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Proof Jesus Wasn't God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Islam, Dec 8, 2006.

  1. Islam

    Islam Member

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    I dont get this. Why do you worship him? And why do you say he's God's literal son? Their isnt even one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says "I am God" or "worship me". It doesnt exist. So why eowrship him??

    How is he God when he says:

    "I can of mine own self do NOTHING . . ." JOHN 5:30


    HE HAD NO KNOWLEDGE OF THE HEREAFTER :

    "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, NEITHER THE SON, but the Father " MARK 13:32


    HE WAS IGNORANT OF THE SEASONS :


    'And seeing a fig tree afar of having leaves, he came if happily he might find any thing there on. and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, FOR THE TIME OF FIGS WAS NOT YET." MARK 11:13


    IMAGINE A "GOD" BEING TEMPTED by THE DEVIL:

    "Where he (Jesus) stayed forty days, being tempted by Satan" MARK 1:13


    God being tempted by the devil? Please, no.

    HE DOESN'T EVEN CONSIDER HIMSELF GOOD:

    So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. Mark 10:18


    Please, stop worshiping someone who doesnt even consider himself good.


    And why do you consider him the literal son of God? Where the Bible ascribes many other sons to God, but you say they are metaphorical?


    You see what Christians have to stop doing is jumping to conclusions. When jesus says the "father" they say its literal. When Someone else says in the bible "the father" they say its metaphorical.


    The Bible ascribes sons by the tons to God. (a) 'Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD." LUKE 3:38 (b) "That the SONS OF GOD saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took wives of all which they chose. ". . when the SONS OF GOD came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." GENESIS 6:2 and 4 (c) " . . Thus- saith the Lord, Israel is MY SON even my FIRSTBORN." EXODUS 4:22 (d) " . . and Ephraim is my FIRSTBORN," JEREMIAH 31:9 (e) " . . Thou (o David) ART MY SON; this day have I (God) BEGOTTEN thee. " PSALMS 2:7 (TONS A ton is 2000 lbs weight, that is about a thousand kilograms.) ("FIRST BORN:" How can there be two "firstborns"?) ("BEGOTTEN" How can God beget David at the age of forty? "This day'?)
    (f) "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the SONS OF GOD. ' ROMANS 8:14



    So He isnt God and isnt the son of God!
     
  2. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    You've proved nothing. You've refuted a certain interpretation.

    Try again.
     
  3. Hema

    Hema Sweet n Spicy

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    I'm not a Christian neither am I Muslim, I am Hindu which means that I see all paths as leading to God. You say Jesus is not the son God, so who put him on earth? We are all sons and daughters of God. To me, it sounds like Jesus was being humble when he said that do nothing by himself. None of us can do anything by ourselves. It is God who gives us the ability to do everything.
     
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  4. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Not this again !:cover:

    Have a look at this site:- http://www.basicchristian.org/biblicalproof.html
    This is just a tiny portion of the site; read that through, and then try again, if you so wish.

    In many, many places the Bible references, referrers to and calls Jesus, God, here are just a few!



    1st Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.​

    2nd Corinthians 5:19 To whit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself​

    Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son (Jesus) He (Father) saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy Kingdom.​

    Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and His Father; to Him be Glory and Dominion forever and ever. Amen.​

    Colossians 1:14-15 In whom (Jesus) we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn {Inheritor} of every creature:​

    Colossians 2:9-10 For in Him (Jesus) dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:​

    1st Thessalonians 5:18 In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.​

    Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​
     
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  5. brownnsugar

    brownnsugar New Member

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    Firstly, Satan tempted God in the Old Testament so why can’t he tempt God in the New Testament? Secondly what other person in the Bible has four different books dedicated completely to them (not including the books of scripture dedicated to Jesus that are not in the Bible)? I Mark 10:18 Jesus was speaking in a parable. Who else was fathered by the Holy Spirit? The name Jesus means God saves. Matthew 28:19 says, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost”. And in many passages, God himself said these words in reference to Jesus and never anyone else, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased" (Matthew 3:17, Matthew 17:5, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22, 2 Peter 1:17). And lastly who are you to say that He is not God? Maybe you are the one jumping to conclusions.
     
  6. writer

    writer Active Member

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    I dont get this. Why do you worship him?
    cuz i got Him

    And why do you say he's God's literal son?
    What do u mean by "literal son," since it's u, not anyone else i can see, who "say" that?

