Problem of evil, is this a satisfying answer?

[Koldo]

Are you trying to say God causes evil? If so, then you are saying evil is a force. I disagree that evil is a force.

Erm... No.
I am saying an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God can't exist because this world logically contradicts this concept, aka 'problem of evil'.

 

[Road Warrior]

Erm... No.
I am saying an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God can't exist because this world logically contradicts this concept, aka 'problem of evil'.

What is the problem with evil and how does it preclude an all-powerful force?

Consider Deism.

 

[Koldo]

What is the problem with evil and how does it preclude an all-powerful force?

It doesn't preclude an all-powerful force. It precludes an all-powerful being that knows how to prevent all evil from happening (omniscient) and wants to prevent all evil from happening (omnibenevolent).

 

[leov]

It doesn't preclude an all-powerful force. It precludes an all-powerful being that knows how to prevent all evil from happening (omniscient) and wants to prevent all evil from happening (omnibenevolent).

Physical world is a black where we can bleed each other and we can heal each other, it staged so we learn make to correct divisions to care.

 

[Road Warrior]

It doesn't preclude an all-powerful force. It precludes an all-powerful being that knows how to prevent all evil from happening (omniscient) and wants to prevent all evil from happening (omnibenevolent).

Dude, you're statement is erroneous for at least two reasons; one, that it does treat "evil" as a force, as something to be fought or prevented. Is a tsunami evil? Even if it kills 2.5 million people? No, it's just an act of physics. Anyone killed by it was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyone like Pat Robertson who declares a disaster was caused by God because people sinned is just a frickin' moron.

Second, your statement assumes that a little suffering is a bad thing. That's not necessarily so as anyone who has worked out or participated in a sport quickly recognizes. Given that a person believes in God, then they recognize that dying is only a step. The moving on from a short, mortal life to an eternal existence. How can dying, which is a natural occurrence we all will face, be evil? Crap happens.

 

[Koldo]

Dude, you're statement is erroneous for at least two reasons; one, that it does treat "evil" as a force, as something to be fought or prevented. Is a tsunami evil? Even if it kills 2.5 million people? No, it's just an act of physics. Anyone killed by it was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyone like Pat Robertson who declares a disaster was caused by God because people sinned is just a frickin' moron.

How can someone be omnibenevolent and yet not want to prevent evil ? That's logically contradictory. If you don't want to prevent evil, in what sense can you be omnibenevolent ?

Second, your statement assumes that a little suffering is a bad thing. That's not necessarily so as anyone who has worked out or participated in a sport quickly recognizes. Given that a person believes in God, then they recognize that dying is only a step. The moving on from a short, mortal life to an eternal existence. How can dying, which is a natural occurrence we all will face, be evil? Crap happens.

I have participated in sports' events and I can grant you that suffering by itself is not a good thing. Can you explain why you think otherwise ? Also, I haven't claimed that dying is by itself evil.

 

[Koldo]

Physical world is a black where we can bleed each other and we can heal each other, it staged so we learn make to correct divisions to care.

And, therefore... ?

 

[Road Warrior]

How can someone be omnibenevolent and yet not want to prevent evil ? That's logically contradictory. If you don't want to prevent evil, in what sense can you be omnibenevolent ?



I have participated in sports' events and I can grant you that suffering by itself is not a good thing. Can you explain why you think otherwise ? Also, I haven't claimed that dying is by itself evil.

You're missing the point; there isn't any such force as evil. Lemme guess, you're a teenage atheist trying to prove there is nothing beyond death and no God. Go for it. Live a happy life then die. Nobody cares except for those close to you. As the saying goes:

"A Single Death is a Tragedy; a Million Deaths is a Statistic"

As for others, I tend to think there is something more to existence than eating, sleeping and screwing....or playing video games as the young angry atheists often do.

