Pharaohs, Atheists, and Hardened Hearts

[jonathan180iq]

The only way for God to have stopped sin was to kill the free thinker on the spot. He designed a free being and the presence of sin, is the biggest evidence that he truly was designed free. Had God destroyed Lucifer on the spot after all of the controversy he'd started in Heaven, the angels and heavenly creatures who had never known sin or a bad thing, would have become afraid. They would have completely lacked understanding and would have served God no longer out of pure love for him, but out of fear. Lucifer had sparked enough division in heaven to recruit 1/3 of God's heavenly angels to believe the things he was saying about God. And his harsh rule with having to have things all his way. This was an intelligent being. Yet he was not more intelligent than God, because of his pride and love for himself he wanted to be lifted up, worshiped as though he was god's equal.

He wanted to prove his brilliance against the brilliance of gods, but he was not a god and had no knowledge of good and evil at that point. He only knew what he was feeling inside, which was pride and envy. He never knew that sin would turn out to be as destructive as it is today, because he was a perfect being from a perfect place. God tried to warn him of this, but he hardened his own heart for fear of being shamed before all those who looked up to him, and although he realized his error he pressed on until war broke out in heaven. He was kicked to the Earth. And because sin had broken out in God's Kingdom, it was time for God's newest creation to be tested in loyalty. Had they passed then there would have been no choice but to sentence Lucifer and the fallen angels. But because we failed, there was a new set of eyes towards the innocent new creation God had just made and their small choice to eat a fruit against the will of God.

All eyes waited to see God who had been accused and put on trial response. Up until this point everyone just assumed he was good and loving, and was happy in perfection, but now God had to live it out in the face of a horrendous situation. This was fine, because his very essence is made of LOVE. God is Love. He knew before he built our world we would chose to side with the adversary and he already knew he would love us anyway, therefore he made a plan for the salvation and redemption of every single human of mankind to be cleansed of sin, in order to remain in spirit with him when the war was over. Jesus.

Time with sin is continuing in order to save humans. The fallen angels are already sentenced they have no salvation and they will be destroyed. That is truly what hell is for. Humans however can choose Jesus, they can't be free themselves from sin, sin is to strong within our flesh and design but we can choose to die to our own desires and pick up Jesus' desires which will make his death our own, and give us strength to no longer side with the enemy of God but to come back under his order before he finally destroys all sin for good.

God allows suffering for 2 reasons. 1.) It is free will. It literally is what man chose, even unknowingly with our disobedience. But knowingly we still are breaking his law even today. If we kept his law as a whole man would not have a world like this. But we keep our own laws. It also shows all eyes fallen and unfallen why sin can not be permitted, and why he is all knowing and should not be challenged. It also proves his true love and not just rule over his creation, but love and servitude towards his creation. He laid down his life to redeem people who would be sentenced to a life of suffering caused by sin and then death so that the suffering could be temporary even though it is rightfully given because of our own collective choices. And death will not hold us in the grave but those who die in Christ will be raised to live forever. 2.) Because of his love, he is very very long suffering. He wants all humans alive to have every single last chance possible to turn and repent. To want to stop loving sin and obey his commandments. He will wait until the last moment until he just can not wait anymore. Thats when the planet begins to hate Christians so much that they attempt to kill us all and teach every other religion but his truth. Man will have made their permanent decision over the entire planet and once the authority or world order of this planet has spoken then God will judge the planet and save those who accepted the gift of Jesus.

That all is happening now. Lucifer hates you regardless of your religion even if you serve him, because without God he can not love he is the opposite of everything God is, but also because HE IS JEALOUS. God had no salvation for him or the other fallen angels. Their penalty is sealed. How can this ignorant creation made from dirt of the ground be more important than us? We run circles around them and he saves them? He even gave them the ability to procreate in his image...etc etc. Seriously he hates humanity and is working so hard to make God and Jesus seem fake and insignificant. He smears Gods character just like he did in Heaven before the fall. But people will see and all of Heaven will see and remember Earth's History and all the hateful suffering and when it is over and sin is gone, no one will ever doubt God EVER again. They will trust he is all knowing and his way is perfect. And this will be a small blimp in time of forever. Which commandment of the 10 would cause a sinful world? It is not the commandments that cause suffering it is the individual will and greed of evil and mankind stemmed from the very first rebellious heart, Lucifer.

