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Featured Please Explain: Why is the Dogma that Sex Must be for Procreation an Intelligent View of Sex?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sunstone, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Please help me understand your reasoning: Why is the dogma that sex must be for procreation (in either whole or part) an intelligent and/or wise view of the purpose, meaning, legitimacy, and/or wisdom, etc of sex?

    [To be sure, claiming sex ought to be for procreation simply on the grounds that it functions as a means to procreation is to indulge oneself in the inexcusably sloppy naturalistic fallacy of logic, among other grievous and damning sins against reason and good sense.]
     
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  2. crossfire

    crossfire Antinomian feminist heretic freak ☿
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    I'm not saying this is a must today, since we have fairly reliable birth control available. However, before we had somewhat reliable birth control, it would be wise to reserve sex that leads to procreation specifically for procreation. (Unless of course, you don't mind surprises.) <edit to add> There is a variety of non-procreative sex available to consenting adults.

    Of course, your mileage may vary. (I'm a voluntary celibate, so your view may widely differ.)
     
    #2 crossfire, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Where did you learn such nonsense?
     
  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    It's called and e d u c a t i o n. Those who have a good one do not refer to it as "nonsense" -- only those who have a ****ty one call what they have "nonsense". What do you call yours? Oh wait! You just now told me.
     
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  5. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    From my understanding, sexual energy can either be spent in sexual activities or sublimated and transmuted and thus used for other purposes. Transmutation and Sublimation of Sexual Energies, by Roberto Assagioli as one web site discussing this.

    In addition, sexual energy is so strong that it can be a significant influence in building karma that has to be balanced at some later time. There are quite a few different expositions of this idea available via google.

    Part of this is that sex in a loving marriage is quite different karmically than promiscuous sex where self-gratification is the aim.

    Those who are interested and attracted to these ideas may make different choices than those who dismiss or are not interested in them. That's life.
     
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  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Who taught you that sex was only for procreation?
     
  7. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Where am I saying it is?
     
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  8. Jollybear

    Jollybear Hey

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    I met a Catholic woman once, she had a bus full of kids. They wer all hers. All because she did not believe in birth control, lol.

    She did try to have sex in those parts of the month that its hard to have a baby, but it didnt seam to work out enough.

    But, yea, if sex is pleasurable, then surely the creator wanted us to enjoy it and not just use it for procreation.
     
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  9. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    It is very difficult for us humans to think beyond the boxes we were taught as children to think in. It is very, very difficult for most people to see marriage for what it is. I think you would love Stephanie Coontz's book, "Marriage: A History".
     
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  10. sun rise

    sun rise "Let there be peace and love among all"
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    Reading just the summary I found, the history of marriage shows that our current conception is not historically universal.

    Maybe it's better for me to amend my prior statement to be:

    Part of this is that sex in a loving committed relationship is quite different karmically than promiscuous sex where self-gratification is the aim. Love rather than self-gratification is the root of my statement.
     
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  11. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Some catholics stick to that having sex is for making babies or the lite version which is every sexual encounter must be open to the possibility of pregnancy.
     
  12. Road Less Traveled

    Road Less Traveled Active Member

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    I can understand any position.

    Natalism. Antinatalism. Abortion.

    Sexual. Asexual.

    Sex is awesome. Sex is disgusting.

    Uncontrollable libido. Controllable libido.

    Marriage is awesome. Marriage is chains.

    Sex. Abstinence.

    Kids are awesome. Kids are burdens.

    Spill the seed. Don’t spill the seed.

    Have kids. Don’t have kids. Adopt kids.

    Pleasure. No pleasure.

    No birth control. Birth control.
     
    #12 Road Less Traveled, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  13. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    How about because, no matter what other pleasure or purpose you might get out of it, it's for procreation? I mean, really...unless there is something WRONG with one of you, or you actively seek to prevent it, or you are having homosexual sex, the odds are pretty good that procreation is going to happen.

    Given that, then procreation seems to be something that must be considered when considering having sex. If it must be considered...and prevented...then one must figure that whatever ELSE one gains from sex, procreation seems to be the main purpose.

    Indeed, many sociologists have figured that the reason sex is so much fun, and feels so good, is to keep the guy around and the family together...so that children are more likely to live through the first few years of their lives.

    I read one guy who proposed that the reason there are gay men who enjoy sex with one another is for procreation, also; it provides a sort of 'uncle' who isn't interested in the women, and thus causing conflict, but who WILL stick around and take care of the kids. Dunno about that one, but certain cultures take advantage of the idea.

