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Pharaohs, Atheists, and Hardened Hearts

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Exodus 10:1 (NIV) says:

The the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.

Is it customary for a deity to cause a human to be stubborn, and be unwilling to see the truth or make proper decisions?

If so, is this how a Theist might see an Atheist, or justify their position?

If a deity wanted to cause its human followers to think through their beliefs, and produce the best possible arguments to be disseminated among many others (to reap a larger harvest, so to speak), then wouldn't it be a good idea to harden the hearts of a few, if only to cause them to serve as foils used to sharpen the skills of a theist debater?

Is that what an atheist is? A heart hardened by a deity to serve its purposes?

I'm an atheist, BTW. Just curious if anyone has considered the atheist position like this before.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't read the Bible, but it doesn't seem to me that the passage is saying anything about (dis)belief there, unless there are parts you left out that indicate that. "Hardened" reads to me as "I can do these miracles in front of them without them freaking out and screaming like pathetic children." :shrug:

As a non-Christian, of course I wouldn't use a text I do not read nor follow to think about atheists.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Exodus 10:1 (NIV) says:

The the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.

Is it customary for a deity to cause a human to be stubborn, and be unwilling to see the truth or make proper decisions?

If so, is this how a Theist might see an Atheist, or justify their position?

If a deity wanted to cause its human followers to think through their beliefs, and produce the best possible arguments to be disseminated among many others (to reap a larger harvest, so to speak), then wouldn't it be a good idea to harden the hearts of a few, if only to cause them to serve as foils used to sharpen the skills of a theist debater?

Is that what an atheist is? A heart hardened by a deity to serve its purposes?

I'm an atheist, BTW. Just curious if anyone has considered the atheist position like this before.

It also says YHVH hardened Pharaoh's heart, - so he wouldn't let the people go, - and then YHVH murders the innocent children - because Pharaoh wouldn't let them go. Just plain Psycho!

Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:4 And Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great

"YHVH says HE will harden pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the Hebrew go, - so he can flash some special effects, - and LAY HIS HANDS ON Egypt.

He then proceeds to send wave after wave of horrors on ALL the people.

Ending with the MURDER of their first born!

All because ONE person - Pharaoh - wouldn't let the Hebrew go, - when YHVH was PREVENTING Pharaoh form letting them go!

Again, that would be Psycho Murder!


*
 
Exodus 10:1 (NIV) says:

The the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.

Is it customary for a deity to cause a human to be stubborn, and be unwilling to see the truth or make proper decisions?

If so, is this how a Theist might see an Atheist, or justify their position?

If a deity wanted to cause its human followers to think through their beliefs, and produce the best possible arguments to be disseminated among many others (to reap a larger harvest, so to speak), then wouldn't it be a good idea to harden the hearts of a few, if only to cause them to serve as foils used to sharpen the skills of a theist debater?

Is that what an atheist is? A heart hardened by a deity to serve its purposes?