Awesome!

Can you tell me more about Hercules and his Perils? I find those stories much more interesting and fulfilling.

 

[Ingledsva]

I see where this is going, and I am hesitant to respond, simply because it seems that you have no understanding of the concept of what sin is. You do not know how it works, and you do not understand righteousness. This is apparent not because you disagree, and have a legitimate concern which is, the view point that God purposely used Pharaoh as an undeserving pawn, hatefully. Rather, because you make the statement, "The murder of innocent children would make God out to be a Psycho Murderer." With you lacking basic understanding in these things along side of assuming God is a Psycho Murderer, I am afraid you have no interest in learning and understanding but rather would like to prove forcefully your opinion that God is a Psycho Murderer. I for one can not debate you regarding rather or not God is a Psycho Murderer . I'd be foolish, clearly you have no reverence towards the thought that you at minimum could be wrong and if you are that is an extremely detrimental thing to say.

This is NOT the only story in Tanakh where YHVH MURDERS the INNOCENT for OTHER PEOPLES supposed crimes.

We also have the flood story, and YHVH murdering King David's INNOCENT BABY for the crimes of the father, etc.

Also I never said Pharaoh wasn't evil! And the Hebrew were murdering and keeping slaves just like the Egyptians.

And the story DOES SPECIFICALLY say YHVH made him do this! THEN murders people! That is true psycho murder.

However, not only that it is my opinion that your view is biased and shallow even while lacking deeper insight. I've already said many things, I hope that you can reread it for better clarity, as I explain in detail how God goes about hardening a man's heart. What that means and how it affects the individual who has chosen to be outside of the proclamation of God's Divinity.

Your "explanation" about how God "goes about" hardening hearts - is your OPINION only. It says nothing of the sort in Tanakh.

Those first three lines are very specific -

Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:4 And Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgment.

We are specifically told that YHVH tells him very specifically what to say, - and then YHVH says he won't let "that" happen, - so he can do his crap - and then he murders the innocent First Born.

So YHVH sets the scene, tells Aaron to say "make an alteration," then YHVH prevents any alteration, and then YHVH murders the INNOCENT, because HE-HIMSELF prevented the scene from being altered. Psycho.

I'll leave you with this, if a person has cancer on a part of their body and the doctor feels there is no other option other than to amputate the entire body part given the circumstance: would you feel that the doctor was a Psycho Murderer because there was some non cancerous tissue surrounding the cancerous growth? Would you accept the doctors perspective that the healthy tissue, will in fact likely become cancerous in the future if not precancerous because of the current state of affairs that the patient was currently in? Sin is a cancer. It can not be spared, until then it will be treated in anyway God sees fit.

First off - PEOPLE ARE NOT DISEASES!!!!!

Secondly - All through Tanakh we are told of the HEBREW SINS AGAINST YHVH! So this is bull.

The Bible says the Hebrew marched, destroying and taking other nation's lands, and people. They murdered, plundered, took slaves, raped captives, etc.

But know in the end because it challenges the wholesome and perfect operation of God's Kingdom, it will be destroyed, and the only way to prevent that, is to repent, turn from it, and be cleansed through the blood of Christ. If you don't like that idea, well you can do what others have before you and attempt to be your own god. But there is only one God and all who oppose him will be dealt with justly. For the sake of those of us who love him, and cry out for a sinless world.

You folks are so funny!

Choosing another religion, or no religion, is not choosing to be your own God. Nor is such in any way "sin."

That - "there is only one God" - is YOUR opinion - with no proof for your extreme position ("all who oppose him will be dealt with justly.")

Children are conceived in sin,

That is a BUNCH OF you know what! YHVH said -

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

It doesn't say -

Gen 1:28 And God condemned/tricked them, and God said, multiply with sinful fornication, and replenish the earth, ... (So I can later KILL you sinful offspring)

and God does not deny that their are generations of sinners who hate him and do not keep his commandments visiting their sins and dealing with them however he sees fit. It's awful, it's horrendous that the world is in this current state, but it is not God's doing, it was man who decided to be their own god and it was man who got spiritually taken over by the adversary and used as a puppet to destroy all that is righteous and go against God and become his enemy. Just as any being who is forced into war has to protect their kingdom against the enemy, so does God. Yet he is the only being who has power to wipe the enemy out immediately but instead chooses to suffer long so that even one might come to repentance, and be spared instead. Sin is a cancer, it takes over there is nothing that can stop it or control it but the law of God and obedience towards it. It ensures that no one is hurt. Because currently the wages of sin is death then death remains until sin is swallowed up in victory. Unfortunately, that includes any flesh that has been exposed to sin which we all are born in sin. All of our bodies can be subject to death. Death is not something to fear, when you are a Christian, raise your children in the fear of the Lord. Again, it's awful, but innocent is an improper adjective in this case if you understand Sin.

