Proof against the existence of God?

[Trailblazer]

It is? You do believe in Baha'u'llah don't you? That is the source of the party line:

51. O SON OF MAN!
My calamity is My providence, outwardly it is fire and vengeance, but inwardly it is light and mercy. Hasten thereunto that thou mayest become an eternal light and an immortal spirit. This is My command unto thee, do thou observe it.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

That doesn't seem logical to me to believe in Baha'u'llah and disbelieve what He says. You did know about this one, didn't you? There is a disconnect there.

Of course I know that Hidden Word.

I think you rely too much upon the Hidden Words since you are into studying them. We are just supposed to believe that without really understanding it because Baha'u'llah wrote it? I have to agree with some of the atheists here that is blind adherence to dogma.

This Hidden Word does not necessarily apply to every calamity of every person on earth, it is just a general principle we are supposed to keep in mind. There are exceptions to everything Baha'u'llah wrote and much of it is like a pep talk to encourage people to have the right attitude towards suffering. Below is another pep talk that will not necessarily be everyone's fate:

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes. You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 329

Maybe as Servants of God we are destined for all that in the next world, but not everyone experiences the 'benefits' in this world. There are serious problems that come with interpreting any scriptures too literally, and this not only applies to the Bible.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket, but it's wet up here in Washington.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'u'llah said:

The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 156)

Yes, it is a belief, but it's based on reason, based on my belief in Baha'u'llah also. But I think I get it. Baha'u'llah is just delivering a message for you from God. It does not mean for you that God is fair and just in telling Baha'u'llah to say that. I've heard a similar line of reasoning from you in the past. Maybe that's changed.

Baha'u'llah did not describe it and in other Writings He explained why.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

Okay, maybe it makes sense why it was not described, according to Baha'u'llah, but why should the rest of us pay the price for what a few people might feel and do?

 

[John53]

We would also need to prove that there was no God involved in the Prophets Who were tortured, exiled, imprisoned and crucified yet Their Cause lives even today in the hearts and minds of billions thousands of years after Their death. If it’s not a power born of God then what was it.

Their words have also been twisted and used for great evil. Why would a God let their words be used like that?

Many historical figures are still remembered today, it's not that uncommon.

Scientifically gravity is proven whenever something is dropped but we cannot see gravity or the laws of physics. Spiritual forces are also intelligible realities that exist but their sphere of influence is minds and hearts. So when a Prophet arises we see a new religion, pattern of life, civilisation and culture born which affects humanity for thousands of years.

Gravity can be tested by some very simple experiments. I am unaware of any simple God tests.

An example from the Bab how successive Prophets overcame opposition because of the power of God.

Scatter throughout the length and breadth of this land, and, with steadfast feet and sanctified hearts, prepare the way for His coming. Heed not your weaknesses and frailty; fix your gaze upon the invincible power of the Lord, your God, the Almighty. Has He not, in past days, caused Abraham, in spite of His seeming helplessness, to triumph over the forces of Nimrod? Has He not enabled Moses, whose staff was His only companion, to vanquish Pharaoh and his hosts? Has He not established the ascendancy of Jesus, poor and lowly as He was in the eyes of men, over the combined forces of the Jewish people? Has He not subjected the barbarous and militant tribes of Arabia to the holy and transforming discipline of Muḥammad, His Prophet? Arise in His name, put your trust wholly in Him, and be assured of ultimatevictory.’

I doubt the Lords invincible power when his words get used for evil.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Their words have also been twisted and used for great evil. Why would a God let their words be used like that?

Many historical figures are still remembered today, it's not that uncommon.



Gravity can be tested by some very simple experiments. I am unaware of any simple God tests.



I doubt the Lords invincible power when his words get used for evil.

The concept of freedom of choice is one of the things which makes us human. If God made us all subservient slaves to His Will then we would be no more than mechanical robots. Do we really want freedom of choice taken away?

There is no equal in human history to the Prophet. All civilisations, cultures, every life on this planet believer and non believer is affected by Their appearance. Just an example. Thou shalt not kill is imbedded in the laws of every nation on earth even though it originated with Moses. The Prophet needs much more explanation than you have given and written off so nonchalantly. Have you studied Their lives and how They withstood and overcame the severest of persecution and establish Their ascendancy worldwide for thousands of years! Which king has done this?

The simple test of God is that His Prophets transform both man and society.

