Police, vaccinated or not!

[exchemist]

That's where the divide is I think.

Some say it's an issue of freedom and right to choose what they do with their own body and others say it's health and security.

I happen to think both are right.

Yes with vaccines both elements apply.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A couple more wrinkles in all this:

First, Chicago Police have a vaccine mandate. Any cop who is refusing to get vaccinated is a cop who apparently doesn't feel duty-bound to follow orders and directives they don't feel like following. Why would we ever assume that the vaccine mandate is the only rule they're breaking?

Second, there's a disturbing trend of growing white nationalism in American police forces as well as a growing link between white nationalism and the anti-vax movement. While I don't think we should automatically conclude that a cop who refuses to get vaccinated is a racist, vaccine refusal by a cop - especially somewhere like Chicago - should be at least considered a red flag.

 

[Suave]

You keep on focusing on people who have already had COVID. Do you think that a person can't get COVID twice?

I am guessing the risk of reinfection is less for persons who are well immune against SARS-CoV2 by natural immunity than the chances of break through cases of C.O.V.I.D. 19 reinfections happening in vaccinated persons..

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's where the divide is I think.

Some say it's an issue of freedom and right to choose what they do with their own body and others say it's health and security.

I happen to think both are right.

It's not a matter of freedom, though. Every Chicago cop is free not to get vaccinated; all they have to do is quit and find a job without a vaccine mandate (or start their own business).

It's not a matter of health and safety vs. freedom; it's health and safety vs. entitlement.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I can't speak for others but when I do call the police or EMS the last thing I'm thinking about is whether they are vaccinated. Seizure, leg broken, or being with a resident as an employee whose coughing up blood I wouldn't interview the "authorities" before letting them in the apt. What am I going to say, "police X? Did you have vaccination? No? You may infect me. Shoo. I don't know if you have COVID. Let me die in peace."

It's just not a thing most people I would hope think about. But people do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am guessing the risk of reinfection is less for person's who are well immune against SARS-CoV2 by natural immunity than break through cases of C.O.V.I.D. 19 in vaccinated person's.

Apparently, the reinfection rate is about 0.7% in the US right now. For every million people who have had COVID, about 7,000 got it again (so far).

Regardless, what matters isn't natural immunity alone vs. vaccine alone; we're talking about people who already had COVID.

The comparison that matters for them is natural immunity alone vs. natural immunity PLUS vaccination... and natural immunity plus vaccination gives much better protection than natural immunity alone.

It seems you're falling into the same ethical hole as your hypothetical cop.

The thought behind vaccine mandates isn't "oh - X% protection is good enough. As long as we get that much, we can tolerate the deaths and illness we get."

The thought is "we need to maximize protection and minimize the number of people dying, but there are limits on what we can demand that people do."

Do you understand the difference?

 

[Stevicus]

I just saw this, related to the topic of cops refusing to get vaccinated: Washington trooper signs out for last time, tells Inslee he can ‘kiss my a—‘ (msn.com)

A Washington State Patrol officer who refused to comply with the state’s vaccine mandate signed out for the last time on Friday and issued a strongly worded message to Gov. Jay Inslee, according to a report.

Robert LaMay, the officer, filmed his final sendoff in a video obtained by Jason Rantz, a host on KTTH 770/94.5FM in Seattle. He thanked his fellow officers but said he was asked to leave "because I am dirty."

He said that he worked sick and buried a lot of friends over the past 22 years of service. He acknowledged that it was the effort of the entire team that got him home safe every night to be with his family.

"I wish I could say more, but this is it so state 10-34, this is the last time you’ll hear me in a state patrol car. And Jay Inslee can kiss my a--."

On Monday, Washington will require more than 800,000 workers in the state to either be fully vaccinated or have received an exemption and job accommodation in order to keep their jobs.