I'm an atheist, BTW. Just curious if anyone has considered the atheist position like this before.
It is customary for The True and Living God to do has he pleases. But to answer your question more specifically regarding Pharaoh as simply as I can, the answer is God governed his people and put them first at the expense of the Pharaohs Free Will. When you do not serve God in your heart and you have chosen to in fact be against him then you are subject to your own powers, even against the True God Maker of Heaven and Earth. Pharaoh claimed even to be God, and if he was then his heart could not have been hardened. However there was a reason God hardened Pharaohs heart and there was also a reason why it was not a violation or the wrong thing to do which is as follows:
1. God hardened Pharaohs heart because God's people had been in bondage for 400 years. They had gone generation after generation in captivity, learning the Pagan ways of the society of the people they admired and wished to be, Egyptians, their authority. They had stories and history passed on of their God, the God of Abraham. However they lost their walking experience generations prior many of them. (which is why they were captive in the first place they continuously rebelled.) God knew that when he set them free and reclaimed them he would have to make it clear to them all over again who he was. Which is, I AM. Which he stated to Moses. He needed them to know that unlike Egyptian God's and idols which they could see he was very much alive and all powerful although they could not see him. He was preparing their hearts to come back to his law and his way. What way better to do this than to show them who he was by taking down the most powerful figure they knew, who even claimed to be God, whose word was written and it was deemed law as a god. Which brings me to point #2.
2. Pharaoh in his heart never cared about the people, God's word, or letting them go. His stubbornness and pride laughed in the face of the command of God therefore he willingly wanted to be hardened anyway. It is humbling yourself before God that gives a human man strength to obey God and do what is right. The power of God within him, because naturally the spirit of man hates God and is at war with God. But when he humbles himself and says help me do the right thing, God's Spirit enters him and gives him strength that he could not have on his own. If Pharaoh did not ask for God's help to obey and in his heart wanted to disobey. God only controlled the situation for the advantage of his people. Pharaoh had no control because he was a man and not a God. He went through plague after plague and could not stop his own pride in order to save his Kingdom and finally his own son. He could not foresee the destruction and could not control his own spirit to give in and recognize defeat. God could have helped him to do that. But his heart did not want that. So when the Bible says God hardened Pharaohs heart, it is essentially saying. God, who made Pharaoh who is I AM did not minister to Pharaohs spirit and attempt to soften him. He used Pharaohs blasphemous spirit to further his own purpose which was regain the faith of his people. He never would have done that if Pharaoh had of had a repented heart. But he didn't and by default was an enemy not only against God but a larger purpose, which was his people. Technically he didn't do anything to Pharaoh he simply left him in his faults and weakness of a Man and He resided, God over him. I talk more of how God gives people over in my video Are you a Sorcerer? which I will link. But also in my video Flesh Vs Spirit if you check out my Channel on YouTube.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
It is customary for The True and Living God to do has he pleases. But to answer your question more specifically regarding Pharaoh as simply as I can, the answer is God governed his people and put them first at the expense of the Pharaohs Free Will. When you do not serve God in your heart and you have chosen to in fact be against him then you are subject to your own powers, even against the True God Maker of Heaven and Earth. Pharaoh claimed even to be God, and if he was then his heart could not have been hardened. However there was a reason God hardened Pharaohs heart and there was also a reason why it was not a violation or the wrong thing to do which is as follows...

It says YHVH hardened Pharaoh's heart, - so he wouldn't let the people go, - and then YHVH murders the INNOCENT children - because Pharaoh wouldn't let them go.

This text and others like it saying YHVH murders innocent children - for the "supposed" crimes of adults, - shows this YHVH to be a murderous psycho.

Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:4 And Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great

"YHVH says HE will harden pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the Hebrew go, - so he can flash some special effects, - and LAY HIS HANDS ON Egypt.

He then proceeds to send wave after wave of horrors on ALL the people.

Ending with the MURDER of the first born!

All because ONE person - Pharaoh - wouldn't let the Hebrew go, - when YHVH was PREVENTING Pharaoh form letting them go!

Again, that would be Psycho Murder!

*
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Exodus 10:1 (NIV) says:

The the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.

Is it customary for a deity to cause a human to be stubborn, and be unwilling to see the truth or make proper decisions?

If so, is this how a Theist might see an Atheist, or justify their position?

If a deity wanted to cause its human followers to think through their beliefs, and produce the best possible arguments to be disseminated among many others (to reap a larger harvest, so to speak), then wouldn't it be a good idea to harden the hearts of a few, if only to cause them to serve as foils used to sharpen the skills of a theist debater?

Is that what an atheist is? A heart hardened by a deity to serve its purposes?

I'm an atheist, BTW. Just curious if anyone has considered the atheist position like this before.
IMO, in early Buddhism, a deity who abuses his power to do such a thing will reap the reward of his negative kamma in due time.
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
I don't read the Bible, but it doesn't seem to me that the passage is saying anything about (dis)belief there, unless there are parts you left out that indicate that. "Hardened" reads to me as "I can do these miracles in front of them without them freaking out and screaming like pathetic children." :shrug:

As a non-Christian, of course I wouldn't use a text I do not read nor follow to think about atheists.
I actually like your answer as Christian
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
I actually like your answer as Christian
I don't read the Bible, but it doesn't seem to me that the passage is saying anything about (dis)belief there, unless there are parts you left out that indicate that. "Hardened" reads to me as "I can do these miracles in front of them without them freaking out and screaming like pathetic children." :shrug:

As a non-Christian, of course I wouldn't use a text I do not read nor follow to think about atheists.
It says YHVH hardened Pharaoh's heart, - so he wouldn't let the people go, - and then YHVH murders the INNOCENT children - because Pharaoh wouldn't let them go.

This text and others like it saying YHVH murders innocent children - for the "supposed" crimes of adults, - shows this YHVH to be a murderous psycho.

Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:4 And Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great

"YHVH says HE will harden pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the Hebrew go, - so he can flash some special effects, - and LAY HIS HANDS ON Egypt.

He then proceeds to send wave after wave of horrors on ALL the people.

Ending with the MURDER of the first born!