    Their isnt even one single verse in the Bible where Jesus says "I am God" or "worship me". It doesnt exist. So why eowrship him??
    Believe...that the Father's in Me and I'm in the Father
    John 10:38.
    Before Abraham came into being, I am. So they picked up stones to throw at Him
    8:58.
    Unless you believe that I am, you'll die in your sins
    8:24.
    Moses said to God, If I come to the children of Israel and say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they say to me, What's His name? What shall I say to them? And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM. And He said, So shall you say to the children of Israel, I AM has sent me to you
    Exodus 3:13-14.
    Jesus answered them, I've shown you many good works from My Father; for which of these works are you stoning Me? The Jews answered Him, We're not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy and because You, being a man, are making Yourself God
    Jn 10:32-33.
    Tell us if You're the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said to him, You've said rightly. Nevertheless I say to you, From now on you'll see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest tore his garments, saying, He's blasphemed! You've heard the blasphemy. What do you think? And they answered and said, He's worthy of death. Then they spat in His face
    Matthew 26:63-67.
    Jesus answered them, My Father's working until now, and I also am working. Because of this therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath but also called God His own Father, making Himself equal with God
    John 5:17-18.
    He said to Thomas, Bring your finger here and see My hands, and bring your hand and put it into My side; and don't be unbelieving, but believing. Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Because you've seen Me, you've believed. Blessed are those who haven't seen and have believed
    20:27-28
     
  7. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

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    How easily would you believe a person who says : "I am God, worship me."

    But, what if you observed their life and listened to their words and came to that conclusion yourself?
     
  8. FatMan

    FatMan Well-Known Member

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    An even more basic question should be asked - -

    Why do you care who worships Jesus? It shouldn't affect your beliefs one bit. Frankly, if I want to worship a hairy transvestite named Bob, I should be able to whether he/she is good, bad, or ugly - or all three, without questioning by you.
     
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  9. reyjamiei

    reyjamiei Member

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    Is there another interpretation besides Jesus being God or the son of God? If so, what is it?
     
  10. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Islam insists that Jesus was merely a pretty neat-o Prophet, and
    not God in the flesh. Dunno 'bout you, but I'd call that a "another interpretation".

    The simple fact of the matter is that Islam has a vested interest in debunking the notion that the Christ was not the "son of god" or "god in the flesh". If he was indeed such a marvelous being it tends to blow much of Islamic thinking right out of the water. It would, in effect mean that their beloved Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] was in error... as is Allah himself. IF, however, Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] was correct, then indeed many Christians have "got it wrong" and have committed the most heinous unforgivable crime against god. It's pretty straightforward.

    Given the fact that no Prophets before Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] can come back and say , "Um, sorry Prophet Muhammed [pbuh], you've got it wrong." and considering the fact the he claimed to be the be all and end all of all prophets, it does get one thinking about his motivation. Imho, such claims are incredibly self-serving as it is not like anyone can refute the claims. Add to this, that no one has any possibility of countering his words and you end up with a rather disturbing picture.

    IF and I stress IF, Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] was correct it is incumbent on any reasonable person to accept Islam. There is, in fact, no other logical choice to make. However, if Prophet Muhammed [pbuh] was NOT what he claimed then one really has to step back and wonder what his real intentions were.

    By their fruits you will know them (or whatever the phrase is, lol) echoes loudly in my mind. I look at the "fruits" of Islam and cannot say that I am especially impressed. To me, it all boils down to "who you believe". Frankly, I get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the Christ, that I simply do not get from Prophet Muhammed [pbuh].

    Heck and I'm not even a Christian. :slap:
     
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  11. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    If that's the case, then why did Jesus respond with "Thou shall not tempt The Lord thy God." , when HE was the one being tempted?? Oh, but of course Jesus isn't God :rolleyes:
     
  12. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

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    you can do better than that. taking a few scriptures out of context and even cutting off some of them to change the meaning, then making wierd assertions as to what the scriptures mean? Do you think we do not know our Bible?

    How many blind people did mohommad heal?

    How many dead people did mohommad bring back to life?

    How many lepers did mohommad cleanse?

    How many fig tree's did mohommad cause to wither?

    How many stormy seas did mohommad calm with his words?

    How many times did mohommad walk on water?

    How many times did mohommad claim to have the power to forgive sins?

    How many handicapped people did mohommad heal?

    How many times did mohommad feed 5,000 people with a little fish and bread?