The mandate applies to most state workers, long-term care employees, and teachers and staff at the state’s schools, including the state’s colleges and universities. The only opt-out is a medical or religious exemption, though the exemption only ensures continued employment if a job accommodation can be made.

Inslee’s did not immediately respond to a Fox News inquiry.

The mandatory vaccination has been the source of contention from both sides. Opponents say these orders are an infringement on their personal liberties, while supporters insist that mandatory vaccinations are needed in order to move past the COVID-19 pandemic.

Q13Fox reported that the mandate for Washington state workers is on Monday, and if they don’t comply they could lose their job. About 90% of the state’s workforce has been vaccinated.

Inslee has said that there should not be any disruption in state services.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's not a matter of freedom, though. Every Chicago cop is free not to get vaccinated; all they have to do is quit and find a job without a vaccine mandate (or start their own business).

It's not a matter of health and safety vs. freedom; it's health and safety vs. entitlement.

I think its coercion forcing anyone that has a different take other than big governments.

It's forming a hive mind mentality that fits in lockstep with authoritarian leaders that only see things their own way, and will not tolerate those who don't fall in line with their way of thinking.

 

[metis]

Virtually all employers have some demands that must be met by their employees, thus a vaccine mandate is normal procedure, plus it makes tons of sense in regards to covid. If those officers who refuse to get the vaccine want to give up their job, that's their choice.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think its coercion forcing anyone that has a different take other than big governments.

... which doesn't necessarily make it bad. Vaccine refusal certainly has consequences; if someone is a cop, presumably it's because they want to be a cop or even consider it a calling. The threat of taking this away certainly has persuasive power, but that doesn't automatically mean that their freedom is being denied.

Edit: though if you're being consistent, this principle would have interesting implications. Do you think the threat of job loss is "coercive" generally? How about, say, when a company threatens to close the plant if the workers vote to unionize? Has the employer stepped too far in that scenario?

It's forming a hive mind mentality that fits in lockstep with authoritarian leaders that only see things their own way, and will not tolerate those who don't fall in line with their way of thinking.

Well, no. The issue is practice, not thinking. A cop who thinks vaccines are dumb and pointless is welcome as long as they get vaccinated. If you take this reasonable step to keep your coworkers and the public safe, then you're good... even if you disagree with it.

 

[Suave]

Apparently, the reinfection rate is about 0.7% in the US right now. For every million people who have had COVID, about 7,000 got it again (so far).

Regardless, what matters isn't natural immunity alone vs. vaccine alone; we're talking about people who already had COVID.

The comparison that matters for them is natural immunity alone vs. natural immunity PLUS vaccination... and natural immunity plus vaccination gives much better protection than natural immunity alone.

It seems you're falling into the same ethical hole as your hypothetical cop.

The thought behind vaccine mandates isn't "oh - X% protection is good enough. As long as we get that much, we can tolerate the deaths and illness we get."

The thought is "we need to maximize protection and minimize the number of people dying, but there are limits on what we can demand that people do."

Do you understand the difference?

I can't fault an 18 year old policeman, who has a less than a 1 out of 100,000 chance of dying from a C.O.V.I.D-19 reinfection, risking a one in 10,000 chance of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by an mRNA vaccinated.

F.Y.I. The reinfection rate of somebody who has already had C.O.V.D.-19 is commonly found to be less than one percent.

I would not consider reinfection of C.O.V.I.D.-19 as posing a significant health risk.

 

[metis]

I think its coercion forcing anyone that has a different take other than big governments.

So, if I believe I have the right to murder people, that's all fine & dandy? After all, if "big government" stops me that's "coercion".

 

[metis]

I can't fault an 18 year old policeman, who has a less than a 1 out of 100,000 chance of dying from a C.O.V.I.D-19 reinfection, risking a one in 10,000 chance of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by an mRNA vaccinated.

Where in the world did you get that number?