If there is a God, then I think Jefferson was correct: it's a "watchmaker" God. What happens in mortal life doesn't matter, it's one's eternal life that does matter. Jesus even gave a similar comment: "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"

 

[leov]

And, therefore... ?

Therefore? Some see light, some don't and therefore go around and around.

 

[Deeje]

How evil ultimately started? is not a question the Bible really answers so I don't feel the need to go there

Some say that God made the world good but changeable (for the worse)

How evil started is explained in Genesis. It began with the woman being persuaded by the serpent to eat the fruit that God said was his exclusive property. It was exacerbated by the woman convincing the man to join her in the act of stealing something that belonged to God.

The first indication that evil had infiltrated their consciousness was the sudden recognition that they were naked. The fact that they made loin coverings for themselves, shows that they recognized that sinful acts were now possible with the reproductive parts of their own bodies. This knowledge of evil was not supposed to be their possession, but they took it because they thought God was holding back something that they had a right to know......how wrong they were!

Once this knowledge was unleashed...there was no sending it back. God would have to find a solution in order to bring his original purpose back on track. (Isaiah 55:11) He began to implement that solution immediately by giving the Bible's first prophesy in Genesis 3:15. This involved sending a savior who would deal the original rebel, (satan) a fatal head wound, but only after the serpent had dealt the seed of the woman a wound in his heel (not fatal, recoverable) The players in this prophesy did not become known until Jesus came.

Originally, God made the world and the humans, perfect...without any defects. But with this one act of disobedience came the knowledge of evil and its consequences. It was a deliberate act of defiance against the expressed will of God, abusing the free will that had been granted to them. Within one generation, a murderer was produced...such was the power of sin. They lost so much because of being convinced that they could have had something better.....and no human has ever benefited from what happened in Eden. Humans didn't become like God at all.....instead they became more and more evil like the serpent, satan the devil.

 

[Firemorphic]

If anyone have time to watch it, regardless of your own religion or lack there off, do you think his explanation is satisfying in answering the problem of evil?

I've never understood the 'problem of evil', nor why it would be a problem for any of the Abrahamic religions in particular.
Christianity (the usual culprit), at least in it's orthodoxy, treated this as a central aspect of Christian intellectualism and theology, not as a problem but as a piece of understanding life. Understanding suffering is as central to orthodox Christianity as it is to Buddhism, and in a similar manner as well.
However all of these billions of denominations spawned from Protestantism have created a new Christian narrative that is generally divorced from it's initially highly philosophical concerns.

 

[Nimos]

I've never understood the 'problem of evil', nor why it would be a problem for any of the Abrahamic religions in particular.
Christianity (the usual culprit), at least in it's orthodoxy, treated this as a central aspect of Christian intellectualism and theology, not as a problem but as a piece of understanding life. Understanding suffering is as central to orthodox Christianity as it is to Buddhism, and in a similar manner as well.
However all of these billions of denominations spawned from Protestantism have created a new Christian narrative that is generally divorced from it's initially highly philosophical concerns.

You might be right that its not. Im really sure that at in Judaism its not an issue. I think the problem arise when Christianity, or the bible say that God is only good, which natural make you wonder about evil and where or why that is allowed. And maybe they had other explanations for it back in days, that are unknown to us or maybe they simply didn't thought about it, and that evil was self inflicted, therefore God was just when he punished people. You have verses or laws in the bible, where God say that its people's own fault.

But pain and suffering can be connected to evil, so if we look at natural evil, like a Tsunami, then its not because it, it self is evil. But rather that it is allowed to happen in the first place and why God doesn't stop it, as it can cause a lot of suffering.

 

[Koldo]

You're missing the point; there isn't any such force as evil.

I only use the word 'force' when I talk about Star Wars. I haven't used it to describe evil.

Lemme guess, you're a teenage atheist trying to prove there is nothing beyond death and no God. Go for it. Live a happy life then die. Nobody cares except for those close to you. As the saying goes:

"A Single Death is a Tragedy; a Million Deaths is a Statistic"

Thanks for calling me a teenager but I am 30.
I am not trying to prove there is no God.
I am trying to prove there is no omnimax God.