Much good has come from religion. Charities, Humanitarian organisations, schools, universities, promotes goodwill and the golden rule, promotes love and brotherhood, teaches service to humanity and to help the poor, promotes good morals and the leading of a virtuous life. Creates community and gives purpose and direction to one’s life and meaning. Religion is the most powerful force for good in the world.

 

[Dawnofhope]

completely convinced" implies some kind of absolute certainty.
I know of almost no atheists who would profess such certainty.

Just because you do not know of any such atheists, it doesn't mean they don't exist. Perhaps there are atheists you know who are like that, but you just don't see it.

 

[nPeace]

I guess. It's become so convoluted I really have no idea.

Great if you ignore revelations or this one....

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” - Matthew 25:46

No need to ignore any scripture.
That's what's done here... or am I mistaken, and you didn't just do what I think you did - ignore the scriptures I referenced.

I take all the scriptures in their proper context.
Doing so, we see they agree.

Since the ones some people ignore... case in point - Romans 6:23; Genesis 3:19 + Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:4, says A, the ones some people run for, don't say A is wrong. They simply say, "You misunderstand me, if you think I contradict A. So maybe go back to the beginning and come again."

That's equivalent to you showing me Ephesians 5:28, 29
28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation,
...along with Matthew 22:39
...and I run for Matthew 5:29-30... ignoring anything you showed me, and said, No. I have a right to cut off anything that offends me, because Jesus said so.

I don't find the Bible to be as complicated as some people try to make it. I think it has a lot to do with the heart - how humble, or not so humble we are.
In fact, that evidently is what it is. 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12; James 4:6-8

Indeed

Convince me of what? Your ability to interpret the bible correctly? If so... valid evidence.

I can't even convince you that I don't need to interpret the Bible.
How can I ever do that if someone does not want to be convinced?
Let me demonstrate.

Matthew 25:41 <-> Mark 9:47-48 <-> Revelation 20:14
One passage explains the other. That's what interpretation is. So, scripture interprets scripture.
I don't need to interpret it.
Although, I can and should explain things to others, but if I use scriptures to do so, it's not my interpretation.

How do you respond to that?

Yes

Easy... we're being punished for Adam's mistake.

That's what you read?
I wonder where, but I won't ask, since I'm sure you won't be able to show me.

First of all, Adam made no mistake... Well correction. His mistake was being deliberately disobedient. (1 Timothy 2:14) . . .Adam was not deceived. . .

Second, we are not being punished.
Adam passed on his defective genes to his offspring, so they get sick and die, as they are imperfect - sin-full.
Adam caused his children's suffering, and death.
(Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men...

If we were being punished for Adam, Jesus would not have died. God's love moved him to make a sacrifice in our behalf, to save us - take us out of the quicksand Adam put us in.

You said you read the Bible, but did you study it?
I know at school, we had to study our textbooks, which was different to reading a "Hardy Boys".
There is a difference, as you well know.
We can't get very much out of the Bible if we haven't studied it.

Yes you wouldn't feel the same if you were born in different circumstances?

Born in different circumstances? That's something I can't answer, since I don't know what my mental state would be like.

However, I have been through that mentally, and with all that I have been through, from youth, along with what I now know, I would be joyful despite a change in circumstance.

That's the case with all of Jehovah's people.
Facing a lion in an arena; being burnt feet first; being whipped with iron balls and pieces of bone; being pelted with stones... I don't think starving can be any much worst.

Our strength don't come from ourselves.
(Nehemiah 8:10) . . .the joy of Jehovah is your stronghold. . .

No. You could not have read it.

I did. It was wrong. I offered to correct it. Are you saying you don't want to have it corrected?

Then why did he create them?

To live on earth. I referenced the scriptures.
You didn't read them, did you.
Isaiah 45:18; Psalms 37:29; Psalms 115:16

 

[Dawnofhope]

Why must god be a good guy?
Why can't he be a sadistic sociopath who in fact just created a world meant for making us suffer for his enjoyment?

Those who tend to promote a theist perspective [Christians, Muslims and Baha'is) don't present such a portrait of God for obvious reasons. Some atheists in my experience like to misrepresent the Abrahamic God by focusing on selected scripture.

 

[Truthseeker]

At least not now, and maybe never. But the main reason I posted here was to tell you that your post about the Baha'i poet should be in General Discussion. That is the sort of action that almost everyone here would oppose and you would let more people know of this problem if it was out for everyone to comment on. I could not even give you an approving frubal where it was. You could always ask a Mod to move it for you. You might even find some Muslim support here.