Also, the chances of infecting someone else goes up if one hasn't had any of the vaccines as it takes longer for the antibodies to defeat the virus on its own.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Virtually all employers have some demands that must be met by their employees, thus a vaccine mandate is normal procedure, plus it makes tons of sense in regards to covid. If those officers who refuse to get the vaccine want to give up their job, that's their choice.

An editorial I read about this described policing as a profession where your employer gets to dictate even what kind of hat you have to wear.

Here are the rules of conduct that every Chicago police officer signed up for: https://www.chicago.gov/dam/city/depts/cpb/PoliceDiscipline/RulesofConduct.pdf

Rule 5 and Rule 6 seem especially relevant to this thread.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can't fault an 18 year old policeman, who has a less than a 1 out of 100,000 chance of dying from a C.O.V.I.D-19 reinfection, risking a one in 10,000 chance of being hospitalized due to heart inflammation caused by an mRNA vaccinated.

I can. Anyone with that poor a grasp on critical thinking probably isn't cut out to be a cop.

BTW - 18? The median age for a cop in the US is 40, and the minimum age to even be eligible to enter Chicago's police academy is 21.

F.Y.I. A study conducted by researchers from the University of Missouri School of Medicine and MU Health Care found that among more than 9000 patients who had severe COVID-19, less than 1% contracted the illness again at approximately 3.5 months after an initial positive test.

Yes - that was the same study I mentioned earlier. About 0.7% - or 7,000 reinfected people (so far) out of every million who had COVID once.

That's a pretty high number, and since the protection of natural immunity tends to be better the more viral load the person was exposed to, we would expect the reinfection rate to be higher for people who had mild COVID... who I believe you suggested should also be exempt from the vaccine mandate, right?

BTW: a confounding factor when looking at severe cases: nobody who has long COVID symptoms bad enough that they can't work is currently working as a cop in Chicago.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would not consider reinfection of C.O.V.I.D.-19 as posing a significant health risk.

Even for the police officer yourself, you're wrong - of course - but I find it interesting that you haven't even considered the health risk that a COVID-positive cop holds for the community.

You do realize that physical distancing is often impossible in their job, and they'll frequently deal with vulnerable populations and people not wearing proper PPE, right?

A cop with COVID is an excellent vector for the disease.

 

[Koldo]

Nearly half of Chicago's Police force is set to go on unpaid leave this week in defiance of the city's C.O.V.I.D.-19 vaccine mandate. As much as I'd like most everybody to be vaccinated, I'd rather have full police protection by there being some on duty unvaccinated police than police response time doubled by unvaccinated police officers being put on unpaid leave. Police are essential to the safety of our community. I view police as often being society's last line of defense against people falling victim to violent crime. .Suppose, an elderly loved one of yours needed the police to come to her home in order to save her against a violent intruder. Suppose, she has to wait 10 minutes instead of 5 minutes for the police to get there, because half of her city's police force is out on unpaid leave due to her city's vaccine mandate. Would this be acceptable to you? I'd rather unvaccinated police come to her aid within 5 minutes than police who are vaccinated taking 10 minutes to get there. Most everybody I know is well immune against C.O.V.I.D.19 either by vaccine-induced immunity or by having been infected by the SARS-Cov2, however almost nobody is immune against being targeted by violent criminals. I'm urging mayor Lightfoot to please lift the city's vaccine mandate.

(*edit*) *I realize my poll question might have been poorly phrased. I don't mean longer police service response times due to police getting vaccine shots while on duty., I meant longer response times due to police who can serve on duty needing to have been vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.19. I think my poll question would have been better worded as Do you favor longer response times to be served by a vaccinated police officer? Sorry, I was not able to edit the pol question.*

How do I call a cop that is brave enough to daily face the risk of getting shot but not brave enough to take a vaccine because of a very slim risk associated with it? Stupid. If it was up to me, I would never allow stupid people to be cops. Way too dangerous.

 

[Suave]

Where in the world did you get that number?