    Sex...is basically about the kids. Making them, bearing them, raising them. Staying close as a unit so that the kids are more likely to live and be strong. So OF COURSE sex is pleasurable and useful for all sorts of things....but they all boil down to the children, at least, evolutionarily speaking.
     
    #13 dianaiad, Aug 11, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2019
  14. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Dogma?!? Its biological fact. Unless you can prove some other natural way to reproduce humans.
     
  15. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    Actually, I think that the odds aren't actually all that great. I mean if you suppose that there are great odds that a sexual act will result in procreation, then you must also suppose that the average family of 2 or 3, or maybe 4 or 5, have only ever gotten around to it several, or maybe a dozen times. Doesn't seem right to me, somehow. I suspect there's just a bit more of it going on...:rolleyes:
     
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  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    They say wolves and many other animals have
    a hierarchy that controls who has sex.

    It makes sense.

    Sex is very powerful, and it makes sense for
    human leaders of old to want to control that
    power as best they could.

    God-laws are for people to control other
    people.
     
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  17. dianaiad

    dianaiad Well-Known Member

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    True. Not every act of sex results in conception.

    Consider, however, the reason for other acts of sex...other than that it's fun and feels good.

    Aren't all of those reasons basically about getting, and keeping, people together somehow?
     
  18. HonestJoe

    HonestJoe Well-Known Member

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    From a species point of view and with the “in part” condition, it’s a fundamental statement of fact. Sex is for the purpose of procreation by definition. The pleasurable aspects are part of that purpose regardless of how we make use of them beyond that. The question is what we choose to do with that fact.

    I don’t think there is any problem with recognising it and indeed, I think it’s important to do so if we’re going to accept sexual activity for purely entertainment and recreational purposes too. There are a complex combination of positive, negative, neutral and mixed consequences for the complex mix of sexuality within our society and however we choose to address that, it needs to be done with a full acceptance of the fundamental realities, however much that might make things even more complicated and compromise our personal preferences. The problem is that there is a vast range of personal preferences, perceptions and biases which mean we can all reach very different conclusions in response to the questions this raises.

    My opinion for what it’s worth? By all means have recreational sex but don’t express surprise and don’t seek to minimise or dismiss the potential risks and consequences. To my mind, that is no different to all sorts of other natural processes we use or manipulate for our own entertainment; recreational drugs manipulating the natural chemical processes in our bodies for pleasure carries risks, recreational sports using our natural defensive and offensive capabilities and instincts for entertainment carries risks, even something like recreational study and intellectual endeavours can carry risks if taken to extremes of obsession and limited focus.

    We’re basically too smart for our own good. Our intelligence allows us to overrule our instincts and manipulate our natural abilities for individual short-term benefit but we don’t always consider the long-term consequences, individually or as a wider society and species.
     
  19. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The natural purpose of sex is procreation. Procreation requires a male and female since each contain half the DNA that is needed. The pleasure of sex, is like the carrot on the string, that leads the horse to water, so the species can perpetuate.

    Pleasure in humans replaced instinctive compulsion, so there would be more choice in terms of a suitable mate, to meet the needs of the primary objective. Once that choice was made desire/love would help to make each monogamous, since children are a long term effort that requires two or more people with different software output; male and female roles.

    The problem wth the carrot on the string, leading the primary objective, can be seen with another instinct, called hunger. Hunger is designed to meet the energy and nutrient needs of the body. Like sex, the joy and pleasure of eating leads the body to food so we will eat enough food. Compulsion changing to pleasure allowed humans to become omnivores; choice plus enough variety to meet the primary objective.

    The problem is, if you place the pleasure of eating before the needs of the body, many people will eat too much of the wrong tasty things, causing obesity and health issues. You cannot count on intelligence getting it correct, if you favorite food is deep fried lard balls. Intelligence will try to rationalize its pleasure, as this topic suggests. The best foods for the body do not have to be rationalized since they stand on their own based on science. Science can help the primary objective lead your pleasures.

    The current fad of fluid sexuality is analogous to using pleasure to justify a diet of fast food, since it contradicts the biology of the primary objective. This is more due a software glitch; psychological, rather than to biological reality.

    I trace this change back to social experiments that Liberal parents did on their small children over the past several decades; induced software glitch. The experiments assumed that the traditional sexual roles where a social construct. Therefore, they tried to alter the traditional construct, by having boys play with dolls and other things that had been done with the girls, and vice versa. Now they claim the result is natural. It is a social construct that has induced a software glitch that led to a more dissociated sexual state, than shown by traditional. Traditional was healthier and closer to the primary; real science sex diet.
     
  20. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
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    Until you grasp that your post is one sustained, muddled, ridiculous naturalistic fallacy, you are worth not a moment more of my time -- nor shall you get any.
     
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