All because ONE person - Pharaoh - wouldn't let the Hebrew go, - when YHVH was PREVENTING Pharaoh form letting them go!

Again, that would be Psycho Murder!

*
 
It says YHVH hardened Pharaoh's heart, - so he wouldn't let the people go, - and then YHVH murders the INNOCENT children - because Pharaoh wouldn't let them go.

This text and others like it saying YHVH murders innocent children - for the "supposed" crimes of adults, - shows this YHVH to be a murderous psycho.

Exo 7:2 Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he send the children of Israel out of his land.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exo 7:4 And Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great

"YHVH says HE will harden pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the Hebrew go, - so he can flash some special effects, - and LAY HIS HANDS ON Egypt.

He then proceeds to send wave after wave of horrors on ALL the people.

Ending with the MURDER of the first born!

All because ONE person - Pharaoh - wouldn't let the Hebrew go, - when YHVH was PREVENTING Pharaoh form letting them go!

Again, that would be Psycho Murder!

*
I see where this is going, and I am hesitant to respond, simply because it seems that you have no understanding of the concept of what sin is. You do not know how it works, and you do not understand righteousness. This is apparent not because you disagree, and have a legitimate concern which is, the view point that God purposely used Pharaoh as an undeserving pawn, hatefully. Rather, because you make the statement, "The murder of innocent children would make God out to be a Psycho Murderer." With you lacking basic understanding in these things along side of assuming God is a Psycho Murderer, I am afraid you have no interest in learning and understanding but rather would like to prove forcefully your opinion that God is a Psycho Murderer. I for one can not debate you regarding rather or not God is a Psycho Murderer . I'd be foolish, clearly you have no reverence towards the thought that you at minimum could be wrong and if you are that is an extremely detrimental thing to say. However, not only that it is my opinion that your view is biased and shallow even while lacking deeper insight. I've already said many things, I hope that you can reread it for better clarity, as I explain in detail how God goes about hardening a man's heart. What that means and how it affects the individual who has chosen to be outside of the proclamation of God's Divinity. I'll leave you with this, if a person has cancer on a part of their body and the doctor feels there is no other option other than to amputate the entire body part given the circumstance: would you feel that the doctor was a Psycho Murderer because there was some non cancerous tissue surrounding the cancerous growth? Would you accept the doctors perspective that the healthy tissue, will in fact likely become cancerous in the future if not precancerous because of the current state of affairs that the patient was currently in? Sin is a cancer. It can not be spared, until then it will be treated in anyway God sees fit. But know in the end because it challenges the wholesome and perfect operation of God's Kingdom, it will be destroyed, and the only way to prevent that, is to repent, turn from it, and be cleansed through the blood of Christ. If you don't like that idea, well you can do what others have before you and attempt to be your own god. But there is only one God and all who oppose him will be dealt with justly. For the sake of those of us who love him, and cry out for a sinless world. Children are conceived in sin, and God does not deny that their are generations of sinners who hate him and do not keep his commandments visiting their sins and dealing with them however he sees fit. It's awful, it's horrendous that the world is in this current state, but it is not God's doing, it was man who decided to be their own god and it was man who got spiritually taken over by the adversary and used as a puppet to destroy all that is righteous and go against God and become his enemy. Just as any being who is forced into war has to protect their kingdom against the enemy, so does God. Yet he is the only being who has power to wipe the enemy out immediately but instead chooses to suffer long so that even one might come to repentance, and be spared instead. Sin is a cancer, it takes over there is nothing that can stop it or control it but the law of God and obedience towards it. It ensures that no one is hurt. Because currently the wages of sin is death then death remains until sin is swallowed up in victory. Unfortunately, that includes any flesh that has been exposed to sin which we all are born in sin. All of our bodies can be subject to death. Death is not something to fear, when you are a Christian, raise your children in the fear of the Lord. Again, it's awful, but innocent is an improper adjective in this case if you understand Sin.
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
I see where this is going, and I am hesitant to respond, simply because it seems that you have no understanding of the concept of what sin is. You do not know how it works, and you do not understand righteousness. This is apparent not because you disagree, and have a legitimate concern which is, the view point that God purposely used Pharaoh as an undeserving pawn, hatefully. Rather, because you make the statement, "The murder of innocent children would make God out to be a Psycho Murderer." With you lacking basic understanding in these things along side of assuming God is a Psycho Murderer, I am afraid you have no interest in learning and understanding but rather would like to prove forcefully your opinion that God is a Psycho Murderer. I for one can not debate you regarding rather or not God is a Psycho Murderer . I'd be foolish, clearly you have no reverence towards the thought that you at minimum could be wrong and if you are that is an extremely detrimental thing to say. However, not only that it is my opinion that your view is biased and shallow even while lacking deeper insight. I've already said many things, I hope that you can reread it for better clarity, as I explain in detail how God goes about hardening a man's heart. What that means and how it affects the individual who has chosen to be outside of the proclamation of God's Divinity. I'll leave you with this, if a person has cancer on a part of their body and the doctor feels there is no other option other than to amputate the entire body part given the circumstance: would you feel that the doctor was a Psycho Murderer because there was some non cancerous tissue surrounding the cancerous growth? Would you accept the doctors perspective that the healthy tissue, will in fact likely become cancerous in the future if not precancerous because of the current state of affairs that the patient was currently in? Sin is a cancer. It can not be spared, until then it will be treated in anyway God sees fit. But know in the end because it challenges the wholesome and perfect operation of God's Kingdom, it will be destroyed, and the only way to prevent that, is to repent, turn from it, and be cleansed through the blood of Christ. If you don't like that idea, well you can do what others have before you and attempt to be your own god. But there is only one God and all who oppose him will be dealt with justly. For the sake of those of us who love him, and cry out for a sinless world. Children are conceived in sin, and God does not deny that their are generations of sinners who hate him and do not keep his commandments visiting their sins and dealing with them however he sees fit. It's awful, it's horrendous that the world is in this current state, but it is not God's doing, it was man who decided to be their own god and it was man who got spiritually taken over by the adversary and used as a puppet to destroy all that is righteous and go against God and become his enemy. Just as any being who is forced into war has to protect their kingdom against the enemy, so does God. Yet he is the only being who has power to wipe the enemy out immediately but instead chooses to suffer long so that even one might come to repentance, and be spared instead. Sin is a cancer, it takes over there is nothing that can stop it or control it but the law of God and obedience towards it. It ensures that no one is hurt. Because currently the wages of sin is death then death remains until sin is swallowed up in victory. Unfortunately, that includes any flesh that has been exposed to sin which we all are born in sin. All of our bodies can be subject to death. Death is not something to fear, when you are a Christian, raise your children in the fear of the Lord. Again, it's awful, but innocent is an improper adjective in this case if you understand Sin.