Maybe I was wrong to put it there. I don't know. I routinely put Baha'i subjects in Baha'i dir. I'm still a little hazy about the rules here. I can ask a staff member I suppose if it could be outside the Baha'i Dir. I guess feedback would be the best place to do that. Then kit would reach them all. I'll do that. Even Baha'is don't look in Baha'i dir a lot. They forget it's there, and don't watch that forum. I watch it. There has been no reactions from Baha'is so far in that thread. You can give a approving frubal if you want there, I know that. You just are not supposed to respond with words.

 

[John53]

No need to ignore any scripture.
That's what's done here... or am I mistaken, and you didn't just do what I think you did - ignore the scriptures I referenced.

What I did there was read your scripture and then post a contradictory scripture. So to get back on topic... is evidence for me that God does not exist. Not proof as the OP wants but evidence.

I take all the scriptures in their proper context.
Doing so, we see they agree.

Fancy way of saying you interpret them.

Since the ones some people ignore... case in point - Romans 6:23; Genesis 3:19 + Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:4, says A, the ones some people run for, don't say A is wrong. They simply say, "You misunderstand me, if you think I contradict A. So maybe go back to the beginning and come again."

I don't understand what you mean.

That's equivalent to you showing me Ephesians 5:28, 29
28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation,
...along with Matthew 22:39
...and I run for Matthew 5:29-30... ignoring anything you showed me, and said, No. I have a right to cut off anything that offends me, because Jesus said so.

It seems to me you're trying to take short passages from here and there to justify your interpretation.

I don't find the Bible to be as complicated as some people try to make it.

We agree on something but probably for different reasons. I read the bible as a series of books and don't jump about. I'm a simple bloke so my interpretations are simple

I think it has a lot to do with the heart - how humble, or not so humble we are.
In fact, that evidently is what it is. 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12; James 4:6-8

I can't even convince you that I don't need to interpret the Bible.
How can I ever do that if someone does not want to be convinced?
Let me demonstrate.

Matthew 25:41 <-> Mark 9:47-48 <-> Revelation 20:14
One passage explains the other. That's what interpretation is. So, scripture interprets scripture.

I didn't ask you to convince me, I said evidence would be needed to convince me.

I don't need to interpret it.
Although, I can and should explain things to others, but if I use scriptures to do so, it's not my interpretation.

How do you respond to that?

Everybody interprets the information they take in. Give 10 people a simple short story and then ask them about it and I'm fairly certain you would get 10 different versions. Maybe similar but each individually different.

That's what you read?
I wonder where, but I won't ask, since I'm sure you won't be able to show me.

The bible. Did not sin happen because of Adam and Eve?

First of all, Adam made no mistake... Well correction. His mistake was being deliberately disobedient. (1 Timothy 2:14) . . .Adam was not deceived. . .

Second, we are not being punished.
Adam passed on his defective genes to his offspring, so they get sick and die, as they are imperfect - sin-full.
Adam caused his children's suffering, and death.
(Romans 5:12) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men...

If we were being punished for Adam, Jesus would not have died. God's love moved him to make a sacrifice in our behalf, to save us - take us out of the quicksand Adam put us in.

You said you read the Bible, but did you study it?
I know at school, we had to study our textbooks, which was different to reading a "Hardy Boys".
There is a difference, as you well know.
We can't get very much out of the Bible if we haven't studied it.

I read it like I said. Twice in fact, some parts even more. No I did not study it, I'm certainly not a biblical scholar,

Born in different circumstances? That's something I can't answer, since I don't know what my mental state would be like.

Fair enough

However, I have been through that mentally, and with all that I have been through, from youth, along with what I now know, I would be joyful despite a change in circumstance.

It was just a simple hypothetical. I like hypotheticals but it appears most don't share my enthusiasm.

That's the case with all of Jehovah's people.
Facing a lion in an arena; being burnt feet first; being whipped with iron balls and pieces of bone; being pelted with stones... I don't think starving can be any much worst.

I was talking about a child born in poverty and starving to death. I doubt if they're seeing a lot of beauty in the world.

Our strength don't come from ourselves.
(Nehemiah 8:10) . . .the joy of Jehovah is your stronghold. . .


I did. It was wrong. I offered to correct it. Are you saying you don't want to have it corrected?

You should try reading what I say instead of interpreting it to mean something completely different. I'm a pretty simple bloke, there are no hidden meanings.

To live on earth. I referenced the scriptures.
You didn't read them, did you.
Isaiah 45:18; Psalms 37:29; Psalms 115:16

You've posted over 10 scriptures in this one post. It's a bit unfair, I do this as a hobby, not a job.