    How many times did mohommad bring himself back to life after he was killed?

    none? hmmmm. why don't you take a moment and think about that piercing fact. You have proved nothing but your contempt for our God. How would you like for a Christian to insult mohommad? last I checked, Muslims killed people for this.

    Jesus Christ is a God. He proved it over and over again. The voice of God the Father testified to the same at His baptism. He performed miracles and forgave sin. He raised Himself from the dead, do you know of anyone other than God who has the power to raise Himself from the dead? Jesus Christ is our Savior He died for our sins, and on the morning of the third day he rose. There is no more glorious news in all of history than that. He lives, there is no other name by which anyone can obtain eternal life.
     
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  13. Islam

    Islam Member

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    These are miracles performed by Jesus Christ peace be upon him. Moses had miracles too. Does that make him God? Man prophets have miracles. These were Jesus's miracles. That doesnt prove he's God.

    I love Jesus Christ. I believe in him. Wh would I insult him, it makes no sence. It's like a Christian insulting Moses, makes no sence. Muslims believe in Jesus as the Christ and as Gods messenger. I didnt insult Jesus.

    It can be interpreted several ways. A being sent by God he ment that you can't tempt God through me. He wasnt saying he is God. Just listen to yourself. You're saying that God was tempted by the devil ... GOD, tempted by the devil!

    Sure thats because Muslims arent following Islam. Look at history, see when they followed Islam and see the fruits. Algebra, Chemistry, Psychology. The most non racist nation on earth. Just study the Islamic history and you tell me.


    He was born miraculously, a virgin birth. He was Gods prophet, and one of the mightiest, and the Christ. He wasnt God's son, he wasnt God. It is not beffiting in the majesty of God to begget a son or have any partners, far exhalted is he.

    This is a debate forum. Since I believe Jesus isnt God I cant just keep my mouth shut and not try to show the truth.

    Thomas being the doubtfull one that he was, was surprised when he saw Jesus. He didnt believe it was him. So out of shocked he cried out Oh my God! Not Oh My God as in Jesus, but as in OMG! I cant believe it! etc

    As for the rest of the quotes, they can be interpreted in several ways. And the Bible itself according to your own scholars has so many grave mistakes, so personally I dont trust it.

    The Old Testament is corrupt. It isnt the word of God. The old testament we have with us today isnt the one revealed to Moses. For crying out loud, have you read the old testament? Did you read the erotic stories in it and the incest? You actually think God would say such a thing? I think you should read the Quran and compare.

    PROPHETS (BUT NAKED): If such are the priests, God bless the congregation— (a) "And he (Noah) drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he lay NAKED within his tent." GENESIS 9-21 (b) 'And he (Saul) stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down NAKED all that day and all that night Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets? " 1 SAMUEL 19:24 (c) "How glorious was the king of Israel (David) to day, who UNCOVERED (became naked) himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly UNCOVERS himself 2 SAMUEL 6:20 (d) And the Lord said, like as my servant ISAIAH hath walked NAKED and barefoot three years . . . " . . young and old, NAKED and barefoot, even with their buttocks UNCOVERED, to the shame of Egypt. ISAIAH 20:3-4
    [SIZE=+1]RAPE:[/SIZE] Brother rapes and commits incest with his sister— (a) Howbeit he (Amnon, one of the sons of David) would not hearken unto her this sister Tamar's voice: but, being stronger than she, forced (raped) her, and LAY (had sex) with her." 2 SAMUEL 13:14 Son commits incest and rapes his mothers wholesale! (b) "So they spread Absalom (another of the sons of David) a tent upon the top of the house; and Absalom WENT IN (had intercourse) unto his father's concubines (same as "wives", see KETURAH in the index) in the sight of ISRAEL" 2 SAMUEL 16:22
    [SIZE=+1]SABBATH: [/SIZE]Sabbath as a standing insult to God in the Bible— " . . for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and WAS REFRESHED." EXODUS 31:17 On the contrary the Holy Qur'an states: "His throne doth extend Over the heavens And the earth, and He feeleth No fatigue in guarding And preserving them For He is the most High, The Supreme (in glory)." Holy Qur'an 2:255
    [SIZE=+1]SARAH:[/SIZE] The Holy Bible does not even spare God from illicit sexual aspersions being ascribed to Him: In the case of the conception of Jesus Christ (peace be upon him), God Almighty arranged for Mary to conceive Jesus by the intervention of the Holy Ghost, as witnessed in the Bible: (a) "The Holy Ghost shall COME UPON thee (the question is, how?) and the power of the most High shall OVERSHADOW thee (again, how?). LUKE 1:35 Whereas in the case of Isaac, his conception took place in the womb of Sarah by the direct intervention of God himself, as recorded in His (?) Holy Book: (b) "And the Lord VISITED Sarah, as he had PROMISED and FULFILLED what he had SPOKEN. And Sarah CONCEIVED . . . " GENESIS 21:1-2