Interesting analogy.

If I were God, I'm not sure Cancer would exist in my perfect kingdom.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Exodus 10:1 (NIV) says:

The the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.

Is it customary for a deity to cause a human to be stubborn, and be unwilling to see the truth or make proper decisions?

If so, is this how a Theist might see an Atheist, or justify their position?

If a deity wanted to cause its human followers to think through their beliefs, and produce the best possible arguments to be disseminated among many others (to reap a larger harvest, so to speak), then wouldn't it be a good idea to harden the hearts of a few, if only to cause them to serve as foils used to sharpen the skills of a theist debater?

Is that what an atheist is? A heart hardened by a deity to serve its purposes?

I'm an atheist, BTW. Just curious if anyone has considered the atheist position like this before.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"Then Jehovah said to Moses: “Go in to Pharʹaoh, for I have allowed his heart and the hearts of his servants to become unresponsive, so that I may display these signs of mine right before him."
Pharaoh's heart was already arrogant. He was considered a living god. Jehovah allowed this attitude to fully manifest itself, IMO, and in this way fully display Jehovah's almighty and irresistible power over any opposers.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't read the Bible, but it doesn't seem to me that the passage is saying anything about (dis)belief there, unless there are parts you left out that indicate that. "Hardened" reads to me as "I can do these miracles in front of them without them freaking out and screaming like pathetic children." :shrug:

As a non-Christian, of course I wouldn't use a text I do not read nor follow to think about atheists.
Later on in the passage, the phrase is used to explain why Pharoah refused to let the Israelites go, despite their suffering under Egyptian slavery and the suffering of the Egyptians under the plagues sent by Jehovah. I always took it to mean something like "Jehovah saw to it that he would not be moved" or "Jehovah took away his compassion."
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
It also says YHVH hardened Pharaoh's heart, - so he wouldn't let the people go, - and then YHVH murders the innocent children - because Pharaoh wouldn't let them go. Just plain Psycho!
Give it a rest. :D It's no less stylized hyperbole than is Ex 1:22.
 