 

[John53]

The concept of freedom of choice is one of the things which makes us human. If God made us all subservient slaves to His Will then we would be no more than mechanical robots. Do we really want freedom of choice taken away?

I'm not sure what free will has to do with what we were discussing but since you brought it up...

In my opinion free will is nothing but an excuse used by religion when they can think of nothing else.

What free will does a kidnapped, abused child have as they are about to be murdered.
What free will does a mentally ill person have?
What free will does a 20 year old with an inoperable brain tumour have?

There is no equal in human history to the Prophet. All civilisations, cultures, every life on this planet believer and non believer is affected by Their appearance. Just an example. Thou shalt not kill is imbedded in the laws of every nation on earth even though it originated with Moses. The Prophet needs much more explanation than you have given and written off so nonchalantly. Have you studied Their lives and how They withstood and overcame the severest of persecution and establish Their ascendancy worldwide for thousands of years! Which king has done this?

All that is just your opinion unless you have valid evidence to back it up. If the prophets were so great why are their words interpreted so differently among the numerous different religions?

What's your evidence that Moses was the first to come up with thou shalt not kill? And it's a great example to show how the bible is ineffectual. The Israelites did a lot of killing after they got that law.

The simple test of God is that His Prophets transform both man and society.

If there were one religion with one message I would agree with you.

Much good has come from religion. Charities, Humanitarian organisations, schools, universities, promotes goodwill and the golden rule, promotes love and brotherhood, teaches service to humanity and to help the poor, promotes good morals and the leading of a virtuous life. Creates community and gives purpose and direction to one’s life and meaning. Religion is the most powerful force for good in the world.

Much evil has also come from religion. And much good has also come from non religious organisations.

 

[Truthseeker]

This Hidden Word does not necessarily apply to every calamity of every person on earth, it is just a general principle we are supposed to keep in mind. There are exceptions to everything Baha'u'llah wrote and much of it is like a pep talk to encourage people to have the right attitude towards suffering.

I'm not suggesting it has to apply to everyone. You seem to doubt it applies to anyone. I did say earlier I think that not all benefit from suffering. You also have to have right attitude towards the suffering for it to be beneficial according to that Hidden Word by my understanding. You need to "hasten thereunto". Sometimes if you have a mental condition you can't really have that attitude. My brother Phil had a mental condition that I think got in the way of that, for instance. You have a hard time with that also I think because of circumstances beynd your control.

Sorry to be such a wet blanket, but it's wet up here in Washington.

There, too, huh? It's flooding badly in California. Very strange considering the drought that has been there for years. Looking at the Weather Channel, since the third of January it has rained every day in Olympia except on the 10th. It doesn't say how much rain, or how much of the day it has rained each day.

 

[Truthseeker]

Baha'u'llah did not describe it and in other Writings He explained why.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.

Death proffereth unto every confident believer the cup that is life indeed. It bestoweth joy, and is the bearer of gladness. It conferreth the gift of everlasting life.

As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 345-346

Okay, maybe it makes sense why it was not described, according to Baha'u'llah, but why should the rest of us pay the price for what a few people might feel and do?

That first quote was what I was thinking of, but I did not think of that other quote at the time. Good job. You are to Gleanings as I am to the Hidden Words.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Just because you do not know of any such atheists, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

True. And I'm sure they exist.
However, they seem to be a very small minority.
I'm not even sure if there are any like that on this forum.

Perhaps there are atheists you know who are like that, but you just don't see it.

Unlikely. It's an accusation that is very very common.
Which is why diagrams like this one show up very frequently when it comes to this topic:

In pretty much any atheist / theist debate, this is a topic that will pop-up sooner or later.

Every atheist I know personally, identifies as an agnostic atheist.

Those who are "completely certain" that no gods exist, would be gnostic atheist.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Those who tend to promote a theist perspective [Christians, Muslims and Baha'is) don't present such a portrait of God for obvious reasons. Some atheists in my experience like to misrepresent the Abrahamic God by focusing on selected scripture.

If a sadistic sociopathic god exists, I wouldn't expect that god to reveal himself as such.
In fact, I could even argue a case that such a god might in fact "reveal" a whole bunch of mutually exclusive religions to various populations, just to make them argue and fight.


Having said that, I don't consider the abrahamic god to be the epitome of goodness.
Au contraire. That god imo looks more like some kind of mafia godfather or a celestial Kim Jong Un or Putin.