    The eminent Billy Graham from the United States of America dramatized this verse in front of 40,000 people in King Park, Durban, with his index finger sticking out and swinging his outstretched arm from right to left, he said: "And the Holy Ghost came and impregnated Mary!" On the other hand St. Luke tells us the very same thing but less crudely. He says, that when the annunciation was made, Mary was perturbed. Her natural reaction was :
    "How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?" (Luke 1:34) meaning sexually.
    The Quranic narrative is:
    "She said: O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" (3:47) meaning sexually.
    In essence there is no difference between these two statements "seeing I know not a man" and "when no man hath touched me". Both the quotations have an identical meaning. It is simply a choice of different words meaning the same thing. But the respective replies to Mary's plea in the two Books (the Quran and the Bible) are revealing.
    [SIZE=+1]The Biblical Version[/SIZE]
    Says the Bible:
    "And the angle answered and said into her : 'The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" (Luke 1:35)
    Can't you see that you are giving the atheist, the skeptic, the agnostic a stick to beat you with? They may well ask "How did the Holy Ghost come upon Mary?" "How did the Highest overshadow her?" We know that literally it does not mean that: that it was an immaculate conception, but the language used here, is distasteful. Now contrast this with the language of the Quran:
    [SIZE=+1]The Quranic Version[/SIZE]
    "He said (the angel says in reply): 'Even so: Allah (God) createth what He willeth: when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!' " (3:47)
    This is the Muslim concept of the birth of Jesus. For God to create a Jesus, without a human father, He merely has to will it. If He wants to create a million Jesus' without fathers or mothers, He merely wills them into existence. He does not have to take seeds and transfer them, like men or animals by contact or artificial insemination . He wills everything into being by His word of command "Be" and "It is".

    Im asking you, which would you rather read to your daughter?

    Fore more on Christ in Islam plz read:
    http://www.jamaat.net/cis/ChristInIslam.html


    Just read the link I gave you.


    First of all his real name wasnt even jesus. His name was Eesa Al Maseeh. Jesus the Christ. Maseeh means Christ. And it doesnt mean God saves.

    No where does it say he is God. It says the love of God is in him. Gods spirit is in him. Did you even read the verses you quoted?
     
  14. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    Christ be glorified inme now
    For you Islam take the term "God"
    Christ is no God that is true
    but do not seek to confuse those who I will term as Sheep - here
    For There is no God
    In the heavenly- no such term will be used-
    For every God is an Idol of the Nation
    every God has another who rules over him
    Do you deem this God to be Christ- if you deem it so then you too hav e become subject to the Vanity of Religion
    Christ is
    There is no beginning or end of days for when he came forth he was not in need of time - nor was he incomplete- so he had no need of you or me-
    And for the record for the church as it exist- Christ is "GOD"
     
  15. writer

    writer Active Member

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    13 This is a debate forum. Since I believe Jesus isnt God I cant just keep my mouth shut and not try to show the truth.
    U could try to respond to any of the rebuttals on the 1st page, if u were open, or serious
     
  16. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    Christ be glorified inme now
    For you Islam take the term "God"
    Christ is no God that is true
    but do not seek to confuse those who I will term as Sheep - here
    For There is no God
    In the heavenly- no such term will be used-
    For every God is an Idol of the Nation
    every God has another who rules over him
    Do you deem this God to be Christ- if you deem it so then you too hav e become subject to the Vanity of Religion
    Christ is
    There is no beginning or end of days for when he came forth he was not in need of time - nor was he incomplete- so he had no need of you or me-
    And for the record for the church as it exist- Christ is "GOD"
     
  17. Islam

    Islam Member

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  18. SB Habakuk

    SB Habakuk Active Member

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    If Christ is not God who is Allah- I tell you- Allah's birth is a vulgar one- Who is mohammed-
    I will not speak of the dead
     
  19. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Why is it a lie? Its the verse you quoted, not me.

    1st Thessalonians 5:18 In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.​
    Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


     
  20. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Brother, Allah means God. Christian Arabs use the word Allah when reffering to Jesus too. Get ur facts straight.
     
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