Power

[Sir Doom]

I would point you to the Tao. Which the path of life is to go with the flow. Intentional manipulation will get you nowhere. There is a large group of people in the world that follow this.

You manipulated reality in order to create this response. I assume you posted intentionally as opposed to accidentally or as a matter of course. Your post was previously not within reality. Now it is. Your power at work.

 

[outis]

Power is one of the most desired things obviously. I'd like more power too.
But it's not everything to everyone.
Did you, Sir Doom, expect to get some power somehow by posting this thread? I don't think so. Your own thread seems a pretty good evidence against your thesis.
Sure, you "manipulate reality" when writing here. But in doing nothing, you'd "manipulate reality" as well.

I believe that this only represents half of human values, however.

On the most basic level, people tend to pursue personal gratification and pleasure. People also value novelty, challenge, freedom of thought and action, social justice, and the preservation and enhancement of the wellfare of others in one's social circle. So I believe different people are driven by more than one fundamental value and that some values are opposed to others (compare power with universalism).

Power is a subset. As well as all you mention, it can be subsumed under "personal gratification" or whatever you want to call it.
You want power because you want it. You want pleasure, novelty, challenge and so forth because you want it.
Saying that amounts to saying nothing of course. And that's the point.

 

[outis]

Assuming that what is not what? I don't understand the question.

Assuming the world is not perfect, then who it is really that is motivated ? And why?

 

[bobhikes]

You manipulated reality in order to create this response. I assume you posted intentionally as opposed to accidentally or as a matter of course. Your post was previously not within reality. Now it is. Your power at work.

Yes I did and it got me nowhere.

 

[Sir Doom]

Hey Doom,



I don't think you're wrong about many people valuing power and self-enhancement. Power is maintained through security, conformity, and tradition. I believe that this only represents half of human values, however.

On the most basic level, people tend to pursue personal gratification and pleasure. People also value novelty, challenge, freedom of thought and action, social justice, and the preservation and enhancement of the wellfare of others in one's social circle. So I believe different people are driven by more than one fundamental value and that some values are opposed to others (compare power with universalism).

What I believe is that personal gratification and pleasure are arrived at through a manipulation of reality. It is power that enables this to happen. The things that people value are vehicles for power. All of the things you listed are exactly that.

People don't think, "If I help this person I will be more powerful than ever."

People think things like, "That person needs help. I can help them. I am a person who helps others." This is a desire. To be the person that helps others. The power to do so is inherent. The gain of power because of doing so is inevitable and ultimately the only real reason it happened. Reality desired, reality fulfilled. Future reality secured. It's endless and unstoppable.

 

[Daemon Sophic]

Morality is that "the good of the many outweighs the good of the one, or the few."?

 

[outis]

The morality thing is interesting I think.
Why do you think it is that I don't agree with the following:

I believe that a person that works to increase power is moral and one that works to decrease power is immoral.

While I think what follows is a valuable insight:

We grant our power to those that lead us, and we expect to be rewarded with more power in return. And we are. And those that do not deliver are those we consider immoral. Those that exploit our power to their personal ends with no regard for our collective power are those we consider immoral. A person that gains power for themselves at the expense of the collective have really lost power for themselves as their power is derived from us to begin with. They would gain more by enabling the collective. I believe that this is as close to objective morality as we will ever get.

"Those that lead us" are not "one".

 

[savagewind]

Sure, you "manipulate reality" when writing here. But in doing nothing, you'd "manipulate reality" as well.

How is this true?

Doing nothing does nothing unless you have been invited to do something and refuse, then something is affected.

 

[Sir Doom]

Yes I did and it got me nowhere.

Wow, really? I guess that sugar-coated opener was nothing but that. Sugar-coating.

Go away if you don't want to be here. Who is keeping you?

 

[YmirGF]

2nd post attempt.

I scrapped the first attempt because it was sounding a tad incendiary. That said, I cannot say I am overly impressed with your thinking, Sir Doom. It strikes me as being the obvious outcome of an unrecognized, over-riding, sense of powerlessness. A pursuit of power may look awesome, but if it is simply a reaction to an overall belief in powerlessness then it is merely a defense mechanism.

The one fig leaf I'll toss your way is to applaud you for understanding how your belief ABOUT reality IMPACTS on your (and others) reality.
:clapWell done.:clap (And ... I can't really stress that one enough.)

My best advice though, is to not stop there and aggressively drill down into your psyche. You've gone this far, why stop now? You are onto something that will be immensely rewarding and given that you are fascinated by so-called "power" your quest should continue ever inwards.

 

[Sir Doom]

Power is one of the most desired things obviously. I'd like more power too.
But it's not everything to everyone.
Did you, Sir Doom, expect to get some power somehow by posting this thread? I don't think so. Your own thread seems a pretty good evidence against your thesis.
Sure, you "manipulate reality" when writing here. But in doing nothing, you'd "manipulate reality" as well.