As for others, I tend to think there is something more to existence than eating, sleeping and screwing....or playing video games as the young angry atheists often do.

If there is a God, then I think Jefferson was correct: it's a "watchmaker" God. What happens in mortal life doesn't matter, it's one's eternal life that does matter. Jesus even gave a similar comment: "For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and forfeit his soul?"

The argument relies on a quite specific concept of God. If, for instance, you were to say God is apathetic towards our existence the argument can't touch that. If you say God is very powerful but not in an unlimited manner, the argument also can't touch that. There are lot of different ways to deal with it. Calling me an angry atheist is not one of them.

The 'problem of evil' has a pretty long story in philosophy. Look it up.

 

[Koldo]

Therefore? Some see light, some don't and therefore go around and around.

Let me try again: What do you intend to achieve by saying what you did ? In what way is it relevant ? How does it excuse the existence of evil ?

 

[Deeje]

I think the problem arise when Christianity, or the bible say that God is only good, which natural make you wonder about evil and where or why that is allowed.

Whatever exists in creation has an equal opposite. Evil exists as an equal opposite of good. It was the only thing that God withheld from his human creation by putting it behind a major penalty, but it still had to be a choice, because they were free willed. All God could do was make it off limits, and leave it up to them to obey him.

And maybe they had other explanations for it back in days, that are unknown to us or maybe they simply didn't thought about it, and that evil was self inflicted, therefore God was just when he punished people. You have verses or laws in the bible, where God say that its people's own fault.

Evil was introduced by those who thought that they were better off making their own decisions and it separated them from their Creator and brought with it the propensity to make bad choices with unwanted consequences. God issued guidelines for his now imperfect creatures, but if they ignored his rules, they just brought more problems on themselves.

But pain and suffering can be connected to evil, so if we look at natural evil, like a Tsunami, then its not because it, it self is evil. But rather that it is allowed to happen in the first place and why God doesn't stop it, as it can cause a lot of suffering.

The whole point of the exercise is that humans thought that they could do things better by making their own decisions, so God withdrew his protection and allowed them to see where their decisions would take them. Yet he never left them without his guidance. As far as I can see, all that humans have proven is that they are hopeless at determining their own future. No matter what form of self-rule they have tried, it has ended badly.

We need God....he doesn't need us. Look what we have done to his Earth! If he is the Landlord, then he is fully justified in evicting all the bad tenants.

He will then repair the damage and reward those who stuck to his guidelines, with a restoration of his original paradise, also restoring his Sovereign rulership over the earth for all time to come....which is what he had planned in the beginning. It just required a detour so that the abuse of free will could be dealt with permanently. He took the long range view and it will stand forever.

That is how I see it from the Bible's viewpoint.

 

[leov]

Let me try again: What do you intend to achieve by saying what you did ? In what way is it relevant ? How does it excuse the existence of evil ?

Not really , I need to apologize because I by mistake attached my answer to a wrong post. Sorry.

 

[leov]

Let me try again: What do you intend to achieve by saying what you did ? In what way is it relevant ? How does it excuse the existence of evil ?

Existence of evil is a part existence of good and it is something that we need to learn to do - choose good according to the Golden Rule, that is the salvation.

 

[Stevicus]

I found this video with some guy trying to explaining the problem of evil. The guy is a Christian so he is obviously explaining it from that point of view. Its a fairly long video (around 52 minutes) so can't really sum it up in any meaningful way.

If anyone have time to watch it, regardless of your own religion or lack there off, do you think his explanation is satisfying in answering the problem of evil?

I would say that evil flourishes primarily due to religion, especially when religion discourages and/or forbids people from actually confronting evil. Religion tells people "do not judge," "vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord," and "turn the other cheek."

