development of conscious decision. Things may seem random on a small scale, but on an all-inclusive scale nothing could have been different beforehand.

Apparently, therefore, the existence/development of conscious decision was inevitable -which is then able to alter the otherwise-inevitable course.
We see this to be true on our level -we may choose to act or not act -and we are dealing with the same stuff which has always existed, but are subject to it based on our position within it. Each of our individual minds is only able to cause so much change -but this can increase by position, knowledge, ability to interface, etc.

If the all-inclusive had/developed conscious decision, it would not be likewise subject -having a "most high" position and being the sum of all things -able to affect all things based on the nature of what could then be called "itself".

Such could supersede the will of all others -to literally predetermine and create a future -just as we are able to do on a smaller scale (depending upon position, knowledge, ability to interface, etc.)

Technically, we all "prophesy" and create the future every day -but we are not "the most high" -so we cannot do so on that scale.

We (humanity as a whole) actually have more power to understand what will happen -and even what individuals will or will not do -than many realize -though we are limited.
We can increasingly predict weather, earthquakes, movements of celestial bodies, etc. -and are learning how the mind works to the point that conscious decision may become the only unknown (though we often do not use this power for good -and it is often used to cause people to choose according to the will of another).

Biblical prophecy is not only God knowing what will be based on knowledge of his creation (including ourselves), but declaring what will be by causing it to happen -from the beginning and along the way -including superseding our wills to bring about the end determined from the beginning.
(Which... Fortunately... Will benefit all. As for why God would necessarily be perfect... I would imagine it was simply absolutely necessary, as God would not have initially had the buffers in place which keep evil from affecting us immediately. All would affect God personally and immediately -new beings would require time to realize they should not do certain things within a complex creation)

 

[Vinayaka]

Personally I've yet to hear a single claimed 'prophecy' that wasn't either so vague it could be interpreted to mean virtually anything or was no different than an accurate prediction.

Yes me too. Vagueness is used maybe just so it can't be disproved easily. The examples given so far in this thread have all been incredibly vague. I mean, they're using prophecies for people who haven't even been proven to exist, in some cases.

The amateur psychologist in me ponders why. In some ways, it's harmless, but in others it's harmful. The 'end of the world' prophecies are particularly harmful. People sell their houses to prepare. Others have been known to commit suicide when it didn't happen. That's pretty scary, from a human perspective. How many of those have come and gone without so much as an earthquake?

 

[Etritonakin]

Personally I've yet to hear a single claimed 'prophecy' that wasn't either so vague it could be interpreted to mean virtually anything or was no different than an accurate prediction.

It requires an in-depth study with a truly open mind, but the book of Daniel is extremely detailed and perfectly accurate (though not all prophecies are completed yet). The Kings of the north and south, for example, being essentially European (north) and Islamic (south) powers over time. (referenced from Jerusalem)

The present king of the south is now beginning to push at the present king of the north (terrorism, etc.) -and the present King of the north will soon come against him like a whirlwind -continuing on into the holy land.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

It is different looking backward in history -but if you study it now and see it happen you will likely be more convinced.

It only seems like it could be applied to anything unless you read completely, in context, etc... And can be read incorrectly due to the same things...

Judah (house of) returning to the holy land and having military success was also prophesied -as is what will continue to happen there.... including the soon-to-happen sustained attack against Israel by its neighbors (and Judah fighting at Jersalem) -followed by European and Communist (Kings of the East) powers (and allies).

2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Will try to add more about what will soon happen later

 

[sooda]

It requires an in-depth study with a truly open mind, but the book of Daniel is extremely detailed and perfectly accurate (though not all prophecies are complete). The Kings of the north and south, for example, being essentially European (north) and Islamic (south) powers over time.

The present king of the south is now beginning to push at the present king of the north (terrorism, etc.) -and the present King of the north will soon come against him like a whirlwind -continuing on into the holy land.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

It is different looking backward in history -but if you study it now and see it happen you will likely be more convinced.

It only seems like it could be applied to anything unless you read completely, in context, etc... And can be read incorrectly due to the same things...

Judah (house of) returning to the holy land and having military success was also prophesied -as is what will continue to happen there.... including the soon-to-happen sustained attack against Israel by its neighbors (and Judah fighting at Jersalem) -followed by European and Communist (Kings of the East) powers (and allies).

2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.

6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Daniel live in 165 BC and wrote about the past in Nebuchadnezzar's court in Babylon 400 years earlier. He also wrote about the Abomination of Desolation in the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and the Maccabean Revolt.

He wrote NOTHING about Europe or the modern age and was NOT considered a prophet.

Have you been following Hal Lindsey?