I expected my words to carry enough of my message to cause people like you to respond. I had a vision for reality within which i discussed my thoughts on power with many people on the internet. That vision has come true through MY manipulation of reality. I used my power to make you respond. You obviously had a big hand in it as well. That doesn't diminish the fact that I knew this would happen and I posted this BECAUSE this would happen. I wanted it to happen. And it IS happening. My power at work.

I gain knowledge. A greater understanding of my own ideas an the ideas of others in reference to it. I solidify and refine my thoughts AS INTENDED. The power I wanted to gain is gained and being gained as this thread continues.

 

[Sir Doom]

Assuming the world is not perfect, then who it is really that is motivated ? And why?

I have no idea what bearing the world's perfection has on who is being motivated. I have no idea why you are asking me this at all, really. People are being motivated, I suppose? Why, because without motivation they are... not motive?

 

[Sir Doom]

The morality thing is interesting I think.
Why do you think it is that I don't agree with the following:

Probably because you've removed it from context.

The fact that you then posted the context which was really designed to head off these sorts of posts is a little confusing.

I didn't want anyone to think i was suggesting we are all trying to be mini-Hitlers, but apparently I've failed in that expectation.

 

[outis]

I have no idea why you are asking me this at all, really.

It wasn't my question (click on the little arrow in the quote), I only clarified it as per your request.

I suppose it has to do with your "ego", what it is that you figure you are, the watcher, the knower and the doer. All that stuff.
And where exactly in that mess is the "decision" made that "reality" is to be altered.

 

[YmirGF]

I didn't want anyone to think i was suggesting we are all trying to be mini-Hitlers, but apparently I've failed in that expectation.

Try to not get hung up on the side-shows. Just a thought...

 

[outis]

I didn't want anyone to think i was suggesting we are all trying to be mini-Hitlers, but apparently I've failed in that expectation.

Nor was I suggesting you did suggest such a thing. ?!?
How would I come to such a bizarre conclusion? Hitler was such a failure by your standard!

 

[outis]

I gain knowledge. A greater understanding of my own ideas an the ideas of others in reference to it. I solidify and refine my thoughts AS INTENDED. The power I wanted to gain is gained and being gained as this thread continues.

Ah, knowledge is power! Makes sense. I had a more practical understanding of what you meant by power, requiring social efficaciousness.
With a broad enough understanding of knowledge, perhaps you could indeed subsume *everything* under power/knowledge.

 

[Sir Doom]

2nd post attempt.

I scrapped the first attempt because it was sounding a tad incendiary. That said, I cannot say I am overly impressed with your thinking, Sir Doom. It strikes me as being the obvious outcome of an unrecognized, over-riding, sense of powerlessness. A pursuit of power may look awesome, but if it is simply a reaction to an overall belief in powerlessness then it is merely a defense mechanism.

Thanks for the free psychoanalysis. If you were worried about insulting me, then you probably should have scrapped this one, too. I'm not interested in your opinion of me. I'd like to hear what you think about my post though. Something beyond, "Unimpressive." Try an actual response. Go point by point if you like.

The one fig leaf I'll toss your way is to applaud you for understanding how your belief ABOUT reality IMPACTS on your (and others) reality.
:clapWell done.:clap (And ... I can't really stress that one enough.)

Keep it.

My best advice though, is to not stop there and aggressively drill down into your psyche. You've gone this far, why stop now? You are onto something that will be immensely rewarding and given that you are fascinated by so-called "power" your quest should continue ever inwards.

That probably isn't your best advice. I'm sure you've got some more gems in there.

 

[outis]

I'm not interested in your opinion of me.

It's not just an opinion of you.
Don't you think people in general want power because of a feeling of powerlessness?
Or do you think it's the other way around? That this feeling comes from a drive for power that's more basic than feelings?

Isn't it worth questioning whether what you consider "the very purpose of life" is only the reaction to a powerful feeling (which is of course not particular to you)?
Maybe this feeling is only part of a something else that could be sorted out.
And maybe it doesn't make any difference where it is this "purpose" comes from. But examining this may yield knowledge as well, yes?

Full disclosure: I'm a teleological skeptic.

 

[Sir Doom]

It's not just an opinion of you.

What it is not, is a response to my post. Its about me personally as opposed to what I'm writing. Not interested.

Don't you think people in general want power because of a feeling of powerlessness?
Or do you think it's the other way around? That this feeling comes from a drive for power that's more basic than feelings?

There is a big difference between feeling powerless and being powerless. I don't think people in general feel powerless. I think people in general have less power than they want.

Isn't it worth questioning whether what you consider "the very purpose of life" is only the reaction to a powerful feeling (which is of course not particular to you)?

I've considered it. I didn't include it in my post because I don't find it to be true.

Maybe this feeling is only part of a something else that could be sorted out.
And maybe it doesn't make any difference where it is this "purpose" comes from. But examining this may yield knowledge as well, yes?

Full disclosure: I'm a teleological skeptic.

Sure, go ahead and examine it. I'll read it.