I would also blame governments and legal systems which do not take into consideration a person's motive for an alleged crime. For example, a good person might kill an evil person, yet in the eyes of the system, the good person would still be guilty of murder. Indeed, the system (and religion) would consider the act itself to be evil - even though the intentions and motives were good.

When we design legal systems and religious philosophies to blatantly protect evil people, then it will be allowed to flourish unabated and unfettered.

 

[Firemorphic]

You might be right that its not. Im really sure that at in Judaism its not an issue. I think the problem arise when Christianity, or the bible say that God is only good, which natural make you wonder about evil and where or why that is allowed. And maybe they had other explanations for it back in days, that are unknown to us or maybe they simply didn't thought about it, and that evil was self inflicted, therefore God was just when he punished people. You have verses or laws in the bible, where God say that its people's own fault.

But pain and suffering can be connected to evil, so if we look at natural evil, like a Tsunami, then its not because it, it self is evil. But rather that it is allowed to happen in the first place and why God doesn't stop it, as it can cause a lot of suffering.

I could say a lot about this from all three abrahamic positions, it's a truly important topic.

Pretty much all traditional religions teach forms of detachment though, which is important to keep in mind.

One thing worth pondering over, when it comes to Judaism/Christianity, is the Book of Job. What do you think the ultimate message of that book is?
I generally think people don't give it enough thought, same with Ecclesiastes too.

What I do wonder, is for those that get so distraught about suffering and evil, what about it's opposite? I think there is a tendency to favor suffering and evil over pleasure and happiness, because one is routed in pressure and struggle on the Ego whereas the other one strokes the Ego and can allow for taking it for granted. It's obvious that suffering bothers one's conscience, whereas happiness doesn't.
Generally people don't take suffering for granted, if you catch my drift. They instead let suffering define themselves, gives them a form of identity. Yet happiness and wellbeing, "peace", looses it's thought and attention because it lifts the weight off the Ego.
Y'know, why aren't you troubled when you're happy? doesn't make sense right?

Essentially though, Evil is a product of dualism, which is consequent of materiality. This life is to get from point A to point C, evil has no reality outside of this life. The highest forms of Good are what bridges between the material and the transcendent, hence how these virtues are applied to God. But God itself transcends such qualities, which is worth keeping in mind. God is not a person, or entity, so it's best not to think of any of this as a guy in a control desk flicking switches.

When it comes to Christianity, I think Jesus' crucifixion is a powerful testament to the life/death paradigm. Basically it's a massive middle finger to that cycle and a reminder of what this life is really like. However the 21st century itself is gradually getting more self-aware of stuff, which is promising. Christianity has been appallingly bastardized over the past few centuries, unfortunately. It's become it's polar opposite, when it used to be a very philosophical yet fearless religion. It still had moments of stupidity and tribalness but in general it wasn't a kind of "cup of tea unicorn happy smiling Jesus" freakshow.

All three Abrahamic religions, in their most genuine forms, know how bad this world can be, know how evil and violent it can be, and does not cower away from that or fall into laziness. Christianity has been trivialized, Judaism has been conspiratorialized and Islam has been fed to fearmongerers.

Anyway, suffering, evil, these things are really to be contemplated heavily. Eventually a light-bulb moment happens with it, perhaps in meditation, perhaps helping out a homeless shelter, perhaps praying, perhaps being caught in a bank robbery, perhaps having sex.

This question itself though can also be contemplated outside of a religious perspective too, which also leads to a lot of interesting potential answers. (as long as you don't contradict yourself and say that good/evil is objectively relative etc) Perhaps maybe even a good place to start without a starting place of blaming it on God, then after things have been thought out, then add God into the equation etc.

 

[Koldo]

Existence of evil is a part existence of good and it is something that we need to learn to do - choose good according to the Golden Rule, that is the salvation.

Why do we need to learn that ? Why can't we, for instance, be unable to do evil ?
Also, what about natural evils that cause suffering ?