That is quite funny to me!

I see the results of the - MY GOD ONLY - religions of Abraham, - still fighting, murdering, and trying to take over the earth - to this very day!

PS. Break up your wall-of-text posts - so we can read them easier, and answer quicker.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

The only way for God to have stopped sin was to kill the free thinker on the spot. He designed a free being and the presence of sin, is the biggest evidence that he truly was designed free. Had God destroyed Lucifer on the spot after all of the controversy he'd started in Heaven, the angels and heavenly creatures who had never known sin or a bad thing, would have become afraid. They would have completely lacked understanding and would have served God no longer out of pure love for him, but out of fear. Lucifer had sparked enough division in heaven to recruit 1/3 of God's heavenly angels to believe the things he was saying about God. And his harsh rule with having to have things all his way. This was an intelligent being. Yet he was not more intelligent than God, because of his pride and love for himself he wanted to be lifted up, worshiped as though he was god's equal.....

WOW! We don't even have to read the rest.

1. That first sentence is baloney by the FACT - that it is NOT free will, - if you are MURDERED for not choosing that God's name, or religion!

2. There is no evil Satan-being called Lucifer - in Tanakh. Also - Satan was a servant of YHVH, doing YHVH's will, testing.

Tanakh doesn't say 1/3 of Angels fell anywhere with Satan. The much-much-MUCH later, -end of the line, - written by who knows who, - not originally accepted, - Christian - Revelations, - means squat, as it doesn't jive with Tanakh about Satan.

*

 

[ukok102nak]

Exodus 10:1 (NIV) says:

The the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.

Is it customary for a deity to cause a human to be stubborn, and be unwilling to see the truth or make proper decisions?

If so, is this how a Theist might see an Atheist, or justify their position?

If a deity wanted to cause its human followers to think through their beliefs, and produce the best possible arguments to be disseminated among many others (to reap a larger harvest, so to speak), then wouldn't it be a good idea to harden the hearts of a few, if only to cause them to serve as foils used to sharpen the skills of a theist debater?

Is that what an atheist is? A heart hardened by a deity to serve its purposes?

I'm an atheist, BTW. Just curious if anyone has considered the atheist position like this before.

~;> not at all
as we look in different angle
for during that time
it was not for humans to do the bidding
but for those gods only

remember
those egyptian have their own gods too
and performed their own magics to counter the power of the god of hebrews
and if we are directing it to the bible
perhaps thats one of the nearest posible reason we could share unto this thread


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[metis]

The Passover narrative has pretty much always bothered me at the literal level because it posits God as actually being a genocidal maniac by feeding conditions that led to the killing of so many, including children. I personally do not accept the scriptures at the literal level, plus I have no clue as to whether the Bible or any other scriptures are "divinely inspired".

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> as they say
we never own this temporal life
for we dont have even have that knowledge to bring life unto its existence

thats why as humans
to create our own universe is imposible literally
and
the least thing that we could do is to reason out then ask why and how


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[Kuzcotopia]

The Passover narrative has pretty much always bothered me at the literal level because it posits God as actually being a genocidal maniac by feeding conditions that led to the killing of so many, including children. I personally do not accept the scriptures at the literal level, plus I have no clue as to whether the Bible or any other scriptures are "divinely inspired".

Agreed.

If I were a theist who accepted basic Christian tenets, I would absolutely have to find a way to either explain that this is a myth and it did not happen (and therefore does not accurately depict the real God at all), or I'md have to accept that God Is not good.

I can think of no other explaintion. Anything along the lines of "God changed his ways," means that he is either fallable, stupid, untrustworthy, or any/all three combined.

 

[viole]

Edit: I meant which Pharaoh's heart was hardened?

Did Pharaohs have more than one heart?

Ciao

- viole