If you were god, you would actually exist.
The only way for God to have stopped sin was to kill the free thinker on the spot. He designed a free being and the presence of sin, is the biggest evidence that he truly was designed free. Had God destroyed Lucifer on the spot after all of the controversy he'd started in Heaven, the angels and heavenly creatures who had never known sin or a bad thing, would have become afraid. They would have completely lacked understanding and would have served God no longer out of pure love for him, but out of fear. Lucifer had sparked enough division in heaven to recruit 1/3 of God's heavenly angels to believe the things he was saying about God. And his harsh rule with having to have things all his way. This was an intelligent being. Yet he was not more intelligent than God, because of his pride and love for himself he wanted to be lifted up, worshiped as though he was god's equal.

He wanted to prove his brilliance against the brilliance of gods, but he was not a god and had no knowledge of good and evil at that point. He only knew what he was feeling inside, which was pride and envy. He never knew that sin would turn out to be as destructive as it is today, because he was a perfect being from a perfect place. God tried to warn him of this, but he hardened his own heart for fear of being shamed before all those who looked up to him, and although he realized his error he pressed on until war broke out in heaven. He was kicked to the Earth. And because sin had broken out in God's Kingdom, it was time for God's newest creation to be tested in loyalty. Had they passed then there would have been no choice but to sentence Lucifer and the fallen angels. But because we failed, there was a new set of eyes towards the innocent new creation God had just made and their small choice to eat a fruit against the will of God.

All eyes waited to see God who had been accused and put on trial response. Up until this point everyone just assumed he was good and loving, and was happy in perfection, but now God had to live it out in the face of a horrendous situation. This was fine, because his very essence is made of LOVE. God is Love. He knew before he built our world we would chose to side with the adversary and he already knew he would love us anyway, therefore he made a plan for the salvation and redemption of every single human of mankind to be cleansed of sin, in order to remain in spirit with him when the war was over. Jesus.

Time with sin is continuing in order to save humans. The fallen angels are already sentenced they have no salvation and they will be destroyed. That is truly what hell is for. Humans however can choose Jesus, they can't be free themselves from sin, sin is to strong within our flesh and design but we can choose to die to our own desires and pick up Jesus' desires which will make his death our own, and give us strength to no longer side with the enemy of God but to come back under his order before he finally destroys all sin for good.

God allows suffering for 2 reasons. 1.) It is free will. It literally is what man chose, even unknowingly with our disobedience. But knowingly we still are breaking his law even today. If we kept his law as a whole man would not have a world like this. But we keep our own laws. It also shows all eyes fallen and unfallen why sin can not be permitted, and why he is all knowing and should not be challenged. It also proves his true love and not just rule over his creation, but love and servitude towards his creation. He laid down his life to redeem people who would be sentenced to a life of suffering caused by sin and then death so that the suffering could be temporary even though it is rightfully given because of our own collective choices. And death will not hold us in the grave but those who die in Christ will be raised to live forever. 2.) Because of his love, he is very very long suffering. He wants all humans alive to have every single last chance possible to turn and repent. To want to stop loving sin and obey his commandments. He will wait until the last moment until he just can not wait anymore. Thats when the planet begins to hate Christians so much that they attempt to kill us all and teach every other religion but his truth. Man will have made their permanent decision over the entire planet and once the authority or world order of this planet has spoken then God will judge the planet and save those who accepted the gift of Jesus.

That all is happening now. Lucifer hates you regardless of your religion even if you serve him, because without God he can not love he is the opposite of everything God is, but also because HE IS JEALOUS. God had no salvation for him or the other fallen angels. Their penalty is sealed. How can this ignorant creation made from dirt of the ground be more important than us? We run circles around them and he saves them? He even gave them the ability to procreate in his image...etc etc. Seriously he hates humanity and is working so hard to make God and Jesus seem fake and insignificant. He smears Gods character just like he did in Heaven before the fall. But people will see and all of Heaven will see and remember Earth's History and all the hateful suffering and when it is over and sin is gone, no one will ever doubt God EVER again. They will trust he is all knowing and his way is perfect. And this will be a small blimp in time of forever. Which commandment of the 10 would cause a sinful world? It is not the commandments that cause suffering it is the individual will and greed of evil and mankind stemmed from the very first rebellious heart, Lucifer.
 

Onyx

Active Member
Premium Member
The the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them.
Edit: I meant which Pharaoh's heart was hardened?
 

Kuzcotopia

If you can read this, you are as lucky as I am.
Edit: I meant which Pharaoh's heart was hardened?

I dunno.

It'd be like reading The Odysssy, when the hero ties himself to the mast as listens to the sirens. . . And you ask "which sirens?"

It's mythology.
 
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