Also, the chances of infecting someone else goes up if one hasn't had any of the vaccines as it takes longer for the antibodies to defeat the virus on its own.

Where in the world did you get that number?

Also, the chances of infecting someone else goes up if one hasn't had any of the vaccines as it takes longer for the antibodies to defeat the virus on its own.

Per CDC VAERS data Per CDC website,
"An elevated risk for myocarditis among mRNA COVID-19 vaccines has been observed, particularly in males aged 12–29 years." There were 923 males under age 30 who reportedly experienced myocarditis after getting mRNA vaccinated . I figure 923 males under age 30 out of there being approximately 10 million fully vaccinated males under age 30 equals nearly one out of 10,000.
SARS-CoV-2 antibodies protect from reinfection


Per CDC data, as of October 13,2021, only 419 people who were age 5 to age 18 died from C.O.V.I.D-19 I'm guessing there are around 60 million Americans who are in that age group. I figure 419 out of 60,000,000 is less than one out of 600,000.
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3

Edit : My bad, 21 is minimum age to serve as a Chicago Police Officer. The risk of death by C.O.V.I.D is 10 times greater for a 21 year old than the risk of death for people ages 5 to 18. However, with a one percent rate of reinfection, I figure the risk of death by C.O.V.I.D. 19 reinfection is 100 times less than the chance of death to somebody who had never contracted C.O.V.I.D-19 previously before being infected from SARS-Cov2, A 21 year old male then has approximately less than a one out of 10,000 chance of dying by C.O.V.I.D.-19, having been previously infected by C.O.V.I.D. reduces this 100 fold to less than a one out of a million chance of a 21 year old dying by a C.O.V.I.D.-19 reinfection.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Per CDC VAERS data Per CDC website,
"An elevated risk for myocarditis among mRNA COVID-19 vaccines has been observed, particularly in males aged 12–29 years." There were 923 males under age 30 who reportedly experienced myocarditis after getting mRNA vaccinated . I figure 923 males under age 30 out of there being approximately 10 million fully vaccinated males under age 30 equals nearly one out of 10,000.
SARS-CoV-2 antibodies protect from reinfection


Per CDC data, as of October 13,2021, only 419 people who were age 5 to age 18 died from C.O.V.I.D-19 I'm guessing there are around 60 million Americans who are in that age group. I figure 419 out of 60,000,000 is less than one out of 600,000.
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3

Educate yourself on your data source, please:

Don’t Fall for the ‘VAERS Scare’ Tactic

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-19-vaccines-as-dangerous-continue-apace-vaers-edition/

 

[Suave]

Even for the police officer yourself, you're wrong - of course - but I find it interesting that you haven't even considered the health risk that a COVID-positive cop holds for the community.

You do realize that physical distancing is often impossible in their job, and they'll frequently deal with vulnerable populations and people not wearing proper PPE, right?

A cop with COVID is an excellent vector for the disease.

In April 2020, I was able to shed the SARS-Cov2 without any symptoms of illness. My then wife had gotten really sick by me infecting her with SARS-Cov2. I did not know if my natural immunity against C.O.V.I.D.-19 could last more than a year. I chose to get MRNA vaccinated as soon as I was eligible the following year in April 2021 because I did not want to chance getting re-infected and once again spreading this awful highly contagious disease. Of course, I'd like police to be vaccinated against C.O.V.I.D.-19, but if they refuse to be vaccinated, I don't want them to leave the police force due to the city's vaccine mandate. I'd rather have the police fully staffed with perhaps some unvaccinated officers than have the police force reduced in half by only allowing vaccinated persons to serve and protect the community as police officers enforcing the law or combating violent crime. I'm confident the pandemic is finally now over in our community. We are at or near herd immunity, I'm afraid the city's vaccine mandate now is going to do more harm than good, I'm going to kindly urge Mayor Lightfoot to please lift the city's vaccine mandate.