Petty, narcistic, homophobic, jealous, divisive, vindictive, cruel, genocidal, infanticidal, misogenistic,...

 

[Subduction Zone]

Maybe I was wrong to put it there. I don't know. I routinely put Baha'i subjects in Baha'i dir. I'm still a little hazy about the rules here. I can ask a staff member I suppose if it could be outside the Baha'i Dir. I guess feedback would be the best place to do that. Then kit would reach them all. I'll do that. Even Baha'is don't look in Baha'i dir a lot. They forget it's there, and don't watch that forum. I watch it. There has been no reactions from Baha'is so far in that thread. You can give a approving frubal if you want there, I know that. You just are not supposed to respond with words.

If you like you could put it in a discussion thread where no debate is allowed.

And I am pretty sure I cannot even give it an approving frubal. They are turned off for me there since I never claimed to be Baha'i. In fact I could not respond there if I wanted to. Since it is a DIR in a religion other than mine comments are turned off for me too.

EDIT: I double checked. I can neither frubal nor comment there. The system won't let me. You could move it to "Interfaith Discussions". No debate is allowed there, and it is valid news.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are to Gleanings as I am to the Hidden Words.

Yep.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Okay, so if I understand you...
all humans "are superstitious animals that tend to invent all kinds of magical "explanations" for things they don't understand".
Some invent gods. Others invent monsters under their bed. Others invent UFOs....
All of these however, are just imaginative things.
In that case, all atheist have a belief in some imaginative magical things, just that those things are not gods.
Am I understanding you correctly?

Not just magical things.
I also said that this tendency of superstitious beliefs also includes harmless trivial things, like assuming causal links where there aren't any. "Seeing" patterns where there aren't any.

It all centers around type 2 cognition errors. The false positive.

That covers a very wide area of false beliefs.

Drawing the wrong conclusion, like thinking rainfall is causing a sewer smell in the house while it was just a coincidental correlation and the real cause was something else. That's thinking to see a pattern where there isn't any.

Like thinking there's a face-like artificial structure on Mars while it's just a case of pareidolia and a random rock formation.

Like thinking homeopathy cured you from the flu while it had nothing to do with it.

All these things are referred to as "magical thinking". It doesn't necessarily mean that magical things are being believed. There isn't anything magical about rainfall causing a sewer smell, for example. But it is seeing a pattern where there isn't one.


Humans are very prone to type 2 cognition errors. And such errors = superstition.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

WOW we have a natural tendency towards “religiosity”

No. That's not at all what I said. But I don't find it surprising that you are once again trying to twist what is being said.

What I actually said was that we have a natural tendency to engage in type 2 cognition errors.
The result of which is superstitious thinking / beliefs. And that manifests in a multitude of ways.
One such way are religious beliefs.

sounds like a prediction that theist would make

And ironically, that would be a good example of such a cognition error.

and something “starange” and unexpected from a naturalist point of view…………why would an ancient monkey evolve this ability? ....... why would natural selection, select superstitious monkeys ?

Because the false positive has great survivability value.
And it's not just monkey's, it's practically ALL animals. Especially those that tend to be lunch to predators.

The classic example of the noise in the bushes... is it just the wind? Or is it a dangerous predator to sneak up on you?

You have 2 choices:
- just assume it's a dangerous predator out to get you and flee
- stick around and investigate to see what the noise is.

If it IS a predator, then those who just flee survive. Those that stick around are lunch.
If it's not a predator, then those who flee engaged in a type 2 cognition error.

Even pigeons exhibit this behavior.

Not only do we have the tendency to engage in such false positives... we also infuse agency into it and make it all about "us". That noise is assumed to be an agent. And not just any agent... but an agent that is watching US, that is out to get US.


These things are well known in the world of evolutionary psychology.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Who is to say those things ever took place?

Ancient myths claim they took place.
A rational mind pondering these claims will conclude that they likely didn't, or that at least there is zero rational reason to believe they did.

Just because they are in the Bible that does not mean they actually took place.

Exactly. Just because claims are made, is no reason to believe them.
And that goes for all books - not just the bible.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I don't see anything wrong with allowing suffering for good reason.
We do that when we fo to the doctor, or take our children to them... Especially when surgery is involved.

I don't understand then, why you think the "concept of an All-loving God is highly problematic".
I would be interested in hearing why.

There is a tendency to anthropomorhise God and the way he acts towards us. When I think of all loving in a human sense, a loving spouse or devoted friend comes to mind. I don't view our relationship with God in quite the same way. Do you?